[Vacation valid until Aug. 2014] Ziggurat

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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [2013/03/09] V7 P5

Postby BGtheBrain on Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:24 am

I dont know what % of people like the huge maps, but I know it discourages some players if a map is too large. I thnk the current size is great.

I like maps with objectives, would there be any way to tie an objective to this map as well? Perhaps E01 like the St Pats Map has the pot o gold?
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [2013/03/09] V7 P5

Postby jonofperu on Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:55 pm

Thanks for the reminder, Koontz. I've been working on an update, but I'm having some trouble with Photoshop. I may have to flatten some layers since I have thousands now and I think the file is too large. If I try to move the legend or some other group for example, it hangs up processing for a couple minutes before it completes the move...
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [2013/03/09] V7 P5

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:29 pm

Never flatten layers if you have to. Send isaiah40 or thenobodies80 a quick PM with your problem. They both use PS and might be able to help you.
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [2013/03/09] V7 P5

Postby isaiah40 on Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:28 pm

jonofperu wrote:Thanks for the reminder, Koontz. I've been working on an update, but I'm having some trouble with Photoshop. I may have to flatten some layers since I have thousands now and I think the file is too large. If I try to move the legend or some other group for example, it hangs up processing for a couple minutes before it completes the move...

Yea I've had this happen a few times. Just work through it, be patient and DON'T try to do anything else while it's attempting to move everything. Leave all the layers as they are because you might have to go back and edit those flattened layers later.
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [2013/03/09] V7 P5

Postby jonofperu on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:25 pm

Well I'm thinking of flattening some groups in a working file and keeping them in a backup so I can access those layers and import them if I need to. Not exactly sure how easily that's done though. But I'm definitely not going to eliminate layers by flattening unless I can find a way to preserve them. Thing is, if there were a way to easily import/export groups of layers I could reduce the filesize significantly and make the thing usable again.
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [2013/03/09] V7 P5

Postby isaiah40 on Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:41 pm

jonofperu wrote:Well I'm thinking of flattening some groups in a working file and keeping them in a backup so I can access those layers and import them if I need to. Not exactly sure how easily that's done though. But I'm definitely not going to eliminate layers by flattening unless I can find a way to preserve them. Thing is, if there were a way to easily import/export groups of layers I could reduce the filesize significantly and make the thing usable again.

If you want to flatten or merge layers, but have a backup, all you have to do is create a new file with the same size, select the layers you want to backup, and then drag them over onto the new canvas (it's a good idea to have both canvases visible) and viola, you have the layers backed up after you save the new file of course. You can then flatten or merge the layers in your working file. Though if you do this be prepared to do extra work in the long run. One thing you can do is to make sure you don't have any other programs running, that will help when working with PS.
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [2013/03/09] V7 P5

Postby jonofperu on Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:36 pm

Could this map please be placed on vacation for 15-30 days. I'm in an event and there's no way I'm going to get it figured out for an update before that.
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Re: Ziggurat (high ground) [2013/03/09] V7 P5

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:05 pm

[Moved]

At the request of the mapmaker, this map has been placed on vacation for a period of 6 months. After the 6 months the map will be considered Abandoned. If the mapmaker wants to continue with the map, then one of the Cartographer Assistants will be able to help put the thread back into the Foundry system, after an update has been made. ;-)

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Re: Ziggurat [18/Sep/2013] v9 (p6)

Postby jonofperu on Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:03 am

UPDATE!
Click image to enlarge.
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In this update:
Applied shadows
Added blood to the altar
Updated the legend per Koontz's suggestions.
- Eliminated standard deploy explanation
- Changed bombardment description
- Eliminated dividers between the last 3 sections

To do:
The biggest thing left IMO is to draw the camps. I'm kinda stumped here. Can anyone draw a fire pit? Not sure what ancient Inka-Aztec tents would look like other than a "pavilion" roof on poles, but something like that would be a nice addition. Only I'm reluctant to draw something else that would have to be three-dimensional. The next step is to draw the stone pathways to each camp. That I can handle. :-)
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Re: Ziggurat [18/Sep/2013] v9 (p6)

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:23 pm

Good to see you back in action. Will give you another going over when I have dealt with a couple of other maps.
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Re: Ziggurat [18/Sep/2013] v9 (p6)

Postby iancanton on Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:08 pm

the corners ought to start with n2 neutrals instead of n5. unlike on many other maps, the corners here are disadvantaged because they are the only places that can be attacked by two auto-deploys, while the other locations have more opportunity to climb the pyramid. alternatively, perhaps use 12 starting locations instead of 16.

ian. :)
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Re: Ziggurat [18/Sep/2013] v9 (p6)

Postby jonofperu on Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:18 pm

Great observation, ian. I hadn't thought about it that way. I was thinking the corners were easier to take since you can attack them from two sides and therefore they should have more neutrals to make them harder to take... BUT as you point out they are just has hard to defend and that's probably enough of a balance. Not sure what you mean by the other spots having more opportunity to climb, unless it's that it's harder to get through the corner and start working on the spots with stairs to the next level.

Anyone else think the corners should be a 2 or 3?
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Re: Ziggurat [18/Sep/2013] v9 (p6)

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:58 am

iancanton wrote:the corners ought to start with n2 neutrals instead of n5.

jonofperu wrote:Anyone else think the corners should be a 2 or 3?

If ian says it, take it as a must have. ;)
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Re: Ziggurat [18/Sep/2013] v9 (p6)

Postby Beko the Great on Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:43 am

This map has interesting concepts but you have to work a lot on the artwork, add it a lot of summerian style, to create the ambient like you're really Ancient Sumeria ;)

Here's something to inspire you:
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Re: Ziggurat [18/Sep/2013] v9 (p6)

Postby jonofperu on Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:24 pm

LOL, thanks. But I'm thinking Ancient Americas, hence the stonework and legend border.
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Re: Ziggurat [18/Sep/2013] v9 (p6)

Postby Beko the Great on Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:49 am

jonofperu wrote:LOL, thanks. But I'm thinking Ancient Americas, hence the stonework and legend border.


Ah ok! That way it looks cool then :)

But then you will have to change the name of the map because Ziggurat is a name specific for mesopotamian pyramid-like structures:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziggurat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Step_pyramid

:geek:
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Re: Ziggurat [18/Sep/2013] v9 (p6)

Postby jonofperu on Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:36 pm

The first thing I think of when I hear "ziggurat" is the Sumerian version... and apparently it does technically refer to that particular kind of stepped pyramid.
However, I like the name Ziggurat much more than "pyramid" or anything else. What makes a ziggurat? If it's primary characteristic is architectural (i.e. it is a stepped pyramid) then I should be able to use the name. Which is what I was thinking... However, if the term is technically tied to geography, then maybe I can't.

I've combined elements of ancient American archetecture: the stepped pyramid of the Myans and Aztecs (& others) with the stonework of the Incas. I linked some pictures here:

jonofperu wrote:Here are some images that inspired the design of the map:

The "altar" is patterned after the Intihuatana stone at Machu Picchu - not actually an altar, but I chose it for the distinctive, recognizable shape. (And I cound draw it to accommodate troop numbers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machu_Picchu#Intihuatana_stone
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The fortress itself is very reminiscent of the Inca fortress of Sacsayhuaman.
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Where I also found inspiration for the stairs between levels, stonework, etc.
Image

And the stones-sticking-out steps up to the summit are another distinctive Inca feature:
Image


Sacsayhuaman is a major inspiration in the design (including the stairways going up between levels), but wasn't a pyramid. It had a long, three-tiered battlement along one side of the hill it was built on.
Sacsayhuaman is my second choice for a name, but then the complaint would be that it isn't actually Sacsayhuaman. It's Sacsayhuaman as a ziggurat.

Furthermore, my design is more like the Sumerian ziggurat than the pyramids of the Aztecs and Mayas in the width of the levels. Ziggurats had gardens and things on wide levels, while if you've ever climbed one of those Mayan pyramids, it feels like a false step will send you tumbling all the way to the bottom.

So this isn't historical art, but pseudo-history. Kind of "Indiana Jones"-ish?
In that context can I borrow the Ziggurat name and throw Sumeria in along with the other ancient step pyramid-building cultures? That's what I'm proposing anyway. ;) (I suppose "American Ziggurat" would be the technically correct term, but who wants to use that?! :lol: )
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Re: Ziggurat [18/Sep/2013] v9 (p6)

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:00 am

jono, some things from me.
Levels A and B seem to be fine but you need to show the reduced neutrals in the OP and current version.

Level C causes concern. C1, 5, 9 & 13 are all you need to control the whole of the top of the map. If you hold those 4, not only can you stop players moving up by blocking 8 of the 12 steps coming up from B, you can attack anyone who wants to go up to level C. A huge advantage in trench games with the auto deploys. What I would suggest is you take the 5 neutrals you removed from level B corners and put them onto level C corners. This will make players move round to the centre of the map more and go up the steps at B4, 10, 16 & 22. Also it will negate some of the advantage of the corners as well.

Also do the same for level D. Make the corners a N4 and the ones in the middle a N1. Harder to get up making players fight on the map (less of a dice race map then) but would also allow some fighting at the top.
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Re: Ziggurat [18/Sep/2013] v9 (p6)

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:34 am

I think it's a novel game concept, but what I like best about this map is, that relative to other maps of the same complexity and size it has one of the most clearly readable legends.
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Re: Ziggurat [18/Sep/2013] v9 (p6)

Postby jonofperu on Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:26 pm

Thanks Dukasaur!
@Koontz - Interesting ideas. To what extent does the bombardment ability of the camps cancel the advantage of holding a corner? That's part of the reason I'm inclined to reduce the neutrals on the B corners... I realized it's not necessary to increase corner neutrals since corners are harder to hold anyway. Also we must consider the primary principle of the map - high ground advantage. It should be an advantage to hold corners on high ground. (I'm tempted to use the "functioning as intended" response you always hear from tech support! LOL)
Also, how likely is it that someone will manage to control all 4 corners on C? That's a lot of neutrals to conquer while being bombarded by starting spots. Of course it IS a lot of power and if they get that far they've probably got the game in the bag anyway.
I'll have to think about this some more and come up with an update probably reducing neutrals at least on the B corners to 2.
IMO the biggest advantage and the primary objective will be in reaching D. At that point you are out of range of the camps' bombardment and have basically created a new base with +3 auto-deploy and a huge bombardment range.
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Re: Ziggurat [18/Sep/2013] v9 (p6)

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:37 pm

jonofperu wrote:Also, how likely is it that someone will manage to control all 4 corners on C?

Very easily in a quads game, trips would also be pretty easy, doubles with good dice could be done, so lets say a third of games, singles, large games never, 1v1 and small games, I would say pretty rare like you. So to include the game play from team games, this would need to be included in discussion.
jonofperu wrote:Of course it IS a lot of power and if they get that far they've probably got the game in the bag anyway.

I would agree in no spoils and flat rate games, but escalating games, it would be pretty easy at that stage to break through some troops to hit the top.
jonofperu wrote:IMO the biggest advantage and the primary objective will be in reaching D. At that point you are out of range of the camps' bombardment and have basically created a new base with +3 auto-deploy and a huge bombardment range.

This is why I suggested the things I did. Getting to the top quickest will be the only real strategy on the map. Try to find a way to force players to stay on the map and fight more will be crucial.
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Re: Ziggurat [18/Sep/2013] v9 (p6)

Postby t4mcr53s2 on Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:10 pm

cool design .. looks inviting ... interesting points being made about gameplay
contact chapcrap icepack or rcfritz if time near an hour please
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Re: Ziggurat [18/Sep/2013] v9 (p6)

Postby generalhead on Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:28 pm

I haven't checked in on this in a while; Coming along nicely
I was hoping to see more detail at the bottom of the pyramid; It looks a little bland.
I liked something like the river with the bridge idea that you had posted on the second page. I don't know how it would look ]
having the water all the way around the pyramid, but going along one side might even be neat. Just my thoughts.
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Re: Ziggurat [18/Sep/2013] v9 (p6)

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:54 pm

[Moved]

It would appear that development of this map has stalled. The map is moved to the Recycling Box and put into Vacation status for the next 6 months. If the mapmaker wants to continue with the map, then one of the Cartographer Assistants will be able to help put the thread back into the Foundry system, after an update has been made. ;-)
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Re: [Vacation - Valid till April 2014] Ziggurat

Postby jonofperu on Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:42 pm

Been traveling. Didn't realize it had been a month. Have some updates in the works though, so will update soon.
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