Re: Rail S America [21.11.13] BETA READY

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Re: Rail S America [24.6.13] V13 Small

Postby greenoaks on Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:24 pm

cairnswk wrote:
greenoaks wrote:
cairnswk wrote:What if put into the legend wording:
"Cities with 2 & 3 line terminus stations have
markets which are popular with tourists."

Will that help?

Rail Australia is a little different & easier because of it. It is the same 3 images so i know what to look for. Those 3 images are listed in the legend.

Here i saw the legend had a hat (1 hat) and found it, not realising for a while there where different hats. so i don't know for sure if i found all the hats.

"Cities with 2 & 3 ........" is much clearer than "Some stations .....". Will it fit?


OK, hats are listed.
Notation is changed.
Hope this makes it easier to understand. :)

seeing all those listed, i know i didn't spot all the hats
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Re: Rail S America [24.6.13] V14S - Rework

Postby cairnswk on Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:08 am

waauw wrote:why are the stations around Uruguay not double boxed like the others?
also, love the map!

and are hat-cities gonna start with neutrals? cuz in 1v1 they might give strong starting advantages.


OK waauw...
i've changed some of the stations around Uruguay to be double boxed....there are now 114 territories, 10 of those are neutral starts with hats (makes the 104 golden number), as per marked on this map.

greenoaks wrote:....
seeing all those listed, i know i didn't spot all the hats


The hat stations are now listed for convenience. :)

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Last edited by cairnswk on Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rail S America [24.6.13] V14S - Rework

Postby greenoaks on Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:30 am

looks good to me.
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Re: Rail S America [24.6.13] V14S - Rework

Postby Teflon Kris on Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:34 am

Someone may have mentionned this - what is the lower hexagon in the pacific depicting, and, similarly, I am struggling to work out what the Buenos Aires picture is.

PLus, you may wish to re-word the terminus-hat explanation, especially as some of the cities are only a terminus for one line: "Hats denote a bonus for junction cities due to the flourishing sale of hats in these cities' markets.@

Good work as ever though.

=D> =D> =D> =D>
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Re: Rail S America [24.6.13] V14S - Rework

Postby cairnswk on Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:52 pm

DJ Teflon wrote:Someone may have mentionned this - what is the lower hexagon in the pacific depicting, and, similarly, I am struggling to work out what the Buenos Aires picture is.

Lower Pacific hexagon is a funicular railcar that i know is used in Bolivia and Brazil
Buenos Aires pic is a night scene looking down Av 9 de Julio towards the Obelisk, which i beleive is the main inner city thoroughfare.
"9 de Julio Avenue, located in the city of Buenos Aires, Argentina, is the widest avenue in the world. Its name honors Argentina's Independence Day, July 9, 1816". Wikipedia
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Re: Rail S America [24.6.13] V14S - Rework

Postby cairnswk on Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:13 pm

DJ Teflon wrote:...
PLus, you may wish to re-word the terminus-hat explanation, especially as some of the cities are only a terminus for one line: "Hats denote a bonus for junction cities due to the flourishing sale of hats in these cities' markets.@

Good work as ever though.

=D> =D> =D> =D>


Done and thanks :)
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Re: Rail S America [26.6.13] V15S - Small GFX Changes

Postby cairnswk on Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:33 pm

Small grfx changes to straightening the legend text alignments, and the notation of underlying neutrals at the top - whether it stays there or not is a call for "absolute need".

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Re: Rail S America [26.6.13] V15S - Gameplay finished?

Postby cairnswk on Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:40 pm

Does anyone have any gameplay changes to this please?
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Re: Rail S America [26.6.13] V15S - Gameplay finished?

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:25 pm

cairns, can you do another neutrals map to show the values of the cities with two and three junctions to stop the bonus drops on the hat bonus. I take it that SCB in the south has a bonus of +1 if both C & E are held.

Other lines with only 2 or 3 stations in them, how do you want to hand these out to stop bonus drops? Lines N and D have nothing yet but H already has a neutral stated.
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Re: Rail S America [26.6.13] V15S - Gameplay finished?

Postby Aleena on Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:23 am

Maybe make one section of each Bonus a neutral - this would insure no one would receive one on a drop.
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Re: Rail S America [26.6.13] V15S - Gameplay finished?

Postby cairnswk on Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:43 am

koontz1973 wrote:cairns, can you do another neutrals map to show the values of the cities with two and three junctions to stop the bonus drops on the hat bonus. I take it that SCB in the south has a bonus of +1 if both C & E are held.

Other lines with only 2 or 3 stations in them, how do you want to hand these out to stop bonus drops? Lines N and D have nothing yet but H already has a neutral stated.



Image
koontz, top of this page was this map with the neutrals on it.
V15 has a notation to say where the neutrals are at the very top of the map.
yes, SCB E has a neutral, as do all two station terminuses with hat bonuses.

Aleena wrote:Maybe make one section of each Bonus a neutral - this would insure no one would receive one on a drop.

Aleena, the lines with 2 stations have neutrals allocated and some of these are also hat bonuses.
It is primarily only three station lines that get allocated a neutral to stop the "drop advantage"
All other lines with 4 or more stations usually are reasonably safe from "drop advantage" as all are randomly allocated
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Re: Rail S America [26.6.13] V15S - Gameplay finished?

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:29 am

Sorry for missing that map cairns, it was not the same as the OP one. But the 3 hat stations will also need a neutral.

A little suggestion from me. The stations with 2 lines and a hat (you have 9 if I counted correctly) how about having the other line as a starting position with an underlying 2 neutral. Give a max of two out to players. Will make sure everyone gets at least one in a game and not allow a player to have a big advantage by dropping in easy reach of lots of little bonuses in a game.
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Re: Rail S America [26.6.13] V15S - Gameplay finished?

Postby cairnswk on Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:05 am

koontz1973 wrote:Sorry for missing that map cairns, it was not the same as the OP one. But the 3 hat stations will also need a neutral.

A little suggestion from me. The stations with 2 lines and a hat (you have 9 if I counted correctly) how about having the other line as a starting position with an underlying 2 neutral. Give a max of two out to players. Will make sure everyone gets at least one in a game and not allow a player to have a big advantage by dropping in easy reach of lots of little bonuses in a game.


OK, i have 114 stations.
10 of them are marked at present as neutrals
104 is the golden number....the next one down is 80...that would mean placing another 24 neutrals on the map, which i am loathe to do.

the stations with two lines which have hats already have neutrals marked.
the other two line stations without hats don't need neutrals since they don't get any bonus if there is no hat, and those stations that are part of a three line bonus already have hats to neutralize the drop on those three station lines.

there are 5 2/3 station lines.
the only one that doesn't have neutrals allocated is the Inland TRS LIne (yellow - eastern Brasil)
it has three stations and two of those are a double up station with other lines.
do you really think that one in particular would be a problem,
since the other 4 of these have neutrals allocated because they are hat bonuses. :)
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Re: Rail S America [26.6.13] V15S - Gameplay finished?

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:42 am

Allowing one 3 line into the map I have no problem with as it will create some anomalies in games. Some players will bitch about bonus drops, others will see it as a nice move on your part. Like the throne in Siege or Down town in Montreal. I love these types of maps as it really does happen in life and does not sanitise maps. But you also have - PVH, CRS and SAO stations. So in reality you have 4 3 region bonuses that can be dropped for a bonus of 2.

The golden numbers say the next one down from 104 is 89 (apart from 5/7 player games). Both of these sizes are not in play much so not to worry. So by adding in 4 extra neutrals, one per 3 bonus region (line Q, stations PVH, CRS & SAO).

With the 9 2 bonus regions, the ones without neutral, mark these as starting positions with a max of 4 given out, that would mean only one extra underlying neutral in 2, 4 and 8 player games. This would give you the 89 golden number. And with 2, 4 and 8 player games being the most popular, I would not have any worry then. That would allow all drops to be cancelled, less neutrals added, would allow some randomness to the map and placate most players who would bitch about bonuses of 2 being dropped.
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Re: Rail S America [26.6.13] V15S - Gameplay finished?

Postby greenoaks on Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:28 am

i would like to see some small drops as a starting possibility. reading the log in fog to see where they are adds to a game, and the map's appeal.
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Re: Rail S America [3.7.13] V16S - Gameplay alteration

Postby cairnswk on Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:49 am

koontz1973 wrote:Allowing one 3 line into the map I have no problem with as it will create some anomalies in games. Some players will bitch about bonus drops, others will see it as a nice move on your part. Like the throne in Siege or Down town in Montreal. I love these types of maps as it really does happen in life and does not sanitise maps. But you also have - PVH, CRS and SAO stations. So in reality you have 4 3 region bonuses that can be dropped for a bonus of 2.


Ahm, :oops: i had forgotten about these 3x3 terminuses having to have neutrals.
so yes that makes another 4 neutrals added to the already existing 10. - now 14.

The golden numbers say the next one down from 104 is 89 (apart from 5/7 player games). Both of these sizes are not in play much so not to worry. So by adding in 4 extra neutrals, one per 3 bonus region (line Q, stations PVH, CRS & SAO).

from 89 to 104 is 15 neutrals, not 4.
i was hoping to get a full golden number like 104.
so, 114 total, to 89 makes 25 neutrals.

By placing neutrals on BSB and BUE stations (11) i get 14+11= 25 neutrals.
That means there is no need to alter the drop or max numbers and this can play as a relatively normal map (except for all the neutrals)

I have placed a bonus on each of BSB and BUA and this can be altered. Just means N line has one start which isn't a totally bad thing.

Version 16.
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Re: Rail S America [26.6.13] V15S - Gameplay finished?

Postby cairnswk on Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:51 am

greenoaks wrote:i would like to see some small drops as a starting possibility. reading the log in fog to see where they are adds to a game, and the map's appeal.


greenoaks, what do you consider to be small drops? and what is the bit about the maps appeal - please explain.
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Re: Rail S America [3.7.13] V16S - Gameplay alteration

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:51 am

cairnswk wrote:from 89 to 104 is 15 neutrals, not 4.

Amazing how basic math can go wrong. :oops:

I can live with all of the neutrals like that but within the 2 large terminus, lower them to a 2 or 1 depending on the length of line. So line N with its 3 regions can go to a 2, line L with 6 stations can get a 1 neutral.

Let me look at something and I will get back to you later today.
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Re: Rail S America [26.6.13] V15S - Gameplay finished?

Postby greenoaks on Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:37 am

cairnswk wrote:
greenoaks wrote:i would like to see some small drops as a starting possibility. reading the log in fog to see where they are adds to a game, and the map's appeal.


greenoaks, what do you consider to be small drops? and what is the bit about the maps appeal - please explain.

i don't have a problem with someone dropping a +1 or +2. it takes the blandness out of games.

'do they have a drop, where could it be, better move in this direction to check, better fort this other way to cover myself'

knowing you could be at a slight disadvantage or advantage brings more to a map's appeal than everyone starting identical, every time.

some of the most popular maps are Realms 2/3 & Feudal War. games are interesting because not all starts are equal. overcoming that (or running with it) is satisfying.
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Re: Rail S America [26.6.13] V15S - Gameplay finished?

Postby cairnswk on Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:20 pm

greenoaks wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
greenoaks wrote:i would like to see some small drops as a starting possibility. reading the log in fog to see where they are adds to a game, and the map's appeal.


greenoaks, what do you consider to be small drops? and what is the bit about the maps appeal - please explain.

i don't have a problem with someone dropping a +1 or +2. it takes the blandness out of games.

'do they have a drop, where could it be, better move in this direction to check, better fort this other way to cover myself'

knowing you could be at a slight disadvantage or advantage brings more to a map's appeal than everyone starting identical, every time.

some of the most popular maps are Realms 2/3 & Feudal War. games are interesting because not all starts are equal. overcoming that (or running with it) is satisfying.


I agree with you to a certain extent, i have never been one to think a map should be totally balanced - right from Pearl Harvour, however, there are many on the site who would scream their tits off if the maps are not balanced and someone starts with a bonus, particularly in 1v1
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Re: Re: Rail S America [3.7.13] V16S - Gameplay alteration

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:43 pm

cairns, been looking at this now for a couple of days as I wanted to make sure.

I can see two real problems at the moment.
    You have a huge amount of very small bonuses. Nicely spread but this map is going to come down to a lot of luck on the drop and who can grab one the first. In a two player game, if I drop 2 stations in a 3 line station, all I need is to take one neutral for a +2 bonus. This is not going to be fun for what I reckon will be the majority of games.
      You have 2 solutions for this one. You have two lots of hats on the map. 2 and 3 line stations. Remove all of the hats from 2 line stations and reduce the 3 line station to a one bonus. This will only give you 3 3 hat bonuses and seems a bit fairer. The second solution to this and probably a much fairer one would be to have a collection bonus system in place. If you said that to get the hat bonuses, you needed 3 hats, you not only get rid of the problem entirely, but you will then be able to remove a lot of the neutrals and get back to your preferred golden number.
    Q line. This is another 3 line station on a map dominated by small bonuses. It seems pointless to me to have it there as it does not seem to serve any function.
      Again, 2 solutions for you. Remove the line completely. Easy, and clean fix. Second one would be to make the line longer. Run it down to SSA or SMS.
Thoughts?
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Re: Rail S America [3.7.13] V16S - Gameplay alteration

Postby cairnswk on Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:23 pm

koontz, after your post i too have been thinking.

Image

Here is a breakdown of territories and bonuses ( no hat bonuses)

There are 5 continents (marked blue) that require less than 3 for bonuses. These are well spread out.

There are 9 bonuses (marked red) that are 1 & 2 bonuses, and 5 of these are the less than 3 territory continents as above.

I do think that for a map this size (114 terts) that is not a lot of bonuses with 2/3 territorie, considering 8 players may start, even though the majority of games may be 1v1.

I am not convinced that Q line is out or place and pointless and needs enhancing/removal because it was put there (V9) to balance that side of the map when ian wanted to place a similar small bonus down around SAO which i thought was overkill for that area. If you look at this you'll see that it does balance the map for small continent bonuses.
Image

You have a huge amount of very small bonuses. Nicely spread but this map is going to come down to a lot of luck on the drop and who can grab one the first. In a two player game, if I drop 2 stations in a 3 line station, all I need is to take one neutral for a +2 bonus. This is not going to be fun for what I reckon will be the majority of games.


it may not be fun for you...but it might be fun for others who relish the opportunity to gain a small bonus early in the game to assist them on their quest to conquer large continents and their opponents, and this map help in particular those who have relatively bad dice (which appears to be the case on this site quite often from what i read)
Similar can be said for the hat bonuses.

Given the drops are:
2P: 34 + 46N
3P: 34 + 12N
4P: 26 + 10N
5P: 20 + 14N
6P: 17 + 12N
7P: 14 + 16N
8P: 13 + 10N

i think there is quite a large possibility that the smaller player games will not end early and even doubles/trips/quads will not be easy.

I did like the idea of the collection bonus initially but then examined the map and saw that availability of that bonus is very limited (mainly to the inner Amazon region) because of the distance of those hat stations from each other. This would mean that the hat bonuses come into play rather late in games and not early as planned for extra early bonus, and in this sense they would not much different from continent bonuses of which there are already many line bonuses to accommodate.

this map is going to come down to a lot of luck on the drop

is not this the case in most every game?

if I drop 2 stations in a 3 line station, all I need is to take one neutral for a +2 bonus.

If this is too easy then increase the neutral :)
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Re: Rail S America [3.7.13] V16S - Gameplay alteration

Postby iancanton on Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:15 pm

cairnswk wrote:for a map this size (114 terts) that is not a lot of bonuses with 2/3 territorie, considering 8 players may start, even though the majority of games may be 1v1.

the opposite is true. small maps (such as madrid) need small bonuses, while large ones don't, especially ones with over 100 regions. if u have lots of 2-station bonuses, then u must increase the value of most of the larger bonuses above their current level to boost their relative attractiveness, since u cannot decrease a 2-station bonus to less than +1.

cairnswk wrote:I am not convinced that Q line is out or place and pointless and needs enhancing/removal because it was put there (V9) to balance that side of the map when ian wanted to place a similar small bonus down around SAO which i thought was overkill for that area.

i believe i said no such thing. i actually suggested adding more stations to the Z line.

cairnswk wrote:it may not be fun for you...but it might be fun for others who relish the opportunity to gain a small bonus early in the game to assist them on their quest to conquer large continents and their opponents, and this map help in particular those who have relatively bad dice (which appears to be the case on this site quite often from what i read)
Similar can be said for the hat bonuses.

i suspect that most players will leave well alone the large continents in most games because u've ensured that trying to take and hold them is a losing strategy.

cairnswk wrote:
this map is going to come down to a lot of luck on the drop

is not this the case in most every game?

certainly not.

cairnswk wrote:
if I drop 2 stations in a 3 line station, all I need is to take one neutral for a +2 bonus.

If this is too easy then increase the neutral :)

u will need at least n4 for any neutral stations that combine a hat bonus with a short line.

koontz1973 wrote:Like the throne in Siege or Down town in Montreal. I love these types of maps as it really does happen in life and does not sanitise maps.

greenoaks wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
greenoaks wrote:i would like to see some small drops as a starting possibility. reading the log in fog to see where they are adds to a game, and the map's appeal.

greenoaks, what do you consider to be small drops? and what is the bit about the maps appeal - please explain.

i don't have a problem with someone dropping a +1 or +2. it takes the blandness out of games.

'do they have a drop, where could it be, better move in this direction to check, better fort this other way to cover myself'

knowing you could be at a slight disadvantage or advantage brings more to a map's appeal than everyone starting identical, every time.

some of the most popular maps are Realms 2/3 & Feudal War. games are interesting because not all starts are equal. overcoming that (or running with it) is satisfying.

greenoaks gives examples of maps where all players start with the same deployment. koontz mentions that the throne in siege! and downtown in montreal add interest; note the focus on a special part of each map, where power is wielded. we can take something from both concepts by using as focus cities the two eye-catching hubs of the map, brasilia and buenos aires, the capitals of the two south american regional superpowers, perhaps by reducing all of the neutrals on these cities to n1 each and increasing the bonuses to +12 and +10 respectively. something like this might force players to keep an eye on these cities in case of a big surprise, without handing out dropped bonuses on a plate.

ian. :)
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Re: Rail S America [3.7.13] V16S - Gameplay alteration

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:58 am

iancanton wrote:
cairnswk wrote:for a map this size (114 terts) that is not a lot of bonuses with 2/3 territorie, considering 8 players may start, even though the majority of games may be 1v1.

the opposite is true. small maps (such as madrid) need small bonuses, while large ones don't, especially ones with over 100 regions. if u have lots of 2-station bonuses, then u must increase the value of most of the larger bonuses above their current level to boost their relative attractiveness, since u cannot decrease a 2-station bonus to less than +1.

Well, i have my opinion on that, and stick to it.
not reducing 2 station bonuses makes sense, so let's increase the larger bonuses.
What are your suggestions for those increases?


iancanton wrote:
cairnswk wrote:I am not convinced that Q line is out or place and pointless and needs enhancing/removal because it was put there (V9) to balance that side of the map when ian wanted to place a similar small bonus down around SAO which i thought was overkill for that area.

i believe i said no such thing. i actually suggested adding more stations to the Z line.

You are correct, i am wrong (again - speaking muddled) :oops: and i apologise, ian, for using that reference for that argument.
however, and i have reviwed the original conversations...i am unwilling to withdraw that small bonus because of my beleif that this map doens't have to play like classic, and i am still of the view that this map could be good with those small bonuses to start.
If you know me by now, i do not stick to the necessarily normal views that others may hold.

cairnswk wrote:it may not be fun for you...but it might be fun for others who relish the opportunity to gain a small bonus early in the game to assist them on their quest to conquer large continents and their opponents, and this map help in particular those who have relatively bad dice (which appears to be the case on this site quite often from what i read)
Similar can be said for the hat bonuses.

i suspect that most players will leave well alone the large continents in most games because u've ensured that trying to take and hold them is a losing strategy.

well, ian, i disagree with you again on this one.
i remember a lengthy game (50 rounds) on Rail Asia, where tnb and i pussy-footed around between red and white lines gathering bonuses for some time.
and then in the end two other players were attacked and they didn't like my strategy of trying to move the game on from "empire-building"...btw, i won.
what i am trying to say, is that there are all sorts of strategies that might be available to everyone playing in largers games and the outcome is no certain matter, even though some players like to play "conservatively" and stick to classic play.
The game is based on RISK, and if you don't take risks then you'll neven know what can and cannot be accomplished. so i suspect that classic game is not going to apply here, and nor should it since this is an entirely different map.
There are probably many ways we can balance the map.

cairnswk wrote:
this map is going to come down to a lot of luck on the drop

is not this the case in most every game?

certainly not.

Hehe! the amount of comments that i've seen on the site that entertain in my direction with the dice does not favour your response.

cairnswk wrote:
if I drop 2 stations in a 3 line station, all I need is to take one neutral for a +2 bonus.

If this is too easy then increase the neutral :)

u will need at least n4 for any neutral stations that combine a hat bonus with a short line.

OK, let's do that then....quite open to doing that if it makes all that difference.

koontz1973 wrote:Like the throne in Siege or Down town in Montreal. I love these types of maps as it really does happen in life and does not sanitise maps.

greenoaks wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
greenoaks wrote:i would like to see some small drops as a starting possibility. reading the log in fog to see where they are adds to a game, and the map's appeal.

greenoaks, what do you consider to be small drops? and what is the bit about the maps appeal - please explain.

i don't have a problem with someone dropping a +1 or +2. it takes the blandness out of games.

'do they have a drop, where could it be, better move in this direction to check, better fort this other way to cover myself'

knowing you could be at a slight disadvantage or advantage brings more to a map's appeal than everyone starting identical, every time.

some of the most popular maps are Realms 2/3 & Feudal War. games are interesting because not all starts are equal. overcoming that (or running with it) is satisfying.


greenoaks gives examples of maps where all players start with the same deployment. koontz mentions that the throne in siege! and downtown in montreal add interest; note the focus on a special part of each map, where power is wielded. we can take something from both concepts by using as focus cities the two eye-catching hubs of the map, brasilia and buenos aires, the capitals of the two south american regional superpowers, perhaps by reducing all of the neutrals on these cities to n1 each and increasing the bonuses to +12 and +10 respectively. something like this might force players to keep an eye on these cities in case of a big surprise, without handing out dropped bonuses on a plate.

ian. :)

Happy to do that. :)
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Re: Rail S America [14.7.13] V17S - Station Neutrals

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:32 pm

ian,

for short lines with hat stations, allocated to:
n4 - PAC
n4 - UIO
n4 - SCL

n1 allocated to BSB and BUE stations
plus bonuses adjusted to 12 and 10 respectively.

ian, i am thinking now with those n1 bonuses for that big a city bonus, it's going to be very easy to take in inital stages of the game, and player could be fighting very early on for that big bonus.
i therefore propose that at least one station be n3 in BSB and BUE. and this should belong to shortest line.
thus I Campo Grande in BSB would be n3, and
N Santiago would be n3.

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