[Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Proposed Changes (7/3/14)

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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

Postby koontz1973 on Fri May 03, 2013 12:16 am

dolomite13 wrote:I am having issues with Nukes games on my Conquer 500 map and I think something similar could happen with this map. A random nuke could take out your special denying you access to that bonus. Likewise you could lose your race and the favored territory bonuses. Dropping you from 26 bonus to a max of 10.

Is there any way we could fix this with conditional borders... for instance if you lose your kingdom you can reclaim it from your any of your favored territory if you control all 4 of your favored territory... I do worry that someone who lost their kingdom could conquer 4 of someone else's favored territory and then take out that persons kingdom.

=D=

I do not see this as an issue. Since nukes came out, it has changed dramatically some maps. Look at maps with losing conditions like Antarctica. Das Schlob, you can lose your parachute and all those lovely auto deploys. Players know this when playing nukes and accept it.
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

Postby dolomite13 on Fri May 03, 2013 1:04 am

ok if your cool with it ...

Whats the verdict on graphics... can I start lookin at XML

=D=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

Postby isaiah40 on Fri May 03, 2013 11:15 am

dolomite13 wrote:ok if your cool with it ...

Whats the verdict on graphics... can I start lookin at XML

=D=

I was making sure that you were finished working out the extra gameplay. Now that you seem to be done, I will look at this a little closer over the next couple of days.
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

Postby dolomite13 on Fri May 03, 2013 7:36 pm

isaiah40 wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:ok if your cool with it ...

Whats the verdict on graphics... can I start lookin at XML

=D=

I was making sure that you were finished working out the extra gameplay. Now that you seem to be done, I will look at this a little closer over the next couple of days.


Sounds good ... I think the extra gameplay seems worked out ... I only have 2 concerns about Nuke games...

1) fanatics and Wizards rely on you having a favored territory.
2) you can lose your race and not recover it hence also lose a favored territory.

I don't want to add another resource type for fanatics or wizards and still can't think of an elegant way to get your race back if it gets nuked. Players that lose a race or special ability will not be happy that's for sure.

I guess we could leave it as is and see how much rage it brings when it happens in beta.

=D=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

Postby koontz1973 on Sat May 04, 2013 12:01 am

dolomite13 wrote:1) fanatics and Wizards rely on you having a favored territory.
2) you can lose your race and not recover it hence also lose a favored territory.

And as I have said, nukes change a lot of games. These are not huge and you should not concern yourself with it. Having each of the races slightly different means you get different strategy for them.
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

Postby dolomite13 on Sat May 04, 2013 1:53 pm

koontz1973 wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:1) fanatics and Wizards rely on you having a favored territory.
2) you can lose your race and not recover it hence also lose a favored territory.

And as I have said, nukes change a lot of games. These are not huge and you should not concern yourself with it. Having each of the races slightly different means you get different strategy for them.


True I will say I am good with game play then.

=D=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

Postby dolomite13 on Wed May 08, 2013 1:09 pm

Gilligan has graciously offered to take control of the XML on this one.

This makes me so happy as his work on other maps XML has been fantastic.

=D=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

Postby isaiah40 on Wed May 15, 2013 4:10 pm

This map is a pleasure to look at! I don't see anything, unless my eyes are too old and can't see clearly. 8-[
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

Postby dolomite13 on Wed May 15, 2013 5:43 pm

Just noticed J1, J2, J3, J4 are in the wrong order... I tried to number territories so that all player starting territories ended in the number 1 and then they were numbered by distance from territory 1 with 2 being the next closest and 4 being the farthest.

=D=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

Postby RedBaron0 on Thu May 16, 2013 9:59 pm

Sounds like a simple fix, and I don't see any issue either, and I see perfectly fine. :P Lets hear any last concerns on this one kids.
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

Postby EricPhail on Sun May 19, 2013 3:49 pm

Okay this is my first time looking at this map so things may have been answered already:

1. Wizards: given you must conquer maestrom from a favourite territory and its a killer neutral, is the bombardment from maelstrom itself to your favourite territories a bit redundant, since your favourite territories are now adjacent?

Also the maestrom symbols should have the same coloration (all pale or none pale) minor nitpick but...

2. General terminology:
I am assuming that by borders you mean is next to, and adjacent means can be reinforced/attacked from/to (otherwise the concept of adjacency seems a needless description with no value)
BUT
given that borders is the word used for attacks/reinforces across this line both ways in both the standard rules and in the BOB rollover description (ie. territory a borders territory b) Is this choice of wording not confusing since you've effectively change the meaning of a site wide word for this maps legend only

3. The legend is worded such that the elementalist bonus is given if you control 2 volcanos or 2 tundra but not twice if you control both is the case? If not VV +2 TT+2 is clearer

4. Druid bonus as elementalist in 3. above

5. Given plains has 2 crypts and tundra 2 radiation, (all other types have 1 each of 2 types save volcanos which only has a crypt)
is the drop of Humans + dwellers or Yeti + cultists unfairly powerfull

6. Dragonkin seems the weakest race because volcanoes are the only terrain type not to border the forbidden lands, and they only have one feature (1 crypt) where everyone else has 2, or am I just reading to much into that?
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

Postby dolomite13 on Sun May 19, 2013 11:41 pm

EricPhail wrote:1. Wizards: given you must conquer maestrom from a favourite territory and its a killer neutral, is the bombardment from maelstrom itself to your favourite territories a bit redundant, since your favourite territories are now adjacent?


I would like a way to use up forces that you have on the maelstrom so you don't get anything stuck there but maybe its not necessary at all. I thint that the bombard can be removed. Or maybe the bombard can be changed to bombards the forbidden lands.

Any thoughts about that?

EricPhail wrote:Also the maestrom symbols should have the same coloration (all pale or none pale) minor nitpick but...


Agreed...

EricPhail wrote:2. General terminology:
I am assuming that by borders you mean is next to, and adjacent means can be reinforced/attacked from/to (otherwise the concept of adjacency seems a needless description with no value)
BUT
given that borders is the word used for attacks/reinforces across this line both ways in both the standard rules and in the BOB rollover description (ie. territory a borders territory b) Is this choice of wording not confusing since you've effectively change the meaning of a site wide word for this maps legend only


I will look at the terminology... thanks...

EricPhail wrote:3. The legend is worded such that the elementalist bonus is given if you control 2 volcanos or 2 tundra but not twice if you control both is the case? If not VV +2 TT+2 is clearer


Agreed this can be laid out better.

EricPhail wrote:4. Druid bonus as elementalist in 3. above


Agreed...

EricPhail wrote:5. Given plains has 2 crypts and tundra 2 radiation, (all other types have 1 each of 2 types save volcanos which only has a crypt)
is the drop of Humans + dwellers or Yeti + cultists unfairly powerfull


If the symbols on P4 and T3 swap and we swap f3 and d4 it would balance them a bot better... any thoughts?

EricPhail wrote:6. Dragonkin seems the weakest race because volcanoes are the only terrain type not to border the forbidden lands, and they only have one feature (1 crypt) where everyone else has 2, or am I just reading to much into that?


Actually volcano's and desert's don't... but since you start with only one territory, what borders the forbidden lands isn't really that important as by the time you can utilize it you will most likely have at least half of the map.

Good stuff Eric* very good stuff.

The interesting thing about this map will be how the players react to what race/special combos everyone starts with. If one is seen as overpowered I expect that people will target that player first and it will be a strategy that develops over time as people play the map. The real goal of this map is not 100% balance but a map that gives us a lot of variety and changes our strategies every game. And I think that what we have will do just that.

=D=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

Postby EricPhail on Mon May 20, 2013 7:17 am

Dolomite:

The symbol swap re:5 looks like it would improve balance a bit so I like that

6. You're right I didn't notice desert also missed the forbidden lands, and I take your point, it probably doesn't matter (but its better we at least talked about it, rather than letting it pass unremarked)

Glad I could help (looks really good btw)
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

Postby RedBaron0 on Sat May 25, 2013 10:22 pm

Just kinda waiting on an update for these recent suggestions and you'll be likely good-to-go here dolomite.
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

Postby dolomite13 on Sun May 26, 2013 12:13 am

RedBaron0 wrote:Just kinda waiting on an update for these recent suggestions and you'll be likely good-to-go here dolomite.

Probably have an update this or next week sometime. Just started a new job and been super busy with that and my freelance wen dev work.

=D=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

Postby dolomite13 on Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:05 am

dolomite13 wrote:
RedBaron0 wrote:Just kinda waiting on an update for these recent suggestions and you'll be likely good-to-go here dolomite.

Probably have an update this or next week sometime. Just started a new job and been super busy with that and my freelance wen dev work.

=D=


Just checking in as I didn't want you to think I abandoned work on it. I have time set aside tomorrow evening for CC map development and will post the update late tomorrow =)

=D=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

Postby RedBaron0 on Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:51 pm

dolomite13 wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:
RedBaron0 wrote:Just kinda waiting on an update for these recent suggestions and you'll be likely good-to-go here dolomite.

Probably have an update this or next week sometime. Just started a new job and been super busy with that and my freelance wen dev work.

=D=


Just checking in as I didn't want you to think I abandoned work on it. I have time set aside tomorrow evening for CC map development and will post the update late tomorrow =)

=D=


uh huh... make it quick, you're over as it is.
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

Postby dolomite13 on Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:09 pm

RedBaron0 wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:
RedBaron0 wrote:Just kinda waiting on an update for these recent suggestions and you'll be likely good-to-go here dolomite.

Probably have an update this or next week sometime. Just started a new job and been super busy with that and my freelance wen dev work.

=D=


Just checking in as I didn't want you to think I abandoned work on it. I have time set aside tomorrow evening for CC map development and will post the update late tomorrow =)

=D=


uh huh... make it quick, you're over as it is.


I know ... I might even do the update this evening as the wife decided to go out with work friends to happy hour which means I have a bit of free time this evenin =)

=D=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Map Update (6/3)

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:24 am

Made a few changes... here we go
- maelstrom no longer bombards
- J1 - J4 order shifted a bit to make it consistent with other territories
- swapped a few icons in T4-P4 and F3-D4
- reworded a few things to make them clearer
- large map is 840 x 800 and small map is now 620 x 590 (down from 630 wide)

=D13=

Starting Forces - http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/6117/kk024start.png

http://imageshack.us/a/img59/7667/kk024sm.png
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http://imageshack.us/a/img402/1184/kk024lg.png
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Map Update (6/3)

Postby EricPhail on Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:37 am

Nice, liking the improved legend entries for Elementalists and druids, wording looks cleaner to me.

Which leaves wizards (consitent colouring of the maelstrom icons) as the only thing I can see that looks a bit iffy

So other than that, looks good :)
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Map Update (6/3)

Postby RedBaron0 on Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:29 pm

I'm having an extremely difficult time interpreting the legend, the special features primarily. The Wizards is especially confusing.

I do see what Eric is saying about the Maelstrom icons, the bigger one is pink in the middle, while the littler ones are redder, the colors should be consistent.
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Map Update (6/3)

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:29 pm

RedBaron0 wrote:I'm having an extremely difficult time interpreting the legend, the special features primarily. The Wizards is especially confusing.

I do see what Eric is saying about the Maelstrom icons, the bigger one is pink in the middle, while the littler ones are redder, the colors should be consistent.


I am not at all satisfied with Wizards and think I have an idea how it can be changed to make it cooler and easier to understand. I would start by removing the maelstrom and all existing abilities and replace them as follows.

Key Entry
[F] Territories that border the forbidden lands

Wizards
2x[F] +2
4x[F] +5
6x[F] +8

This would shrink the height of the wizards area and give me some wiggle room elsewhere for clarifications.

I will also take another pass at all of the abilities and the key to see if there is any way to make it easier to understand.

=D13=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Map Update (6/3)

Postby EricPhail on Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:29 pm

dolomite13 wrote:Key Entry
[F] Territories that border the forbidden lands

Wizards
[F][F] +2
[F][F][F][F] +5
[F][F][F][F][F][F] +8

This would shrink the height of the wizards area and give me some wiggle room elsewhere for clarifications.

I will also take another pass at all of the abilities and the key to see if there is any way to make it easier to understand.

=D13=


Nice idea, could work:
You'll need something other than [F] though since that will be too easily confused for forest - [Fl] maybe, or perhaps a similar symbol (in black) to the adjacent to seas one (but that would have to be notably different to the aformentioned adj(seas) symbol to avoid confusion - diagonal break in the other direction perhaps)
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Map Update (6/3)

Postby dolomite13 on Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:38 pm

I have been working on cleaning up the key and changing wizards and I realized that "Fishermen" is just plain weird. I would like to change them to "Aquatic" and change seas as follows.

Old Way
-- Seas cannot be assault or be assaulted

Fishermen
- Can assault seas
- Seas autodeploy 2
- Seas that border are territories you control are adjacent
* This allows you to conquer a sea then reinforce across the sea if you control territories on both sides.

New Way
-- Seas can be bombarded by and can assault bordering territories

Aquatic
- Can assault seas
- Seas +2 bonus each
* this allows you to conquer and then assault from seas effectively taking them away as impassible terrain for you.

Thoughts???

=D13=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Map Update (6/3)

Postby EricPhail on Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:49 pm

Could work, it leaves seas as an eternal spoil location for everyone else mind (TBH I'd leave it as it is for now see how people find it in beta) but if you like the new version better (to balance the bonus correctly, + 1 each , +5 for all might be a better starting position - +2 each is going to be overpowered for sure)
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