Re: Rail S America [21.11.13] BETA READY

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Re: Rail S America [17.7.13] V18S(p9) - Station Neutrals

Postby jigger1986 on Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:51 pm

Sorry no help at all, I just wanted to say that visually this map looks amazing!
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Re: Rail S America [17.7.13] V18S(p9) - Station Neutrals

Postby cairnswk on Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:38 pm

jigger1986 wrote:Sorry no help at all, I just wanted to say that visually this map looks amazing!

that is a big help for an opinion. Thanks jigger1986. :)
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Re: Rail S America [17.7.13] V18S(p9) - Station Neutrals

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:36 pm

cairnswk wrote:in second half, are you suggesting we place a max of +3 on the drop?

No, I was suggesting that with the positions, have a max of 3 positions handed out. With 8 positions, in a two player game only 6 will be assigned. The other two will go into the normal drop. Adding a touch of randomness to the map starts.

What are your thoughts on adding some starting positions to the map?
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Re: Rail S America [17.7.13] V18S(p9) - Station Neutrals

Postby cairnswk on Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:44 am

koontz1973 wrote:
cairnswk wrote:in second half, are you suggesting we place a max of +3 on the drop?

No, I was suggesting that with the positions, have a max of 3 positions handed out. With 8 positions, in a two player game only 6 will be assigned. The other two will go into the normal drop. Adding a touch of randomness to the map starts.

What are your thoughts on adding some starting positions to the map?


to be honest, i am not in favour of either of those ideas. i'd prefer to have completely random drop (or manual placement) as per the game engine.
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Re: Rail S America [17.7.13] V18S(p9) - Station Neutrals

Postby iancanton on Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:49 am

cairnswk wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:I was suggesting that with the positions, have a max of 3 positions handed out. With 8 positions, in a two player game only 6 will be assigned. The other two will go into the normal drop. Adding a touch of randomness to the map starts.

What are your thoughts on adding some starting positions to the map?

to be honest, i am not in favour of either of those ideas. i'd prefer to have completely random drop (or manual placement) as per the game engine.

even if it helps to reduce the number of neutrals?

to rectify the fact that bolivia, being located centrally, looks hard to hold, i propose a change to the map layout by adding a border station to the C line and removing a border station from the V line. change the name of POI potosi to UYU uyuni, which is the actual meeting point of lines from LPB (V), ATG (C) and, originally, SLA (T); add the fcab railway from ATG (C) to UYU (C); remove LTC (V), since the two railway lines never connected there (and it also helps to reduce the difficulty of the peru bonus).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyuni
http://www.antofagasta.co.uk/about-us/history.aspx
http://www.scielo.org.ar/scielo.php?scr ... 5000100007

try reducing the guyanese bonus to +1 because, including the hat bonus, there will be a total of +2 for holding 5 stations, of which 2 are border stations.

ian. :)
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Re: Rail S America [17.7.13] V18S(p9) - Station Neutrals

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:58 pm

iancanton wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:I was suggesting that with the positions, have a max of 3 positions handed out. With 8 positions, in a two player game only 6 will be assigned. The other two will go into the normal drop. Adding a touch of randomness to the map starts.

What are your thoughts on adding some starting positions to the map?

to be honest, i am not in favour of either of those ideas. i'd prefer to have completely random drop (or manual placement) as per the game engine.

even if it helps to reduce the number of neutrals?

to be honest, originally i had 10 neutrals on the map but changes since then have added more...not my preferred option...but i like to give a little :) but not everything :P

to rectify the fact that bolivia, being located centrally, looks hard to hold, i propose a change to the map layout by adding a border station to the C line and removing a border station from the V line. change the name of POI potosi to UYU uyuni, which is the actual meeting point of lines from LPB (V), ATG (C) and, originally, SLA (T); add the fcab railway from ATG (C) to UYU (C); remove LTC (V), since the two railway lines never connected there (and it also helps to reduce the difficulty of the peru bonus).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyuni
http://www.antofagasta.co.uk/about-us/history.aspx
http://www.scielo.org.ar/scielo.php?scr ... 5000100007

Done, one of the things well researched and explained and i'm happy with so given. :)

try reducing the guyanese bonus to +1 because, including the hat bonus, there will be a total of +2 for holding 5 stations, of which 2 are border stations.
ian. :)

if Guyanese is reduced to +1, that makes +2 bonus for the guyanese line and the hat station GEO.
and there is a +2 M line right beside it, and +4 J line on the other end?
I'm not totally in favour of this. :)
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Re: Rail S America [21.7.13] V19S(p10) - Station Neutrals

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:03 pm

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Re: Re: Rail S America [21.7.13] V19S(p10) - Station Neutral

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:07 am

Cairns, hats, what would be your thoughts on removing the hats from 3 stations (PAC, REC, SCB). I am asking this as it would make my life a lot easier. Those 3 are in the corners of the map.

SCB down south is sort of OK, but you have line N and SCL hat station as well there. This means for a defensible position or 3 regions, you can get +6. Way to high even when you consider the amount of regions you need to take.
REC is next to Q line. This is making this corner very attractive IMO and a great place to hide considering neutrals.
PAC is just not going to happen as it is. You have a line for +1, a hat station for +1 all defended by one region. I know the argument of Central America is not South America but I can live with it being on. It really is just that bonus set up that is bad. Considering you also have UIO 2 stops away.
UIO is another station I am not a fan of. Same with PAC, you have a very short line with a hat on it.

All this is, whilst making hot spots for players to fight over, you will end up with the rest of the board being ignored and the winner[s] of these areas winning the game in the end. Two solutions to this would be to remove all hats from the board (not my option as I do like them) or to remove or move them from all lines less than 5 stations long. So have them bordering lines at stations like PVH or central to a line like IQT.

Thoughts?
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Re: Re: Rail S America [21.7.13] V19S(p10) - Station Neutral

Postby cairnswk on Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:40 pm

koontz1973 wrote:Cairns, hats, what would be your thoughts on removing the hats from 3 stations (PAC, REC, SCB). I am asking this as it would make my life a lot easier. Those 3 are in the corners of the map.

The hats were put there to give the map S. American flavour, and indeed the locals wear a lot of hats.
It would make your life a lot easier, but that is not "my objective"
Removing the hats is not an option, as this is part of the required "unique" gameplay option ;)

SCB down south is sort of OK, but you have line N and SCL hat station as well there. This means for a defensible position or 3 regions, you can get +6. Way to high even when you consider the amount of regions you need to take.


Yes, one has to overcome 8 regions, two of which are part of the BUA system
with a total of n11 to overcome before that +6 becomes effective, and
if two players are determined there, it could be civil war in Argentina - quite the setting i'd say.
It was you who wanted the C LIne connection to SCB,
in one way i imagine the +6 might not be a problem if there was no back end to it, and the connection was only through BUA.
However, i propose that SCL hat is moved to ARI, which reduced the +6 to +5 :)
and with the hat on ARI there are mo other close small bonuses involved.
This doesn't affect the neutral required for small N line since there is n3 on the BUA N


REC is next to Q line. This is making this corner very attractive IMO and a great place to hide considering neutrals.


OK, but REC is not part of the Q line, and certainly doesn't have the appeal that SCB/SCL might have.
REC is part of two of the biggest lines on the map to get those large bonuses, the hat might be needed.
I can remove the REC/PNZ connection as concession.


PAC is just not going to happen as it is. You have a line for +1, a hat station for +1 all defended by one region. I know the argument of Central America is not South America but I can live with it being on. It really is just that bonus set up that is bad. Considering you also have UIO 2 stops away.

I was considering moving the hat to SCI, however, this would fulfill requirement for n3 on H Line.
I don't really see UIO as being a problem. if one player takes the H Line and the other takes D Line, then it's up to them to fort adequately to hold them less they deserve to lose these small lines.


UIO is another station I am not a fan of. Same with PAC, you have a very short line with a hat on it.

Nothing doing here I'm afraid.

All this is, whilst making hot spots for players to fight over, you will end up with the rest of the board being ignored and the winner[s] of these areas winning the game in the end. Two solutions to this would be to remove all hats from the board (not my option as I do like them) or to remove or move them from all lines less than 5 stations long. So have them bordering lines at stations like PVH or central to a line like IQT.

Thoughts?

au contraire koontz. :)
if any player is worth their salt, who'd want to fight over small bonuses only...this gives other players options of going for the longer lines with larger bonuses and being relatively successful to counteract the smaller bonuses.
The correct solution is to work with the hats but get them in the correct place.
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Re: Rail S America [22.7.13] V20S(p10) - Station Neutrals

Postby cairnswk on Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:57 pm

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Re: Rail S America [22.7.13] V20S(p10) - Station Neutrals

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:00 am

cairnswk wrote:au contraire koontz. :)
if any player is worth their salt, who'd want to fight over small bonuses only...this gives other players options of going for the longer lines with larger bonuses and being relatively successful to counteract the smaller bonuses.

But would you not say that a short line or hat bonus is easier to get than a long line. So while you try for your long line, I can grab 1 or 2 short/hat bonuses. This would make it a lot harder for you to get or keep your long line bonus. To paraphrase you, any player worth his salt will always grab the easiest bonus on the board to give an advantage in the long run.
cairnswk wrote:The correct solution is to work with the hats but get them in the correct place.

Hence the reason I said about those stations. I cannot seem to contend with those four stations. Mainly UIO and PAC. Both are on short lines, easily defensible and allow you to expand to the other. Both should be removed or moved. Removing the hat from SCL was good, I can live with SCB now as it is.
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Re: Rail S America [22.7.13] V20S(p10) - Station Neutrals

Postby cairnswk on Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:05 am

koontz1973 wrote:
cairnswk wrote:au contraire koontz. :)
if any player is worth their salt, who'd want to fight over small bonuses only...this gives other players options of going for the longer lines with larger bonuses and being relatively successful to counteract the smaller bonuses.

But would you not say that a short line or hat bonus is easier to get than a long line. So while you try for your long line, I can grab 1 or 2 short/hat bonuses. This would make it a lot harder for you to get or keep your long line bonus. To paraphrase you, any player worth his salt will always grab the easiest bonus on the board to give an advantage in the long run.

No, while you are concentrating on your short line bonuses, i may have good luck with dice and easily obtain a long line bonus. Another possibility with so much reliant on the dice. :)

cairnswk wrote:The correct solution is to work with the hats but get them in the correct place.

Hence the reason I said about those stations. I cannot seem to contend with those four stations. Mainly UIO and PAC. Both are on short lines, easily defensible and allow you to expand to the other. Both should be removed or moved. Removing the hat from SCL was good, I can live with SCB now as it is.


koontz,
If we move either hat from UIO or PAC, we'll be required to issue new neutrals and we've already come to agreement on 25. :)
unless another station is added to C American line, or the hat is moved to SCI and another single station added to some line where there is a space. ;)
to make 115 stations with 26 neutrals to get the 89 GN.
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Re: Rail S America [22.7.13] V20S(p10) - Station Neutrals

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:36 am

cairnswk wrote:If we move either hat from UIO or PAC, we'll be required to issue new neutrals and we've already come to agreement on 25. :)

Instead of moving them, remove them. You keep your lines as they are, neutrals can stay as they are (reduced to a 3). That to me is a win win.

Another option would be, as you say, add a station to C line and move the hat to SCI. Not a fan of this at all because of IQT. Also, you will add another neutral to the board.
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Re: Rail S America [22.7.13] V20S(p10) - Station Neutrals

Postby cairnswk on Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:23 am

koontz1973 wrote:
cairnswk wrote:If we move either hat from UIO or PAC, we'll be required to issue new neutrals and we've already come to agreement on 25. :)

Instead of moving them, remove them. You keep your lines as they are, neutrals can stay as they are (reduced to a 3). That to me is a win win.

Another option would be, as you say, add a station to C line and move the hat to SCI. Not a fan of this at all because of IQT. Also, you will add another neutral to the board.


No! removing them is not going to happen.
The C Line (btw) was meant to be the C American Line, but it didn't come out that way.
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Re: Rail S America [22.7.13] V20S(p10) - Station Neutrals

Postby cairnswk on Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:50 am

It's a shame the Ecuador Railway can't be represented adequately
this article looks like a spectacular journey.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/galler ... 61&index=0

One option i had considered was to give Ecuador 4 stations, including a shipping link to the Galapagos from Guayaquil :)
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Re: Rail S America [22.7.13] V21S(p10) - Station Neutrals

Postby cairnswk on Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:00 am

Version 21.
115 Stations - MGA Managua has been added to Central American H Line, the neutral and hat removed from PAC and placed on SCI.
This still leaves the neutral and hart on UIO Quito, but since it is a two station line, it is necessary requirement. :)
Central American bonus lifted to +2

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Re: Re: Rail S America [22.7.13] V21S (p11) - Station Neutra

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:55 am

Two more options then.

How easy would it be to add another line of stations on SJO, PAC and BRR. PAC then becomes a 3 line station,central America can be attacked from 2 regions.

Second one would be to split up Columbia. Start the new set at SCI, heading west to SJO. Again PAC gets a third station which becomes neutral. You then only add one extra region to the board, so one more neutral to add. This would mean PAC would have two lots of 3 neutrals for a +2. Not really worth it for the start of a game but becomes attractive mid game. This also allows the central line to be attacked again from two directions onto two of its three stations. North Columbia at a +1, south Columbia at a +2 or 3.

Thoughts?
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Re: Re: Rail S America [22.7.13] V21S (p11) - Station Neutra

Postby cairnswk on Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:56 am

koontz1973 wrote:Two more options then.

How easy would it be to add another line of stations on SJO, PAC and BRR. PAC then becomes a 3 line station,central America can be attacked from 2 regions.

Second one would be to split up Columbia. Start the new set at SCI, heading west to SJO. Again PAC gets a third station which becomes neutral. You then only add one extra region to the board, so one more neutral to add. This would mean PAC would have two lots of 3 neutrals for a +2. Not really worth it for the start of a game but becomes attractive mid game. This also allows the central line to be attacked again from two directions onto two of its three stations. North Columbia at a +1, south Columbia at a +2 or 3.

Thoughts?


Nah! Sorry. I like the way we have it now, and it fulfills the requirements that you were discussing before without removing the hats.
Now you're just getting too fancy and making it more complicated than it really needs to be.
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Re: Re: Rail S America [22.7.13] V21S (p11) - Station Neutra

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:59 am

Fine, central American line still needs to be a +1 only though. Still to easy to defend to warrant a +2. Another rule that you seem to of broken, well not broken but put to the side is dead ends :P . It has always been my belief that dead ends longer than one or two are a no no. You have it at four. H line is just one long dead end.

Moving the hat to SCI is a good idea, for some reason, I did not get the map up yesterday when I logged on. Must of been my laptop not working fully on the train. But it is nice to see SCI with the hat now. Can you raise the neutrals though to a 4 for all two hat stations please?
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Re: Re: Rail S America [22.7.13] V21S (p11) - Station Neutra

Postby cairnswk on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:45 am

koontz1973 wrote:Fine, central American line still needs to be a +1 only though. Still too easy to defend to warrant a +2.

OK, can do.


Another rule that you seem to of broken, well not broken but put to the side is dead ends :P .

I didn't know that was a rule. :roll:
If it is a rule, it seems to have got broken in Classic with the Australian continent with no connection to S America, as well as USA2.1 on Hawaii and England in Rail Europe; and there is probably one or two others out there.

It has always been my belief that dead ends longer than one or two are a no no. You have it at four. H line is just one long dead end.

So it is a belief for you, but you still have to acquire it to get the bonus, and being only worth +1...meh, not much of an incentive to gain and hold it with only +1, especially when it sits next to a +4

Moving the hat to SCI is a good idea, for some reason, I did not get the map up yesterday when I logged on. Must of been my laptop not working fully on the train. But it is nice to see SCI with the hat now. Can you raise the neutrals though to a 4 for all two hat stations please?


two hat stations?? there is only one hat on any terminus, so not sure what you mean there...
and ...
iancanton wrote:u will need at least n4 for any neutral stations that combine a hat bonus with a short line.

...did you discuss this with ian, please :)
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Re: Re: Rail S America [22.7.13] V21S (p11) - Station Neutra

Postby iancanton on Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:29 am

cairnswk wrote:MGA Managua has been added to Central American H Line, the neutral and hat removed from PAC and placed on SCI.

koontz1973 wrote:Fine, central American line still needs to be a +1 only though.

adding MGA and moving the PAC hat to SCI works well, as long as u reduce the H line bonus to +1.

cairnswk wrote:
Moving the hat to SCI is a good idea, for some reason, I did not get the map up yesterday when I logged on. Must of been my laptop not working fully on the train. But it is nice to see SCI with the hat now. Can you raise the neutrals though to a 4 for all two hat stations please?


two hat stations?? there is only one hat on any terminus, so not sure what you mean there...
and ...
iancanton wrote:u will need at least n4 for any neutral stations that combine a hat bonus with a short line.

...did you discuss this with ian, please :)

koontz isn't contradicting my quoted statement by asking for n4 neutrals on all 2-station hat bonuses (i think!); i covered only the hat bonuses that are combined with a short line because they were more obvious, without saying anything about the other hat bonuses. n4 for the 2-station hat bonuses is somewhat similar to the n4 tiki bonus on taranaki and ruatoria in new zealand.

thanks for adding the antofagasta line. however, can u make it brown instead of red and have UYU (C) (creating a 3-station hat bonus there) instead of ATG (V)? part of the thinking behind removing LTC (V) and adding UYU (C) is to make the centrally-located V line easier to hold and increase the difficulty of the peripheral C line.

ian. :)
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Re: Re: Rail S America [22.7.13] V21S (p11) - Station Neutra

Postby cairnswk on Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:26 am

iancanton wrote:
cairnswk wrote:MGA Managua has been added to Central American H Line, the neutral and hat removed from PAC and placed on SCI.

koontz1973 wrote:Fine, central American line still needs to be a +1 only though.

adding MGA and moving the PAC hat to SCI works well, as long as u reduce the H line bonus to +1.

Done!

cairnswk wrote:
Moving the hat to SCI is a good idea, for some reason, I did not get the map up yesterday when I logged on. Must of been my laptop not working fully on the train. But it is nice to see SCI with the hat now. Can you raise the neutrals though to a 4 for all two hat stations please?


two hat stations?? there is only one hat on any terminus, so not sure what you mean there...
and ...
iancanton wrote:u will need at least n4 for any neutral stations that combine a hat bonus with a short line.

...did you discuss this with ian, please :)

koontz isn't contradicting my quoted statement by asking for n4 neutrals on all 2-station hat bonuses (i think!); i covered only the hat bonuses that are combined with a short line because they were more obvious, without saying anything about the other hat bonuses. n4 for the 2-station hat bonuses is somewhat similar to the n4 tiki bonus on taranaki and ruatoria in new zealand.

OK. but i ask koontz for that discussion to ensure absolute once only outcome for that part.
i have increased all two hat stations to n4.


thanks for adding the antofagasta line. however, can u make it brown instead of red and have UYU (C) (creating a 3-station hat bonus there) instead of ATG (V)? part of the thinking behind removing LTC (V) and adding UYU (C) is to make the centrally-located V line easier to hold and increase the difficulty of the peripheral C line.

ian. :)

Done!
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Re: Rail S America [26.7.13] V22S (p11) - Gameplay

Postby cairnswk on Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:32 am

Version 22.
Also I thought the C Line should be increased to +4 since it now has 4 bordering stations.

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Re: Rail S America [26.7.13] V22S (p11) - Gameplay Done?

Postby cairnswk on Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:32 pm

Is gameplay done on this ?
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