[Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Proposed Changes (7/3/14)

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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Graphics Tweaks 7/3

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:53 pm

dolomite13 wrote:
-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:Gilligan, any idea how long the XML should take for this? It seems like it would probably be a pretty complicated XML file.


Probably a month ... not really sure... it is extremely complicated.

=D13=


A month wouldn't be too bad. Better than the 3+ years that I've been waiting for Research and Conquer :) My premium will probably be gone by then, but I can at least still play the map in casual games.
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Graphics Tweaks 7/19

Postby RedBaron0 on Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:21 pm

After a krazy amount to time to the final check, this is most deserved:

Image
ImageImageImage
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Graphics Tweaks 7/19

Postby cairnswk on Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:08 pm

Congrats dolomite13 =D> =D>
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Graphics Tweaks 7/19

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:33 am

Congrats dolomite, onwards to XML once Gilligan returns from vacation, yay! :)
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Graphics Tweaks 7/19

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:06 am

=) Yea!

Soon my Fanatical Undead Wizard Murklords will be ready for battle.

=D13=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Let the XML Begin!

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:01 pm

So it may not be possible to have aquatic function as it is currently designed based on XML and the game engine. If we cannot have both borders and bombards from territory A to territory B at the same time then I will have to redesign it a bit.

Solution will most likely be to take away the bombard of seas from bordering territories and make seas killer 3

And to change aquatic from.

==assault==> seas
seas +1 each
seas +4 if you have all 4 seas


to this

==assault==> seas
territories that borders seas are +1 for every 2 up to a max of +8


=D13=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Let the XML Begin!

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:09 pm

dolomite13 wrote:So it may not be possible to have aquatic function as it is currently designed based on XML and the game engine. If we cannot have both borders and bombards from territory A to territory B at the same time then I will have to redesign it a bit.

Solution will most likely be to take away the bombard of seas from bordering territories and make seas killer 3

And to change aquatic from.

==assault==> seas
seas +1 each
seas +4 if you have all 4 seas


to this

==assault==> seas
territories that borders seas are +1 for every 2 up to a max of +8


=D13=


I think that's a better option than the few I was able to come up with, none of which really seemed right.

I also noticed an error in gameplay balance. I believe the J2/F4 and J4/F2 pairs need to have their territory names/types swapped. Everyone else has a territory every 3 away from the next, whereas Treefolk and Lizardmen both have 4 territories in between their first and second favored territory, which gives them a distinct disadvantage. Swapping those two pairs will make it so they've also got their favored territories 3 away from each other.

I'll leave it up to dolomite as to whether he thinks it's worth changing these this late in design, but if it doesn't cause too big of a headache, I think it would be worth balancing the gameplay out that little bit more.
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Let the XML Begin!

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:11 pm

Unfortunately that will result in broken "personal continents" and 1 less adjacent-to-favored territory for each. I would rather have them the way they are as I don;t see the same issue you do. And if their is a slight advantage here then it's really slight as the map is so small.

This image shows each player's "personal continent".

Image

=D13=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Let the XML Begin!

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:26 pm

dolomite13 wrote:Unfortunately that will result in broken "personal continents" and 1 less adjacent-to-favored territory for each. I would rather have them the way they are as I don;t see the same issue you do. And if their is a slight advantage here then it's really slight as the map is so small.

This image shows each player's "personal continent".

Image

=D13=


The problem that you're missing is for Treefolk and Lizardman to have their second favored territory only 3 spots away, they have to be able to cross the chasm, which means they have to move forward one extra spot at the beginning to be able to take the chasm as their second territory, hence their second favored territory is 4 away unless they own the two sides of the chasm beside their start territory later in the game.

If you take another look at what I suggested, you'll find it doesn't disrupt the personal continents of the Treefolk or Lizardmen, all the territories are still 3 spots away from one another, so the various continent parts will all still connect. Or is there some other part of the continents that is concerning you other than their remaining connected?
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Let the XML Begin!

Postby dolomite13 on Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:21 am

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:Unfortunately that will result in broken "personal continents" and 1 less adjacent-to-favored territory for each. I would rather have them the way they are as I don;t see the same issue you do. And if their is a slight advantage here then it's really slight as the map is so small.

This image shows each player's "personal continent".

http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/4143/pcchasms.png

=D13=


The problem that you're missing is for Treefolk and Lizardman to have their second favored territory only 3 spots away, they have to be able to cross the chasm, which means they have to move forward one extra spot at the beginning to be able to take the chasm as their second territory, hence their second favored territory is 4 away unless they own the two sides of the chasm beside their start territory later in the game.

If you take another look at what I suggested, you'll find it doesn't disrupt the personal continents of the Treefolk or Lizardmen, all the territories are still 3 spots away from one another, so the various continent parts will all still connect. Or is there some other part of the continents that is concerning you other than their remaining connected?


I see but here is what your proposed change does. It decreases the number of "adjacent to favored" territories for Lizardmen and Treefolk by 1 each from 13 to 12 and creates a territory that is doubled up on (S4 and M4). ;)

Image

I have a different proposal ... swapping F3 and J3 would keep the 13, make a fully connected continent for each player and grant the same distance to the 2nd favored territory that you were suggesting should be there for balance. :D

Image

It is a pain in the ass to make the change but it makes sense so I will need to make that update asap.

Thanks 8-)

=D13=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Let the XML Begin!

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:47 am

dolomite13 wrote:I have a different proposal ... swapping F3 and J3 would keep the 13, make a fully connected continent for each player and grant the same distance to the 2nd favored territory that you were suggesting should be there for balance. :D

Image

It is a pain in the ass to make the change but it makes sense so I will need to make that update asap.

Thanks 8-)

=D13=


I think that'll work well. I figured it would be a pain in the ass to fix it graphically at least, and I'm hoping we caught this before any, or at least too much, of the XML had been created since I'm sure that'll even be a bigger pain to fix. You're welcome for catching it, though I'm sorry for all the extra work it's caused and hope it doesn't set the release date of the map back too much.
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Let the XML Begin!

Postby dolomite13 on Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:44 am

I wrote about 1500 lines of xml thus far. Mostly just territories and borders, starting neutrals, starting positions, basic continents so it's not too hard to swap two territories. I hope to pass it off to Gilligan this weekend to do the hard part with the bonuses that are making my head spin.

=D13=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Let the XML Begin!

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:49 pm

dolomite13 wrote:I wrote about 1500 lines of xml thus far. Mostly just territories and borders, starting neutrals, starting positions, basic continents so it's not too hard to swap two territories. I hope to pass it off to Gilligan this weekend to do the hard part with the bonuses that are making my head spin.

=D13=


Yikes, 1500 lines sounds like a lot. Hopefully there was a fair bit of copy and pasting you were able to do for that. In any case, I'm glad it's minimal work to swap the territories and also that the XML is on it's way :)
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Gr & Gp UPDATE! (8/1)

Postby dolomite13 on Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:04 am

OK here are the new maps and a list of changes.

I would love for the Gameplay and Graphics foundry people to give this a once over.

=D13=

=============================================================================

Graphics
* swapped land type and name for territories J3 and F3 as per the above conversation for better balance

Gameplay
* changed Aquatic to "gain a +1 bonus for every 3 territories that are adjacent to a sea" and "may assault seas"
* changes seas to be KILLER 3 (start 3 neutral) and can assault adjacent territories.
* added adjacent to sea to the key with a note they cannot assault seas (aquatic overrides this)

Small
http://imageshack.com/a/img10/886/vjid.png
Image

Large
http://imageshack.com/a/img802/2204/y66s.png
Image
Last edited by dolomite13 on Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Gr & Gp UPDATE! (8/1)

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:04 am

dolomite13 wrote:OK here are the new maps and a list of changes.

I would love for the Gameplay and Graphics foundry people to give this a once over.

=D13=


At the risk of being shot and hung for being a pain in the butt, especially since I pointed out the balance issue in the first place... the colours for J3 and F3 should also be swapped. Everything else lines up and it's easy to tell which territories you're supposed to be going for. Visually people with the Lizardmen or Treefolk may end up going for the other's third favored territory instead of their own because of the current colour difference. I hope the change doesn't create a lot of extra work graphically :(

Looking at the two territories, I think the background etchings of forest/jungle are similar enough that just switchng the colour itself over should work well enough... I'm probably being overly optimistic and Photoshop noobish, but hopefully it's just a matter of eyedropping the dark green colour onto the J3 territory and the light green colour onto the F3 territory and a couple minutes of tweaks to fix any minor artifacting.

On a positive note, I really like the new aquatics bonus and think it will work out nicely. It allows for the potential of a large bonus of +8, but realistically will give a reasonable bonus while offering some nice tactical advantages of getting around stacks and being able to get across the map much quicker in trench games. I could be mistaken, but it also seems like it should require a little less work on the XML end of things, which is always a nice bonus :)

Overall great work, dolomite. I must say, this is one of the few maps I've really been looking forward to playing through its development. Not including Research and Conquer, which has been in development forever, I think the last map I've been looking this forward to playing was King's Court. I really see this map being one of the few maps that stands the test of time and still gets regular play a year after its release :)
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Gr & Gp UPDATE! (8/1)

Postby dolomite13 on Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:08 am

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:OK here are the new maps and a list of changes.

I would love for the Gameplay and Graphics foundry people to give this a once over.

=D13=


At the risk of being shot and hung for being a pain in the butt, especially since I pointed out the balance issue in the first place... the colours for J3 and F3 should also be swapped. Everything else lines up and it's easy to tell which territories you're supposed to be going for. Visually people with the Lizardmen or Treefolk may end up going for the other's third favored territory instead of their own because of the current colour difference. I hope the change doesn't create a lot of extra work graphically :(

Looking at the two territories, I think the background etchings of forest/jungle are similar enough that just switchng the colour itself over should work well enough... I'm probably being overly optimistic and Photoshop noobish, but hopefully it's just a matter of eyedropping the dark green colour onto the J3 territory and the light green colour onto the F3 territory and a couple minutes of tweaks to fix any minor artifacting.

On a positive note, I really like the new aquatics bonus and think it will work out nicely. It allows for the potential of a large bonus of +8, but realistically will give a reasonable bonus while offering some nice tactical advantages of getting around stacks and being able to get across the map much quicker in trench games. I could be mistaken, but it also seems like it should require a little less work on the XML end of things, which is always a nice bonus :)

Overall great work, dolomite. I must say, this is one of the few maps I've really been looking forward to playing through its development. Not including Research and Conquer, which has been in development forever, I think the last map I've been looking this forward to playing was King's Court. I really see this map being one of the few maps that stands the test of time and still gets regular play a year after its release :)


I linked the wrong map with the wrong territory names. They should be correct now. And I think that there are 22 territories around seas so that wuld be a max of +7 but with the ability to use seas to hop across them it seems balanced. We will need to see it in action I guess.

=D13=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Gr & Gp UPDATE! (8/1)

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:11 pm

dolomite13 wrote:I linked the wrong map with the wrong territory names. They should be correct now. And I think that there are 22 territories around seas so that wuld be a max of +7 but with the ability to use seas to hop across them it seems balanced. We will need to see it in action I guess.

=D13=


Good to hear it didn't cause any additional problems :) I only counted them around a couple of the seas and presumed they were the same around the other two, so my count was off. Still, +7 seems like a good potential bonus as well. And yeah, it's one of those things you need to see actually in beta play to know for sure.
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Let the XML Begin!

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:13 am

dolomite13 wrote:I wrote about 1500 lines of xml thus far. Mostly just territories and borders, starting neutrals, starting positions, basic continents so it's not too hard to swap two territories. I hope to pass it off to Gilligan this weekend to do the hard part with the bonuses that are making my head spin.

=D13=


Are you having difficulty figuring out how to create some of the bonuses using the XML? I've never written XML, but have reviewed some and have an understanding of code in general, so perhaps I can help figure it out if you are having difficulty? I tend to be pretty good with sorting out the logistics of code. If it will even help the process along.
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Let the XML Begin!

Postby dolomite13 on Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:29 am

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:I wrote about 1500 lines of xml thus far. Mostly just territories and borders, starting neutrals, starting positions, basic continents so it's not too hard to swap two territories. I hope to pass it off to Gilligan this weekend to do the hard part with the bonuses that are making my head spin.

=D13=


Are you having difficulty figuring out how to create some of the bonuses using the XML? I've never written XML, but have reviewed some and have an understanding of code in general, so perhaps I can help figure it out if you are having difficulty? I tend to be pretty good with sorting out the logistics of code. If it will even help the process along.


Gilligan is on board for the XML I just set up the basics with the territories, coordinates, reinforcements, requirements, and starting droops/neutrals to get things rolling. I'm not even going to attempt the complex xml that will be needed for the bonus structure on this one.

=D13=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Let the XML Begin!

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:16 am

dolomite13 wrote:
-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:I wrote about 1500 lines of xml thus far. Mostly just territories and borders, starting neutrals, starting positions, basic continents so it's not too hard to swap two territories. I hope to pass it off to Gilligan this weekend to do the hard part with the bonuses that are making my head spin.

=D13=


Are you having difficulty figuring out how to create some of the bonuses using the XML? I've never written XML, but have reviewed some and have an understanding of code in general, so perhaps I can help figure it out if you are having difficulty? I tend to be pretty good with sorting out the logistics of code. If it will even help the process along.


Gilligan is on board for the XML I just set up the basics with the territories, coordinates, reinforcements, requirements, and starting droops/neutrals to get things rolling. I'm not even going to attempt the complex xml that will be needed for the bonus structure on this one.

=D13=


I think if you've covered all of those parts of the XML, you'll have given Gilligan a nice head start. From what I understand the coordinates part can be a time consuming pain in the butt to deal with. Have you taken care of the bonuses (just bonuses, not extra features) for the different special abilities except for Barbarians and Fanatics? Since they're not starting race dependent, the others seem like they should just be straight forward collections and/or required tag bonuses with an auto-deploy for Demons. There's certainly some more complicated aspects of some of them with the conditional borders and other features, but the bonus end of them seem rather straight forward.
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Gr & Gp UPDATE! (8/1)

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:55 pm

dolomite13 wrote:Just a quick thought about game-play.

When someone uses the forbidden lands to take out your kingdom space (think of it as closing your portal back to your home kingdom) you will loose your favored territory and adjacent to favored bonuses. So you go from a potential of +19 if you held every basic land territory down to a potential +10 (as all basic lands are now "not adjacent to favored") and you will also lose your +3 autodeploy. By this point you are probably already in trouble but this could also happen via "nukes" and because you cannot retake a kingdom this will severely cripple you if it happens early. My second game-play concern is about forbidden lands and nukes taking out special features on the right side. It will be possible to lose your special feature(s) which amount to some tactics such as dwellers movement options and up to +8 bonuses.

Anyway ... I'm just rambling because I'm bored at work ... I don't plan to change how the map is currently designed unless it seems like losing your kingdom/feature to a nuke early on absolutely spells defeat. As the map moves into beta I would love to hear peoples thoughts about it.


We ran into similar concerns with Research and Conquer once we took nukes into account. Luckily we were able to figure out a work around, though it wasn't optimal, since there were multiple territories within the separated areas (in this case the research section). Unfortunately I don't think there's any way to figure out a work around for this map that won't damage the gameplay more than it will fix it. Sometimes you just can't accommodate all the different gameplay settings and most maps have their optimal settings and their bad settings. Nukes on this map clearly could mess with gameplay substantially, but that's part of the fun of nukes, they add a large variable to the game and can seriously mess with the outcome of a game. I'd be pretty annoyed if someone nuked my starting spot, but at the same time, I'd think it was great fun to nuke someone else's starting spot too.

I think the great thing with this map is that it just forces someone to focus on their special territory places instead or, if they lose a special territory space, to focus more on their personal continent bonus instead. Either way there'll still be options open to someone who loses a bonus type and it will change how the game plays out since they won't be going after the same territories they would have otherwise, which could be seen as a feature :)

Personally I say just keep it as it is. Really, anyone selecting nuclear spoils knows what they're getting themselves into, so I don't think you should need to adjust the gameplay for the map at all to minimize the impact.

As far as Forbidden Lands being able to take out special abilities, I think I mentioned that at some other point but I like the explanation you came up with. I'd like to see it stay the way it is for now and see how the gameplay works out through Beta. If it really distrupts the game, then it can always be changed. I think players could choose to place a few extra troops in their special ability areas if they want to minimize the risk of someone using Forbidden Lands to remove their special abilities.
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Gr & Gp UPDATE! (8/1)

Postby dolomite13 on Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:04 pm

Just a quick thought about game-play.

When someone uses the forbidden lands to take out your kingdom space (think of it as closing your portal back to your home kingdom) you will loose your favored territory and adjacent to favored bonuses. So you go from a potential of +19 if you held every basic land territory down to a potential +10 (as all basic lands are now "not adjacent to favored") and you will also lose your +3 autodeploy. By this point you are probably already in trouble but this could also happen via "nukes" and because you cannot retake a kingdom this will severely cripple you if it happens early. My second game-play concern is about forbidden lands and nukes taking out special features on the right side. It will be possible to lose your special feature(s) which amount to some tactics such as dwellers movement options and up to +8 bonuses.

Anyway ... I'm just rambling because I'm bored at work ... I don't plan to change how the map is currently designed unless it seems like losing your kingdom/feature to a nuke early on absolutely spells defeat. As the map moves into beta I would love to hear peoples thoughts about it.
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Gr & Gp UPDATE! (8/1)

Postby dolomite13 on Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:03 pm

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:Just a quick thought about game-play.

When someone uses the forbidden lands to take out your kingdom space (think of it as closing your portal back to your home kingdom) you will loose your favored territory and adjacent to favored bonuses. So you go from a potential of +19 if you held every basic land territory down to a potential +10 (as all basic lands are now "not adjacent to favored") and you will also lose your +3 autodeploy. By this point you are probably already in trouble but this could also happen via "nukes" and because you cannot retake a kingdom this will severely cripple you if it happens early. My second game-play concern is about forbidden lands and nukes taking out special features on the right side. It will be possible to lose your special feature(s) which amount to some tactics such as dwellers movement options and up to +8 bonuses.

Anyway ... I'm just rambling because I'm bored at work ... I don't plan to change how the map is currently designed unless it seems like losing your kingdom/feature to a nuke early on absolutely spells defeat. As the map moves into beta I would love to hear peoples thoughts about it.


We ran into similar concerns with Research and Conquer once we took nukes into account. Luckily we were able to figure out a work around, though it wasn't optimal, since there were multiple territories within the separated areas (in this case the research section). Unfortunately I don't think there's any way to figure out a work around for this map that won't damage the gameplay more than it will fix it. Sometimes you just can't accommodate all the different gameplay settings and most maps have their optimal settings and their bad settings. Nukes on this map clearly could mess with gameplay substantially, but that's part of the fun of nukes, they add a large variable to the game and can seriously mess with the outcome of a game. I'd be pretty annoyed if someone nuked my starting spot, but at the same time, I'd think it was great fun to nuke someone else's starting spot too.

I think the great thing with this map is that it just forces someone to focus on their special territory places instead or, if they lose a special territory space, to focus more on their personal continent bonus instead. Either way there'll still be options open to someone who loses a bonus type and it will change how the game plays out since they won't be going after the same territories they would have otherwise, which could be seen as a feature :)

Personally I say just keep it as it is. Really, anyone selecting nuclear spoils knows what they're getting themselves into, so I don't think you should need to adjust the gameplay for the map at all to minimize the impact.

As far as Forbidden Lands being able to take out special abilities, I think I mentioned that at some other point but I like the explanation you came up with. I'd like to see it stay the way it is for now and see how the gameplay works out through Beta. If it really distrupts the game, then it can always be changed. I think players could choose to place a few extra troops in their special ability areas if they want to minimize the risk of someone using Forbidden Lands to remove their special abilities.


Agreed 8-)

=D13=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Gr & Gp UPDATE! (8/1)

Postby EricPhail on Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:23 am

dolomite13 wrote:
-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:Just a quick thought about game-play.

When someone uses the forbidden lands to take out your kingdom space (think of it as closing your portal back to your home kingdom) you will loose your favored territory and adjacent to favored bonuses. So you go from a potential of +19 if you held every basic land territory down to a potential +10 (as all basic lands are now "not adjacent to favored") and you will also lose your +3 autodeploy. By this point you are probably already in trouble but this could also happen via "nukes" and because you cannot retake a kingdom this will severely cripple you if it happens early. My second game-play concern is about forbidden lands and nukes taking out special features on the right side. It will be possible to lose your special feature(s) which amount to some tactics such as dwellers movement options and up to +8 bonuses.

Anyway ... I'm just rambling because I'm bored at work ... I don't plan to change how the map is currently designed unless it seems like losing your kingdom/feature to a nuke early on absolutely spells defeat. As the map moves into beta I would love to hear peoples thoughts about it.


We ran into similar concerns with Research and Conquer once we took nukes into account. Luckily we were able to figure out a work around, though it wasn't optimal, since there were multiple territories within the separated areas (in this case the research section). Unfortunately I don't think there's any way to figure out a work around for this map that won't damage the gameplay more than it will fix it. Sometimes you just can't accommodate all the different gameplay settings and most maps have their optimal settings and their bad settings. Nukes on this map clearly could mess with gameplay substantially, but that's part of the fun of nukes, they add a large variable to the game and can seriously mess with the outcome of a game. I'd be pretty annoyed if someone nuked my starting spot, but at the same time, I'd think it was great fun to nuke someone else's starting spot too.

I think the great thing with this map is that it just forces someone to focus on their special territory places instead or, if they lose a special territory space, to focus more on their personal continent bonus instead. Either way there'll still be options open to someone who loses a bonus type and it will change how the game plays out since they won't be going after the same territories they would have otherwise, which could be seen as a feature :)

Personally I say just keep it as it is. Really, anyone selecting nuclear spoils knows what they're getting themselves into, so I don't think you should need to adjust the gameplay for the map at all to minimize the impact.

As far as Forbidden Lands being able to take out special abilities, I think I mentioned that at some other point but I like the explanation you came up with. I'd like to see it stay the way it is for now and see how the gameplay works out through Beta. If it really distrupts the game, then it can always be changed. I think players could choose to place a few extra troops in their special ability areas if they want to minimize the risk of someone using Forbidden Lands to remove their special abilities.


Agreed 8-)

=D13=


Could always try using conditional borders to allow you to take a kingdom from it's start territory ONLY if you hold no kingdom, if it worries you that much (bombardment from the forbidden lands still hurts due to one turn loss of bonus/need to recapture, but early nuke isn't death), special features are much more tricky on that front.

I'd leave that line of thought 'till beta myself, though.
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