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Re: Greek Games [20/5] V5 Pg2.

Postby koontz1973 on Mon May 21, 2012 10:04 am

nebsmith, thanks, that is a great help, but I think I got slightly confused so if I have this wrong, let me know. Each starting position now has a food within two territs and all 8 now have to go the same distance for the three (for a bonus).

Swords will be changed to spears (next update) and have reduced there range to 3. Is that wise? I have left a slight disparity between the starting territs and the swords. This will give a clue to players in fog games and stop the starting positions being completely the same. It might force players to change tactics depending on there start.
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Re: Greek Games [21/5] V5 P3

Postby nebsmith on Tue May 22, 2012 10:34 am

Almost what I had in mind.

The food near the Starting positions would also have a sword on the same territory.

Swords on B4 and L12 would be removed

The 4 central swords and the other food stay as they are.

The bonuses would be for holding 3 swords or 3 food

Spears with a range of 3 or 4 at D8 and K9
That way up to six different players could hold a food or sword bonus.

But maybe your idea of a deliberate disparity in starting positions is a better one. But I don't think you can have bombard weapons close to only 2 start points. So I think if you go with the disparity it should be along with the bonus for holding 3 swords
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Re: Greek Games [21/5] V5 P3

Postby koontz1973 on Tue May 22, 2012 1:19 pm

Taken the swords and moved them. But not onto the same squares as the food. This might cause some confusion later but it can be adjusted if it is OK. But each SP now has food and weapon. I changed the weapons to +3 for 5 held and the food stays at +1 for 3 held. The spears are where you said with a range of 3. This sounds good at it allows to hit over the long walls. Should be fun in fog games.

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I am thinking of changing the sirens. Remove the 2 central dead warriors and have these 2 areas for them. Have them, with only a 1 neutral for the 4 squares but the bonus would be only 2. Then where I have them now, put in another trap. Any one like this idea?
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Re: Greek Games [22/5] V6 P3

Postby nebsmith on Tue May 22, 2012 5:00 pm

That could work, I think it provides a better balance with the Sirens moved to the central Dead warriors

but with the neutrals at only 1 the traps on H6 & G9 would have to be quite big to slow down the route to Hades for the centre start points.
Have you dropped the idea of losing conditions for some of the traps because you could use them H6 & G9

You would need to replace the Sirens with a large neutral to keep the middle starting points apart too.

Actually what would work is keep the sirens where they are but have it so you cannot attack from a Siren - the Allure. Maybe you could keep the sirens as the extra bonus for the centre starts would balance the extra movement form Pegasus for the corner starts.

Have you considered having an Auto-deploy on the Spears ?
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Re: Greek Games [22/5] V6 P3

Postby chapcrap on Tue May 22, 2012 5:51 pm

So many components. Every time there is an update, my head gets blown.
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Re: Greek Games [22/5] V6 P3

Postby nolefan5311 on Tue May 22, 2012 10:57 pm

chapcrap wrote:So many components. Every time there is an update, my head gets blown.


Agreed. However, it does appear this is close to the Stamp so I will go ahead and get it stickied.
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Re: Greek Games [22/5] V6 P3

Postby koontz1973 on Tue May 22, 2012 11:05 pm

nebsmith, you are right, lowering the neutrals for the new sirens would allow the centre to have easier access to Hades. Kept the dead warriors. I like the idea of the sirens not being able to attack though and is in. Auto deploy for the spears would make them too powerful IMO so it is left out. If more want it then it can go in but I would suggest it as a one only and then also add two more. Not dropped the idea of a losing condition trap, but have not found a way to make it work yet. Symbol and wording for the legend makes this one a lot harder to fit in.

chapcrap, I hope that is a nice way to say you like.

Thanks nole for the sticky.

I think the components for this one are pretty much finalised now. Anything new can go onto level 2. ;)
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Lets have a look at numbers. Neutrals, starting troop amount, reinforcements.

Impassable walls. Remove any of the blocks? Keep thinking of removing (D7/10)(K7/10)(F&I 5)(F&I 12.Not sure if this would make it to open but it is worth thinking about.

Graphics, hope you like the new sirens. :D I think I am in love. :-^
Anything you lot want changed, better to tell me now than in final forge. :P
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Re: Greek Games [22/5] V6 P3

Postby nolefan5311 on Tue May 22, 2012 11:19 pm

Perhaps you can make the Pegasus border the Sirens? Starting on the J or Epsilon starting positions could be a pretty big advantage being closer to more possible bonuses, so I think you either need to make them more accessible from the corner points, or perhaps give some sort of bonus for the Pegasus.

What does "Medusa gaze turns all to stone" mean? That troops that are positioned there are stuck there?

I also think there are too many trap doors positioned in the Alpha and Pi rows. Maybe move them more towards the center of the map. It seems to be another disadvantage for the starting corner positions.

As far as impassables, I think it would be a little more cool to remove them from C6 /C11 and L6/L11 to add another path, instead of adding to the cluster already there.

As far as bonuses, I think because the map is small and there's a ton of bonus potential, it might be worth thinking about getting rid of the region bonus. Just an idea, I don't know how you feel about that.
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Re: Greek Games [23/5] V7 P3

Postby koontz1973 on Tue May 22, 2012 11:28 pm

With pegasus bordering the sirens, how about removing the wall at H3 and G14. Put a pegasus into those two territs so only one from the centre SP have easy access to it. Again, this adds a little disparity to the SP which is not always a bad thing.

Medusa gaze turns all to stone = killer neutral. Tried to keep the wording within the realms of the world. Any ideas?

A8 + N9 traps, move them to? or just remove them.

C6 /C11 and L6/L11 Will remove these, good idea.

I like region bonuses as it will not kill of a player when he is hit by hades. But if it is not wanted, out it will come.
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Re: Greek Games [23/5] V7 P3

Postby nolefan5311 on Wed May 23, 2012 9:41 am

koontz1973 wrote:With pegasus bordering the sirens, how about removing the wall at H3 and G14. Put a pegasus into those two territs so only one from the centre SP have easy access to it. Again, this adds a little disparity to the SP which is not always a bad thing.


Hmm. I don't know if that really solves the problem I was envisioning, as adding another bonus to the center of the map only increases the possible bonuses for the center start positions. As is, I think the corner start positions are at a disadvantage, both bonus wise and the positioning of some of the trap doors (more on that below).

koontz1973 wrote:Medusa gaze turns all to stone = killer neutral. Tried to keep the wording within the realms of the world. Any ideas?


Hmm. I think you sort of need to be explicit in that it's a killer neutral. Or perhaps you don't make it a killer neutral. As is, having to kill 4 men to receive a +2 bonus and then it being a killer neutral, I don't know if anyone would bother taking it as they could only collect once then would be forced to take out 4 more neutrals.

koontz1973 wrote:A8 + N9 traps, move them to? or just remove them.


I was thinking more about moving the Pi IV and Pi XIII and A IV and A XIII more to the center of the map. Perhaps move them to Epsilon V and XII and J V and XII so that each player has to cross at least one of them to get to Hades. The positioning of most of them has me confused, and I'm not sure how integral you want them to be in the gameplay.

koontz1973 wrote:I like region bonuses as it will not kill of a player when he is hit by hades. But if it is not wanted, out it will come.


This is completely up to you, I was just throwing it out there. You make a good point though.
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Re: Greek Games [23/5] V7 P3

Postby koontz1973 on Wed May 23, 2012 10:07 am

Hmm. I don't know if that really solves the problem I was envisioning, as adding another bonus to the center of the map only increases the possible bonuses for the center start positions. As is, I think the corner start positions are at a disadvantage, both bonus wise and the positioning of some of the trap doors (more on that below).

Pegasus has no bonus. It just allows you to move around the outside of the board.
Hmm. I think you sort of need to be explicit in that it's a killer neutral. Or perhaps you don't make it a killer neutral. As is, having to kill 4 men to receive a +2 bonus and then it being a killer neutral, I don't know if anyone would bother taking it as they could only collect once then would be forced to take out 4 more neutrals.

Kept the killer neutral and changed the wording. Lowered the neutral to a 3 though. As you said, it is a higher neutral but players can go around it if they wanted to.
I was thinking more about moving the Pi IV and Pi XIII and A IV and A XIII more to the center of the map. Perhaps move them to Epsilon V and XII and J V and XII so that each player has to cross at least one of them to get to Hades. The positioning of most of them has me confused, and I'm not sure how integral you want them to be in the gameplay.

Will remove these 4 and place somewhere else. I wanted them differently at the start of the map but for now they stay at a -1 bonus. I want to give each player at least two choices to get to hades. A quick way with the trap and a slightly longer way without. But that was the way when it was a losing condition. Now it has changed to a negative bonus so they can almost become random. I would like to keep the traps in some form as they where integral to this period of time and as well as the stories this borrows from.

The traps you say to remove, no one would force a player to take them, they can go for the bonus of dead warriors. It is more neutrals so slower in getting through. Thus, the idea of a quick dangerious way, or a slower safer way. Both have pitfalls and advantages.
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Re: Greek Games [23/5] V7 P3

Postby army of nobunaga on Wed May 23, 2012 5:33 pm

you are going to think I am crazy, but I would make this a 10 person map by adding a start at the top and at the bottom.

This map could support 10 players and if the update ever came you would have the first 10 person map. I think adding the top and bottom starting position would add a lot of depth too.


Other than that crazy idea, I really like where this is going atm. You are really making a lot of innovating maps.
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Re: Greek Games [23/5] V7 P3

Postby chapcrap on Wed May 23, 2012 5:54 pm

army of nobunaga wrote:you are going to think I am crazy, but I would make this a 10 person map by adding a start at the top and at the bottom.

This map could support 10 players and if the update ever came you would have the first 10 person map. I think adding the top and bottom starting position would add a lot of depth too.


Other than that crazy idea, I really like where this is going atm. You are really making a lot of innovating maps.

Have you seen Clandemonium?
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Re: Greek Games [23/5] V7 P3

Postby army of nobunaga on Wed May 23, 2012 7:17 pm

chapcrap wrote:
army of nobunaga wrote:you are going to think I am crazy, but I would make this a 10 person map by adding a start at the top and at the bottom.

This map could support 10 players and if the update ever came you would have the first 10 person map. I think adding the top and bottom starting position would add a lot of depth too.


Other than that crazy idea, I really like where this is going atm. You are really making a lot of innovating maps.

Have you seen Clandemonium?



Dont even get me started on that one...

I guess it is 10 person capable, but who would play it?


edit : but yeah I did forget about that one.

edit 2 - man this was just a "that would be cool" thing. I seriously doubt Koontz wants to rework the map in this sort of manner.
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Re: Greek Games [23/5] V7 P3

Postby koontz1973 on Wed May 23, 2012 11:30 pm

Already been suggested to have this as a 12 person map, and you are right, reworking this one is an option but not one I want. But I have started working out level two which has 12 starting positions on it.
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Re: Greek Games [23/5] V7 P3

Postby army of nobunaga on Wed May 23, 2012 11:36 pm

koontz1973 wrote:Already been suggested to have this as a 12 person map, and you are right, reworking this one is an option but not one I want. But I have started working out level two which has 12 starting positions on it.



nice man, and I figured as much.

The thing about a 12 man map with 12 starting positions is that I think it would be COOL to play with 5 -7 men, because there is so much more depth in figuring out if you want to go after more bonus or not in empty starting areas.
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Re: Greek Games [23/5] V7 P3

Postby lostatlimbo on Thu May 24, 2012 1:18 am

Cool idea and interesting execution. Could be fun.

My first instinct is that the name Greek Games = ancient Olympic games.

The monsters/theme seems a lot more Sinbad/original Clash of the Titans. I think you should embrace that theme over the loose association to ancient greece. It fits your graphics style well.

Myths & Monsters would be a cool title.

Would be cool if you could work in Cyclops as well. Probably more applicable than Hades. If I'm not mistaken, Hades had little or nothing to do with these other creatures.

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Re: Greek Games [23/5] V7 P3

Postby nebsmith on Thu May 24, 2012 11:09 am

I don't think you should reposition anything - you just need to make the 2 traps on the quick route to Hades big enough to slow players down.
The way the neutrals are set now the corner starts can get to hades by going through 12 territories with 14 neutrals and pick up a bonus of 6 from the Dead warriors on the way.
The center starts are - for the closest - 7 territories + the trap with 9 neutrals and a 6 Bonus, so if you make the center traps start at 10 neutral that will even things out.
The center start points can go the long way round and if they do they are the same distance away as the corners.

You could make the other traps 5 neutral.
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Re: Greek Games [23/5] V7 P3

Postby chapcrap on Thu May 24, 2012 4:06 pm

army of nobunaga wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:Already been suggested to have this as a 12 person map, and you are right, reworking this one is an option but not one I want. But I have started working out level two which has 12 starting positions on it.



nice man, and I figured as much.

The thing about a 12 man map with 12 starting positions is that I think it would be COOL to play with 5 -7 men, because there is so much more depth in figuring out if you want to go after more bonus or not in empty starting areas.

Also, KC2 has 10 positions...

Anyway, I agree with neb.
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Re: Greek Games [23/5] V7 P3

Postby nolefan5311 on Thu May 24, 2012 5:48 pm

Let's go ahead and get this moved to the MFW. Congrats on the first stamp koontz!

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Re: Greek Games [23/5] V7 P3

Postby koontz1973 on Thu May 24, 2012 10:07 pm

Cheers nole.
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Re: Greek Games [23/5] V7 P3

Postby koontz1973 on Thu May 24, 2012 11:45 pm

And now for the next update and on towards the GP stamp.
Changes.
Grass now has a path that is worn.
Added two Pegasuses.
Changed the layout of the legend and added a key for the different neutrals.
Click image to enlarge.
image


Starting positions should be roughly equal now. I have tried to balance them but would like some difference between them.
Hades.
Hades is now at 15 neutrals as he has a lot of power. This is a mid to late game territ as all he can do is bombard if no other bonuses have been taken.
All 8 now have to go through 14 neutrals to get to hades without a trap.
The 4 corner ones can get to Hades with 12 neutrals if they go through a trap.
The centre ones are 10 or 12 neutrals if they go through a trap.
This is the reason for the traps. Get to the centre quicker but with a penalty.
Pegasus.
Pegasus has no bonus but allows players to move around the outside of the board relatively quickly. Because of this, the four corner ones have a trap beside them.
Dead Warriors.
Corner starting positions have to take 10 neutrals before they can get this bonus. The centre 4 territs have 11 or 12 neutrals to take before getting a dead warrior bonus. To compinsate for this disparity they get the Siren bonus.
Sirens.
The 4 centre territs have this bonus of 2 to fight over. To grab this, they have either 7 or 8 neutrals to kill. Sirens cannot attack so it is a dead end if taken. Forcing players to move around the wall and dead warriors to attack another player.
Food and Weapons
Same style bonus but at different rates. All territs have the same amount of neutrals to grab either bonus within 1 neutral.
Spears.
No bonus but can bombard up to 3 territs away including over the walls.
Medusa
Two of these at 3 neutrals apiece. Holding either one gives you a +2 bonus but it is surrounded by lots of killer neutral.
Minitor
4 of these ones at 2 neutrals each. A +1 bonus for each.


Lets see what changes can be made. ;)


lostatlimbo wrote:My first instinct is that the name Greek Games = ancient Olympic games.
Myths & Monsters would be a cool title.
Would be cool if you could work in Cyclops as well. Probably more applicable than Hades. If I'm not mistaken, Hades had little or nothing to do with these other creatures.
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The Olympic games would be a great idea to do as a map and with the next one in London, I would love to do it but I have a feeling that one might be made soon.
As for the title, I will add yours as a sub title as it really fits.
Cyclops may not be a bad idea and have tried to fit it in to this map, but could not draw one that was good enough. But it is making an appearance soon though (but not on this map).
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Re: Greek Games [25/5] V8 P3

Postby nebsmith on Fri May 25, 2012 8:52 am

I Like it all, very clear and it looks really good.
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Re: Greek Games [25/5] V8 P3

Postby chapcrap on Fri May 25, 2012 5:44 pm

nebsmith wrote:I Like it all, very clear and it looks really good.

I would say by clear he means understandable.

One thing I would change are the font in the key. I don't have a problem with the font itself, but it's showing up very pixely in the key. Something that looks smoother would be better.

Also, the darkness of the starting positions. Kind of hard to see a few of those numbers. Make it a lighter shade of brown?
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Re: Greek Games [25/5] V8 P3

Postby koontz1973 on Sat May 26, 2012 6:47 am

chapcrap wrote:One thing I would change are the font in the key. I don't have a problem with the font itself, but it's showing up very pixely in the key. Something that looks smoother would be better.

Smoother text.
chapcrap wrote:Also, the darkness of the starting positions. Kind of hard to see a few of those numbers. Make it a lighter shade of brown?

Better?
Click image to enlarge.
image


Does everyone understand the territ naming system. I know it works for Knights but this is a bigger map.
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