[Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Proposed Changes (3/14/14)

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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Gr & Gp UPDATE! (8/1)

Postby dolomite13 on Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:08 am

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:OK here are the new maps and a list of changes.

I would love for the Gameplay and Graphics foundry people to give this a once over.

=D13=


At the risk of being shot and hung for being a pain in the butt, especially since I pointed out the balance issue in the first place... the colours for J3 and F3 should also be swapped. Everything else lines up and it's easy to tell which territories you're supposed to be going for. Visually people with the Lizardmen or Treefolk may end up going for the other's third favored territory instead of their own because of the current colour difference. I hope the change doesn't create a lot of extra work graphically :(

Looking at the two territories, I think the background etchings of forest/jungle are similar enough that just switchng the colour itself over should work well enough... I'm probably being overly optimistic and Photoshop noobish, but hopefully it's just a matter of eyedropping the dark green colour onto the J3 territory and the light green colour onto the F3 territory and a couple minutes of tweaks to fix any minor artifacting.

On a positive note, I really like the new aquatics bonus and think it will work out nicely. It allows for the potential of a large bonus of +8, but realistically will give a reasonable bonus while offering some nice tactical advantages of getting around stacks and being able to get across the map much quicker in trench games. I could be mistaken, but it also seems like it should require a little less work on the XML end of things, which is always a nice bonus :)

Overall great work, dolomite. I must say, this is one of the few maps I've really been looking forward to playing through its development. Not including Research and Conquer, which has been in development forever, I think the last map I've been looking this forward to playing was King's Court. I really see this map being one of the few maps that stands the test of time and still gets regular play a year after its release :)


I linked the wrong map with the wrong territory names. They should be correct now. And I think that there are 22 territories around seas so that wuld be a max of +7 but with the ability to use seas to hop across them it seems balanced. We will need to see it in action I guess.

=D13=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Gr & Gp UPDATE! (8/1)

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:11 pm

dolomite13 wrote:I linked the wrong map with the wrong territory names. They should be correct now. And I think that there are 22 territories around seas so that wuld be a max of +7 but with the ability to use seas to hop across them it seems balanced. We will need to see it in action I guess.

=D13=


Good to hear it didn't cause any additional problems :) I only counted them around a couple of the seas and presumed they were the same around the other two, so my count was off. Still, +7 seems like a good potential bonus as well. And yeah, it's one of those things you need to see actually in beta play to know for sure.
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Let the XML Begin!

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:13 am

dolomite13 wrote:I wrote about 1500 lines of xml thus far. Mostly just territories and borders, starting neutrals, starting positions, basic continents so it's not too hard to swap two territories. I hope to pass it off to Gilligan this weekend to do the hard part with the bonuses that are making my head spin.

=D13=


Are you having difficulty figuring out how to create some of the bonuses using the XML? I've never written XML, but have reviewed some and have an understanding of code in general, so perhaps I can help figure it out if you are having difficulty? I tend to be pretty good with sorting out the logistics of code. If it will even help the process along.
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Let the XML Begin!

Postby dolomite13 on Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:29 am

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:I wrote about 1500 lines of xml thus far. Mostly just territories and borders, starting neutrals, starting positions, basic continents so it's not too hard to swap two territories. I hope to pass it off to Gilligan this weekend to do the hard part with the bonuses that are making my head spin.

=D13=


Are you having difficulty figuring out how to create some of the bonuses using the XML? I've never written XML, but have reviewed some and have an understanding of code in general, so perhaps I can help figure it out if you are having difficulty? I tend to be pretty good with sorting out the logistics of code. If it will even help the process along.


Gilligan is on board for the XML I just set up the basics with the territories, coordinates, reinforcements, requirements, and starting droops/neutrals to get things rolling. I'm not even going to attempt the complex xml that will be needed for the bonus structure on this one.

=D13=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Let the XML Begin!

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:16 am

dolomite13 wrote:
-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:I wrote about 1500 lines of xml thus far. Mostly just territories and borders, starting neutrals, starting positions, basic continents so it's not too hard to swap two territories. I hope to pass it off to Gilligan this weekend to do the hard part with the bonuses that are making my head spin.

=D13=


Are you having difficulty figuring out how to create some of the bonuses using the XML? I've never written XML, but have reviewed some and have an understanding of code in general, so perhaps I can help figure it out if you are having difficulty? I tend to be pretty good with sorting out the logistics of code. If it will even help the process along.


Gilligan is on board for the XML I just set up the basics with the territories, coordinates, reinforcements, requirements, and starting droops/neutrals to get things rolling. I'm not even going to attempt the complex xml that will be needed for the bonus structure on this one.

=D13=


I think if you've covered all of those parts of the XML, you'll have given Gilligan a nice head start. From what I understand the coordinates part can be a time consuming pain in the butt to deal with. Have you taken care of the bonuses (just bonuses, not extra features) for the different special abilities except for Barbarians and Fanatics? Since they're not starting race dependent, the others seem like they should just be straight forward collections and/or required tag bonuses with an auto-deploy for Demons. There's certainly some more complicated aspects of some of them with the conditional borders and other features, but the bonus end of them seem rather straight forward.
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Gr & Gp UPDATE! (8/1)

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:55 pm

dolomite13 wrote:Just a quick thought about game-play.

When someone uses the forbidden lands to take out your kingdom space (think of it as closing your portal back to your home kingdom) you will loose your favored territory and adjacent to favored bonuses. So you go from a potential of +19 if you held every basic land territory down to a potential +10 (as all basic lands are now "not adjacent to favored") and you will also lose your +3 autodeploy. By this point you are probably already in trouble but this could also happen via "nukes" and because you cannot retake a kingdom this will severely cripple you if it happens early. My second game-play concern is about forbidden lands and nukes taking out special features on the right side. It will be possible to lose your special feature(s) which amount to some tactics such as dwellers movement options and up to +8 bonuses.

Anyway ... I'm just rambling because I'm bored at work ... I don't plan to change how the map is currently designed unless it seems like losing your kingdom/feature to a nuke early on absolutely spells defeat. As the map moves into beta I would love to hear peoples thoughts about it.


We ran into similar concerns with Research and Conquer once we took nukes into account. Luckily we were able to figure out a work around, though it wasn't optimal, since there were multiple territories within the separated areas (in this case the research section). Unfortunately I don't think there's any way to figure out a work around for this map that won't damage the gameplay more than it will fix it. Sometimes you just can't accommodate all the different gameplay settings and most maps have their optimal settings and their bad settings. Nukes on this map clearly could mess with gameplay substantially, but that's part of the fun of nukes, they add a large variable to the game and can seriously mess with the outcome of a game. I'd be pretty annoyed if someone nuked my starting spot, but at the same time, I'd think it was great fun to nuke someone else's starting spot too.

I think the great thing with this map is that it just forces someone to focus on their special territory places instead or, if they lose a special territory space, to focus more on their personal continent bonus instead. Either way there'll still be options open to someone who loses a bonus type and it will change how the game plays out since they won't be going after the same territories they would have otherwise, which could be seen as a feature :)

Personally I say just keep it as it is. Really, anyone selecting nuclear spoils knows what they're getting themselves into, so I don't think you should need to adjust the gameplay for the map at all to minimize the impact.

As far as Forbidden Lands being able to take out special abilities, I think I mentioned that at some other point but I like the explanation you came up with. I'd like to see it stay the way it is for now and see how the gameplay works out through Beta. If it really distrupts the game, then it can always be changed. I think players could choose to place a few extra troops in their special ability areas if they want to minimize the risk of someone using Forbidden Lands to remove their special abilities.
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Gr & Gp UPDATE! (8/1)

Postby dolomite13 on Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:04 pm

Just a quick thought about game-play.

When someone uses the forbidden lands to take out your kingdom space (think of it as closing your portal back to your home kingdom) you will loose your favored territory and adjacent to favored bonuses. So you go from a potential of +19 if you held every basic land territory down to a potential +10 (as all basic lands are now "not adjacent to favored") and you will also lose your +3 autodeploy. By this point you are probably already in trouble but this could also happen via "nukes" and because you cannot retake a kingdom this will severely cripple you if it happens early. My second game-play concern is about forbidden lands and nukes taking out special features on the right side. It will be possible to lose your special feature(s) which amount to some tactics such as dwellers movement options and up to +8 bonuses.

Anyway ... I'm just rambling because I'm bored at work ... I don't plan to change how the map is currently designed unless it seems like losing your kingdom/feature to a nuke early on absolutely spells defeat. As the map moves into beta I would love to hear peoples thoughts about it.
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Gr & Gp UPDATE! (8/1)

Postby dolomite13 on Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:03 pm

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:Just a quick thought about game-play.

When someone uses the forbidden lands to take out your kingdom space (think of it as closing your portal back to your home kingdom) you will loose your favored territory and adjacent to favored bonuses. So you go from a potential of +19 if you held every basic land territory down to a potential +10 (as all basic lands are now "not adjacent to favored") and you will also lose your +3 autodeploy. By this point you are probably already in trouble but this could also happen via "nukes" and because you cannot retake a kingdom this will severely cripple you if it happens early. My second game-play concern is about forbidden lands and nukes taking out special features on the right side. It will be possible to lose your special feature(s) which amount to some tactics such as dwellers movement options and up to +8 bonuses.

Anyway ... I'm just rambling because I'm bored at work ... I don't plan to change how the map is currently designed unless it seems like losing your kingdom/feature to a nuke early on absolutely spells defeat. As the map moves into beta I would love to hear peoples thoughts about it.


We ran into similar concerns with Research and Conquer once we took nukes into account. Luckily we were able to figure out a work around, though it wasn't optimal, since there were multiple territories within the separated areas (in this case the research section). Unfortunately I don't think there's any way to figure out a work around for this map that won't damage the gameplay more than it will fix it. Sometimes you just can't accommodate all the different gameplay settings and most maps have their optimal settings and their bad settings. Nukes on this map clearly could mess with gameplay substantially, but that's part of the fun of nukes, they add a large variable to the game and can seriously mess with the outcome of a game. I'd be pretty annoyed if someone nuked my starting spot, but at the same time, I'd think it was great fun to nuke someone else's starting spot too.

I think the great thing with this map is that it just forces someone to focus on their special territory places instead or, if they lose a special territory space, to focus more on their personal continent bonus instead. Either way there'll still be options open to someone who loses a bonus type and it will change how the game plays out since they won't be going after the same territories they would have otherwise, which could be seen as a feature :)

Personally I say just keep it as it is. Really, anyone selecting nuclear spoils knows what they're getting themselves into, so I don't think you should need to adjust the gameplay for the map at all to minimize the impact.

As far as Forbidden Lands being able to take out special abilities, I think I mentioned that at some other point but I like the explanation you came up with. I'd like to see it stay the way it is for now and see how the gameplay works out through Beta. If it really distrupts the game, then it can always be changed. I think players could choose to place a few extra troops in their special ability areas if they want to minimize the risk of someone using Forbidden Lands to remove their special abilities.


Agreed 8-)

=D13=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Gr & Gp UPDATE! (8/1)

Postby EricPhail on Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:23 am

dolomite13 wrote:
-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:Just a quick thought about game-play.

When someone uses the forbidden lands to take out your kingdom space (think of it as closing your portal back to your home kingdom) you will loose your favored territory and adjacent to favored bonuses. So you go from a potential of +19 if you held every basic land territory down to a potential +10 (as all basic lands are now "not adjacent to favored") and you will also lose your +3 autodeploy. By this point you are probably already in trouble but this could also happen via "nukes" and because you cannot retake a kingdom this will severely cripple you if it happens early. My second game-play concern is about forbidden lands and nukes taking out special features on the right side. It will be possible to lose your special feature(s) which amount to some tactics such as dwellers movement options and up to +8 bonuses.

Anyway ... I'm just rambling because I'm bored at work ... I don't plan to change how the map is currently designed unless it seems like losing your kingdom/feature to a nuke early on absolutely spells defeat. As the map moves into beta I would love to hear peoples thoughts about it.


We ran into similar concerns with Research and Conquer once we took nukes into account. Luckily we were able to figure out a work around, though it wasn't optimal, since there were multiple territories within the separated areas (in this case the research section). Unfortunately I don't think there's any way to figure out a work around for this map that won't damage the gameplay more than it will fix it. Sometimes you just can't accommodate all the different gameplay settings and most maps have their optimal settings and their bad settings. Nukes on this map clearly could mess with gameplay substantially, but that's part of the fun of nukes, they add a large variable to the game and can seriously mess with the outcome of a game. I'd be pretty annoyed if someone nuked my starting spot, but at the same time, I'd think it was great fun to nuke someone else's starting spot too.

I think the great thing with this map is that it just forces someone to focus on their special territory places instead or, if they lose a special territory space, to focus more on their personal continent bonus instead. Either way there'll still be options open to someone who loses a bonus type and it will change how the game plays out since they won't be going after the same territories they would have otherwise, which could be seen as a feature :)

Personally I say just keep it as it is. Really, anyone selecting nuclear spoils knows what they're getting themselves into, so I don't think you should need to adjust the gameplay for the map at all to minimize the impact.

As far as Forbidden Lands being able to take out special abilities, I think I mentioned that at some other point but I like the explanation you came up with. I'd like to see it stay the way it is for now and see how the gameplay works out through Beta. If it really distrupts the game, then it can always be changed. I think players could choose to place a few extra troops in their special ability areas if they want to minimize the risk of someone using Forbidden Lands to remove their special abilities.


Agreed 8-)

=D13=


Could always try using conditional borders to allow you to take a kingdom from it's start territory ONLY if you hold no kingdom, if it worries you that much (bombardment from the forbidden lands still hurts due to one turn loss of bonus/need to recapture, but early nuke isn't death), special features are much more tricky on that front.

I'd leave that line of thought 'till beta myself, though.
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - Gr & Gp UPDATE! (8/1)

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:29 am

EricPhail wrote:Could always try using conditional borders to allow you to take a kingdom from it's start territory ONLY if you hold no kingdom, if it worries you that much (bombardment from the forbidden lands still hurts due to one turn loss of bonus/need to recapture, but early nuke isn't death), special features are much more tricky on that front.


I considered this however lets say you were the Gnomes and you lost your kingdom to a nuke or the forbidden lands bombardment and lets say you had conquered V1. You could then assault the Dragonkin kingdom which would in effect make you the Dragonkin. Which is just plain weird. I know the map is a fantasy based map with magic that can whipe out the racial features of your kingdom altogether but becoming another race and supplanting them entirely seems going a bit far. I think I would rather just live with nukes being something that hurts a map like this and continue to champion adding a way to select certain territories that either do not get a card or can be set as immune from nukes/bombards.

=D13=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - XML Now in Development (8/5)

Postby EricPhail on Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:59 pm

Yeah, saw that issue but... mentioned it anyway in case it hadn't been brought up
tbh, I agree on just pushing for spoil exempt locations
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - XML Now in Development (8/5)

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:04 pm

EricPhail wrote:Yeah, saw that issue but... mentioned it anyway in case it hadn't been brought up
tbh, I agree on just pushing for spoil exempt locations


I think spoil exempt (or at least nuke exempt) locations would be ideal, but it is a XML update and frankly I have little hope of this update being implemented within the next few years, since there's still plenty XML updates which would be a lot easier to code (as in shouldn't take more than an hour or two each for at least two of them, and that's being really generous) that have been sitting on the suggestion list for around 6 years and are generally more sought after than spoil exemptions.
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - XML Now in Development (8/5)

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:12 pm

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:
EricPhail wrote:Yeah, saw that issue but... mentioned it anyway in case it hadn't been brought up
tbh, I agree on just pushing for spoil exempt locations


I think spoil exempt (or at least nuke exempt) locations would be ideal, but it is a XML update and frankly I have little hope of this update being implemented within the next few years, since there's still plenty XML updates which would be a lot easier to code (as in shouldn't take more than an hour or two each for at least two of them, and that's being really generous) that have been sitting on the suggestion list for around 6 years and are generally more sought after than spoil exemptions.


Makes me wish I was a PHP coder instead of a Javascript(Jquery)/Html(4/5)/CSS(2/3)/ASP.net/XML/XSLT/UI/UX designer-developer guy ;)

=D13=
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms - XML Now in Development (8/5)

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:25 pm

dolomite13 wrote:
-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:
EricPhail wrote:Yeah, saw that issue but... mentioned it anyway in case it hadn't been brought up
tbh, I agree on just pushing for spoil exempt locations


I think spoil exempt (or at least nuke exempt) locations would be ideal, but it is a XML update and frankly I have little hope of this update being implemented within the next few years, since there's still plenty XML updates which would be a lot easier to code (as in shouldn't take more than an hour or two each for at least two of them, and that's being really generous) that have been sitting on the suggestion list for around 6 years and are generally more sought after than spoil exemptions.


Makes me wish I was a PHP coder instead of a Javascript(Jquery)/Html(4/5)/CSS(2/3)/ASP.net/XML/XSLT/UI/UX designer-developer guy ;)

=D13=


If you know all of those languages, the code for Decay to Neutral at the very least would be easy for you to take care of. Really, all it should be is the same code as autodeploy only with an added bit to change the player to neutral if it hits 0 or less. Guess we'll just have to wait for them to decide to put the minor amount of time into it and other like updates... hopefully the new site owners will put it at a higher priority than Lack had it at.
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