Labyrinth [Quenched]

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Re: Labyrinth [7/8] Pages 1/10

Postby nolefan5311 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:10 pm

koontz1973 wrote:
Have you thought about maybe putting a box or something around the individual legend explanations, or finding some way to combine the two Medusa explanations and two Siren's explanations?

Boxes look silly, believe me, I tried early on when getting the layout sorted. How do you combine a positive (bonus) with a negative(killer or decay). From what I see, cannot be done as both have separate symbols and meaning.


I don't know what you mean. Something to make the legend more organized is all I was suggesting.

koontz1973 wrote:
Also, I suggest changing the wording for Prometheus to something like this..."Failure to hold a slave entrance results in immediate death. Slave entrances can only be attacked from adjacent regions, but Promotheus must be held as condition of attack". I think that takes up less space and is very concise in the requirement.

More space and sounds crap. ;) But it has gone in modified. Just give it a check over.


Sounds crap, as in not as cool enough or something? Again, Not really sure what you mean. It needs to be made clear that Prometheus being held is a condition of attacking a slave entrance, and that losing your slave entrance is a losing condition. If you've got something better than by all means...

koontz1973 wrote:
Andy is right that the spear definition is confusing. I understand it's based on the outlined boxes, but this is pretty confusing. I think you need to change this somehow (maybe put the same color tint on the inside of the bombard boxes?).


You stamped it. :lol: But will have a look at it tonight. Nothing worth watching on the Olympics tonight.


Did you not fix this already with the glow in the boxes? And shouldn't L9 spear be able to bombard L12 food?

And I will make sure to wait until the last possible moment to stamp in the future ;)
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Re: Labyrinth [7/8] Pages 1/10

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:25 pm

You are right about the food. Will add.
Medusa has a bonus and also is mentioned for the killer neutral. How can you combine these two elements together into one coherent sentence that makes sense? With the boxes, I had them in at the start and worked on them for a while. From straight line boxes to using columns to split it all up. Nothing worked or took up to much space.
Does the glow in the boxes clear up the spears or do I need to rework the wording?
Is the legend now not clear over the conditional border? Adding this part...
Slave entrances can only be attacked from adjacent regions, but Promotheus must be held as condition of attack

I have stated the losing condition as you worded it as that is great, but to add this last part seems like over kill. I have stated that you cannot attack them till you hold him so why add the adjacent region part?
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Re: Labyrinth [7/8] Pages 1/10

Postby nolefan5311 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:42 pm

koontz1973 wrote:Medusa has a bonus and also is mentioned for the killer neutral. How can you combine these two elements together into one coherent sentence that makes sense? With the boxes, I had them in at the start and worked on them for a while. From straight line boxes to using columns to split it all up. Nothing worked or took up to much space.


I will try to come up with something. Really just depends on what you're willing to do as far as space in the legend is concerned.

koontz1973 wrote:Does the glow in the boxes clear up the spears or do I need to rework the wording?


I know what it means, but fresh eyes might be needed. Andy, what do you think? Is it pretty clear now? koontz, how do you feel about removing the spears entirely from the GP? I don't think they add anything particularly unique to the map and at this point are just adding more confusion then they're worth. And it would free up more legend space...lol

koontz1973 wrote:Is the legend now not clear over the conditional border? Adding this part...
Slave entrances can only be attacked from adjacent regions, but Promotheus must be held as condition of attack. I have stated the losing condition as you worded it as that is great, but to add this last part seems like over kill. I have stated that you cannot attack them till you hold him so why add the adjacent region part?


I agree with you, like your wording better.
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Re: Labyrinth [7/8] Pages 1/10

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:59 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:[
koontz1973 wrote:Does the glow in the boxes clear up the spears or do I need to rework the wording?


I know what it means, but fresh eyes might be needed. Andy, what do you think? Is it pretty clear now? koontz, how do you feel about removing the spears entirely from the GP? I don't think they add anything particularly unique to the map and at this point are just adding more confusion then they're worth. And it would free up more legend space...lol


I won't comment on whether the spears are worthy gameplay additions or not, since I don't really know. But I think making the spear regions have a glow is probably good enough. I think it is more intuitive now than it previously was.

In regards to icons, have you considered adjusting the sword X to a single sword per region? It may clear up any other confusion when the sword regions are intermixed in spear regions, since they are obviously very different from a mechanics point of view, but in terms of reality (and a random player hopping into a game on this map) spears and swords are both weapons (a la Colosseum map's use of multiple weapons like trident, sword, etc, sort of).


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Re: Labyrinth [7/8] Pages 1/10

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:12 pm

nole wrote:I will try to come up with something. Really just depends on what you're willing to do as far as space in the legend is concerned.

Thanks.
Will try anything. Never had a problem with trying new things and you might come up with something I had not thought of.
I thought you wanted to help wrote:how do you feel about removing the spears entirely from the GP

No reason to do it just yet. Many more maps have more complicated GP than this one.
boss man wrote:I agree with you, like your wording better.

See, we can work together. =D>
Andy wrote:In regards to icons, have you considered adjusting the sword X to a single sword per region

Will be done.
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Re: Labyrinth [7/8] Pages 1/10

Postby IcePack on Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:16 pm

How did I miss this map! I will look tonight and give comments. This is one that I feel is right up my alley :)

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Re: Labyrinth [7/8] Pages 1/10

Postby nolefan5311 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:41 pm

koontz1973 wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:how do you feel about removing the spears entirely from the GP

No reason to do it just yet. Many more maps have more complicated GP than this one.


It's not that they're overly complicating things, I think I just like the map better without them. They just seem a little quirky and out of place. The sirens and Medusa are definitely Greek mythology related, but spears aren't necessarily, and they seem to have more attack power than either the Sirens or Medusa.

koontz1973 wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:I agree with you, like your wording better.

See, we can work together. =D>


Did you ever doubt we could?
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Re: Labyrinth [7/8] Pages 1/10

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:47 pm

IcePack wrote:How did I miss this map! I will look tonight and give comments. This is one that I feel is right up my alley :)

IcePack

Thanks IcePack. Here is the latest one for you. Make any suggestions you want about everything.

Single sword.
Legend spaced out better.
Added the missing spear glow.
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Re: Labyrinth [7/8] Pages 1/10

Postby nolefan5311 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:49 pm

The spacing in the legend looks really good.
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Re: Labyrinth [7/8] Pages 1/10

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:53 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:The spacing in the legend looks really good.

Yeah, I think so too.


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Re: Labyrinth [7/8] Pages 1/10

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:57 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:The spacing in the legend looks really good.

Yeah, I think so too.


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And here I am thinking how bad it looks.

Leaving it for tonight (fresh hands and eyes) and will pick his up tomorrow. Any more comments chaps, I will go over them then.
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Re: Labyrinth [8/8] Pages 1/12

Postby IcePack on Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:31 pm

Well at first glance there are a few things that don't seem clear as to what they actually do.
I'll read the thread tonight to get clarification as to what the intent is, so maybe I can give feedback as to how to word it better?

But this is definitely something I'm excited about :)
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Re: Labyrinth [8/8] Pages 1/12

Postby nolefan5311 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:41 pm

IcePack wrote:Well at first glance there are a few things that don't seem clear as to what they actually do.
I'll read the thread tonight to get clarification as to what the intent is, so maybe I can give feedback as to how to word it better?

But this is definitely something I'm excited about :)


You shouldn't have to read the thread to learn this information, it should be clearly explained in the legend, so if there is any confusion, let us know :)
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Re: Labyrinth [8/8] Pages 1/12

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:07 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:
IcePack wrote:Well at first glance there are a few things that don't seem clear as to what they actually do.
I'll read the thread tonight to get clarification as to what the intent is, so maybe I can give feedback as to how to word it better?

But this is definitely something I'm excited about :)


You shouldn't have to read the thread to learn this information, it should be clearly explained in the legend, so if there is any confusion, let us know :)

I think icepack understands that, that is why they are going to re-read it to possibly come up with a wording that would make it so you wouldn't have to research!


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Re: Labyrinth [8/8] Pages 1/12

Postby nolefan5311 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:14 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:
IcePack wrote:Well at first glance there are a few things that don't seem clear as to what they actually do.
I'll read the thread tonight to get clarification as to what the intent is, so maybe I can give feedback as to how to word it better?

But this is definitely something I'm excited about :)


You shouldn't have to read the thread to learn this information, it should be clearly explained in the legend, so if there is any confusion, let us know :)

I think icepack understands that, that is why they are going to re-read it to possibly come up with a wording that would make it so you wouldn't have to research!


--Andy


Sounds good.
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Re: Labyrinth [8/8] Pages 1/12

Postby IcePack on Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:44 pm

Ok I took some time away and re read things. I think most of my earlier confusion is cleared up. Some things that would help / want to ensure I understand:

1) Siren call -1 per turn, is that -1 to the territory like Antarctica, or -1 to deploy?
2) same for traps.
3) It took a bit to understand the spears. I think one thing that made it take longer to click was medusa green gaze was noticeable. The white spear area was noticeable, but the beige blended so much in the legend I questioned it. Now I know what it is - I think the color should be altered to something that will show behind the spear in legend better. those borders on the map also tend to blend in with the (un)dead warriors.
4) Prom fire blocks all slave entrances, but you can't attack entrances without owning Prometheus first. Does this mean you must send ur troop stack thru Prometheus to hit an entrance? Or does be just unlock the ability to enter from the fire, where ur attack stack would need to be located? (or both?)
5) Dead warriors + "3" (three), the upper part of the top ring is so faint its actually hard to tell its a 3.

I think that's it for now, I'll do more when I get home (keep saying that but keep wanting to look now that I know this is here...)

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Re: Labyrinth [8/8] Pages 1/12

Postby isaiah40 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:12 pm

IcePack wrote:4) Prom fire blocks all slave entrances, but you can't attack entrances without owning Prometheus first. Does this mean you must send ur troop stack thru Prometheus to hit an entrance? Or does be just unlock the ability to enter from the fire, where ur attack stack would need to be located? (or both?)

This could be a good conditional border. Just thinking out loud.
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Re: Labyrinth [8/8] Pages 1/12

Postby IcePack on Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:52 pm

isaiah40 wrote:
IcePack wrote:4) Prom fire blocks all slave entrances, but you can't attack entrances without owning Prometheus first. Does this mean you must send ur troop stack thru Prometheus to hit an entrance? Or does be just unlock the ability to enter from the fire, where ur attack stack would need to be located? (or both?)

This could be a good conditional border. Just thinking out loud.


That's what I'm trying to clear up. Is the intent to unlock a conditional border, or just link prom to the slaves?
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Re: Labyrinth [8/8] Pages 1/12

Postby IcePack on Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:00 pm

Personally, i'd like to see the map shifted to the left. it looks like the ABCDEF line is centered to fill up crappily used space, and the right side with your names is packed in...while all the other borders are "thin" and nice looking, the left looks terrible.

Either that, or add a row of territories somewhere so the left side shifts over and narrows the rock border a bit so its thinner all around.

I realize you can't shrink because you need the room in the writing area, but that left side rock / impassible areas just looks like you didn't know what to do with it and centered the writing to fill in space...and it doesn't do the job (very well).

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Re: Labyrinth [8/8] Pages 1/12

Postby nolefan5311 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:13 pm

IcePack wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:
IcePack wrote:4) Prom fire blocks all slave entrances, but you can't attack entrances without owning Prometheus first. Does this mean you must send ur troop stack thru Prometheus to hit an entrance? Or does be just unlock the ability to enter from the fire, where ur attack stack would need to be located? (or both?)

This could be a good conditional border. Just thinking out loud.


That's what I'm trying to clear up. Is the intent to unlock a conditional border, or just link prom to the slaves?


It's to unlock a conditional border. Prometheus can't attack the slave entrances directly, but you have to hold it to attack the slave entrance from the adjacent region.
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Re: Labyrinth [8/8] Pages 1/12

Postby IcePack on Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:30 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:
IcePack wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:
IcePack wrote:4) Prom fire blocks all slave entrances, but you can't attack entrances without owning Prometheus first. Does this mean you must send ur troop stack thru Prometheus to hit an entrance? Or does be just unlock the ability to enter from the fire, where ur attack stack would need to be located? (or both?)

This could be a good conditional border. Just thinking out loud.


That's what I'm trying to clear up. Is the intent to unlock a conditional border, or just link prom to the slaves?


It's to unlock a conditional border. Prometheus can't attack the slave entrances directly, but you have to hold it to attack the slave entrance from the adjacent region.


The current wording that isn't very clear. It highlights prometheus more than prom fire, which makes it sound like my stack my be on Prom himself to hit the entrances. I wouldn't think that prom fire was "unlocked" with the current wording.

Slave entrances can only be attacked FROM PROM FIRE once prom is held, would be much clearer (but take up more space.)
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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
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Re: Labyrinth [8/8] Pages 1/12

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:35 am

See how this grabs you all.
1) Siren call -1 per turn, is that -1 to the territory like Antarctica, or -1 to deploy?

Changed wording to show this
2) same for traps.

Changed wording to show this
but the beige blended so much in the legend

Changed to a yellow. Should be easier to see and colour blind friendly.
4) Prom fire blocks all slave entrances, but you can't attack entrances without owning Prometheus first. Does this mean you must send ur troop stack thru Prometheus to hit an entrance? Or does be just unlock the ability to enter from the fire, where ur attack stack would need to be located? (or both?)

Changed wording. Should be clear now?
5) Dead warriors + "3" (three), the upper part of the top ring is so faint its actually hard to tell its a 3.

Not changed as missed it. Will be done today.
This could be a good conditional border. Just thinking out loud.

It is, is it now clear that it is?
Personally, i'd like to see the map shifted to the left. it looks like the ABCDEF line is centered to fill up crappily used space, and the right side with your names is packed in...while all the other borders are "thin" and nice looking, the left looks terrible.
Either that, or add a row of territories somewhere so the left side shifts over and narrows the rock border a bit so its thinner all around.

The left side was always going to be bigger as it had the letters in. Andy got me to shrink them to half size so as to get more room in the legend. This made the left look bigger than it really was. Adding the line of territs cannot be done as it then makes the columns become an uneven number and would throw out of whack everything. I am 20 pixels shy of having 2 columns added but would resist this as again it would force a rethink and redraw of everything.

Things done.
Spear glow colour change. As stated, colour blind friendly.
Changed legend wording for some parts to clear up IcePacks confusion and show the conditional border better.
Added 40 pixels to the right side of the map. This has given the room for the above legend changes. Map now at 840/800. Small will have to go to 630/600.
Legend icons now bigger.
Conditional border and losing condition have had an increase in font size to make them stand out better.
Changed the auto deploy for the slave entrances from +2 to +1. With the fire and conditional border now in effect, players will most likely stack troops here and not come out once out.
Click image to enlarge.
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To do list.
Put monster graphic on the right side of the walls to mirror the warriors on the left.
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Re: Labyrinth [9/8] Pages 1/13

Postby IcePack on Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:47 am

Looks much better. The yellow shows up on my 100% better, still hard to see / notice on the parchment below. You've made darker spots / areas on parchment to age it, perhaps you can age the area beneath the spears to make the yellow stand out a bit?

On traps, I think I would prefer "Traps -1 deploy" on line 1 and "each turn" centered line 2?
It's strange seeing just traps on one line and the description on the other wedged in, when you did the opposite for Prometheus fire. There you added kills to its line, when you could have fit it below. I just think it would look better visually.

Maybe contrast / darken the warriors in rock (didn't notice them @ first) as it still looks visually blank, and I'd like to see a nicer / more creative way to display your names. The way it is now just seems tacky/sloppy, but I don't have any hard specific suggestions fr improvement.

But I really like the improvements :)
IcePack
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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
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12:15:35 ‹Swifte› well that's just bad timing
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Re: Labyrinth [9/8] Pages 1/13

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:11 pm

IcePack wrote:Looks much better. The yellow shows up on my 100% better, still hard to see / notice on the parchment below. You've made darker spots / areas on parchment to age it, perhaps you can age the area beneath the spears to make the yellow stand out a bit?

Can do.

On traps, I think I would prefer "Traps -1 deploy" on line 1 and "each turn" centered line 2?
It's strange seeing just traps on one line and the description on the other wedged in, when you did the opposite for Prometheus fire. There you added kills to its line, when you could have fit it below. I just think it would look better visually.

Again, can do.

Maybe contrast / darken the warriors in rock (didn't notice them @ first) as it still looks visually blank, and I'd like to see a nicer / more creative way to display your names. The way it is now just seems tacky/sloppy, but I don't have any hard specific suggestions fr improvement.

But I really like the improvements :)
IcePack

The warriors in the rock are not really meant to be seen straight out. They have been on since version 2 or 3 and you are the first person to notice them, and that may of been because I mentioned them. I do not want them brought out more though. Names where just put on like this for the very reason that they need to go on. This will be changed as it was only a quick one for spacing terms.

Thanks for popping back in.
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Re: Labyrinth [9/8] Pages 1/13

Postby IcePack on Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:24 pm

I noticed them before just didn't have much comment. The more I look at them, the more I think the bottom one should stay and the top one should go. It looks just like a copy paste to fill space.

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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
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12:15:35 ‹Swifte› well that's just bad timing
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