[Vaction valid until August 2014] Stronghold

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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby Aleena on Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:01 pm

Looks good to me...
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby jonofperu on Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:51 am

Grats again, ManB!
I like this map. I think the graphics helped win the competition so maybe the colors, etc don't need to be changed too much.

Personally I think mountains make more sense than forests as impassables. (If there are some trees between my army and yours that doesn't really stop me...) So I would go back to mountains. Maybe make them more grey/rocky (even snow-capped)?

I like the idea of connected rebels so they don't become three separate isolated troop-collecting dead-ends. Whether or not a person gets stuck on one as his last territ, they become pretty useless if they just sit there with this growing pile of troops that can't do anything but bomb adjacent. (Once an army started building there everyone would just avoid getting close. Come to think of it that's an interesting feature - to create a kind of "bomb" everyone has to avoid... but I don't think it works for the map because attention is focused away from the rebels on the stronghold.) I would really like to see them attack out somewhere... the question is where. How to preserve a kind of unique function for them? Maybe the rebels attack the 3 armies in front of the stronghold? Or even better, what if the rebels attack as normal all territories around them, but bombard the 3 armies? That's a great way to break into the neutral-guarded armies. You still have to coordinate an attack since you need ground troops to actually assault the armies. It's also fits the theme/concept that the rebels would harry the armies - bombardment. And the rebels become very strategic spots because the auto-deploy can be forted. If they also attack or bomb each other its a really dynamic feature. I think you need to at least give them the utility of archers on King's Court - where they attack other archers and eventually bomb something useful. You still have to think twice about taking them, but they have a function. However, I would really like to see something more dynamic as suggested.

Perhaps my biggest issue with the map is I don't see a high fantasy connection. Again, it's a great map, but it feels like an adventure map that could happen in Sherwood (as mentioned in the other post), or Kosovo, or New York, or anywhere. What's "fantasy" about it? Names? Do cosmetics or naming make a map high fantasy? I don't think we could paint over the Classic map and change Europe to Mordor and Berlin to Mount Doom or something and now it's fantasy. There is no essential fantasy element in this map.
When I start trying to think of how the map could be transformed into more of a "high fantasy" map I end up drawing from my own map (a very poor submission which was very unfinished :lol: ). So I apologize in advance, but this is how I approached fantasy.
You could have magic wielders or "centers of power" instead of rebels. These centers of power somehow connect to each other and either attack the stronghold or affect the armies in some way. Maybe gaining control of the stronghold grants a special advantage/ability. There's the classic "once you conquer the stronghold you can attack/bomb everything." Or maybe to emphasize the fantasy theme again - from the stronghold you can attack the centers of power (rebels).
The focus of the map would then be on these really dynamic fantasy-themed powerful hubs. Of course you would really have to wrestle with balance - but if there are multiple connected points maybe that's mitigated.
The biggest problem with these suggestions that comes to my mind right away is the complexity. Is there a way to implement any of this without becoming too complex? Connections across the map, etc aren't immediately apparent and mean the map requires some study to understand - which you wanted to avoid (in your 1 min random speed game scenario).
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby jonofperu on Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:08 am

For a name I like Stronghold... or maybe Bastion of Power if that's not too corny LOL.
It's a mountain keep... fortress...
something unconquerable... impregnable...
There's another gameplay idea, but maybe too radical: you have to conquer several points and bring them together to breach the walls of the impregnable fortress... :roll:
It's unassailable, invulnerable... there's a name here somewhere! :D
Maybe just stick with Stronghold.
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby Aleena on Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:44 am

I like the name Stronghold as well...

As far as fantasy goes...
If you did not know the stories/ did not read the books / did not see the movies - and you've been given a small map of one section of the stories such as the city of Brea, Mordor, Mount Doom, ect... What you would see is not fantasy - but a map or a town, or just an area or mountain - you would not see anything FANTASY about it for the fantasy is the story and the people - and when a good fantasy is written - it takes place in lands that are similar to lands that people can relate to - like historical designed castles and towers, wooden outposts with fire signals - mountain passes and impassable overgrown jungle foliage - - - Before all the stories and movies even the names like Mordor is not a fantasy name - it is a made up name that has no relevance until someone finally connects it to a story or a battle...

example of so called fantasy (or not) maps from stated examples:
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Click image to enlarge.
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So as far as fantasy goes I can see a fantasy story growing out of this map - one just needs to open their minds to receive it.
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby Aleena on Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:45 am

Also I like the idea of the connecting Rebels - wait I think it was my idea... :)
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby jonofperu on Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:04 am

Good points Aleena.

Maybe I just have a different take on what makes a map "high fantasy". I tried going back through the original post, but couldn't find the specific discussion about this (that post needs an index or something LOL). I do remember that there are a lot of similar categories (Harry Potter as based in the real world - whatever that category was) and high fantasy won as an option distinct from those. So I think the map should have something essentially high fantasy about it, not just being an imaginary scenario rather than a real one.

You're right, take a map out of Lord of the Rings and it's just a map. So then how does one make "just a map" fit a fantasy genre?
Graphics: you could have fantasy-sounding names (not related to any particular book/movie); use/draw elves, dwarves, dragons, or other fantastic characters.
Story: this is complicated, because there's not much room to write up a story on a CC map. The story would have to be immediately evident in the image presented. Which comes back to graphics. You have to see something "epic" and/or "fantastical", not just adventurous. If it's immediately evident that imaginary creatures are facing off in a scenario that may or may not resemble our world, then I think it's fantasy. Or you could have humans with fantastic powers - magic. I'm not sure that making the scope "epic" by saying the armies facing off have millions of soldiers (for example) would make it high fantasy.
Function/features: I imagine this depends entirely on story. If a magical ability lets you attack something you couldn't attack as a "normal" person/territ then it fits the genre really well.

Or maybe I'm completely off on this and the map can be made as is. As I said... I like it! So I can just shut up... :D
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby Aleena on Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:04 am

Not sure what the difference between .. High Fantasy and just Fantasy...

I also like this map...
I feel the cross swords and shields give it a touch of fantasy - for now a days people do not fight with swords and shields...
Can not make out the image on the rebel's shields but it looks a little fantasy like to me...
Also the mystical or magical symbols in the water on the bottom left, also adds a little bit to the fantasy feel...

But over all - the general mood of the map from it's gloomy color scheme to the magical bluish glow of the Stronghold itself gives a contrast in such a way that makes one feel that the Stronghold is mystical powerful place..

I like this map... And I think it fits the theme...
I also like the Rebel camps connected though (magical or hidden pathways) with 3 or 4 bombardment points instead of one. This makes the Rebel camps more dynamic and less of a trap on the map.
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby dolomite13 on Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:30 pm

This is from a blog that I think sum's up high fantasy rather well.

=================================================================================

Wikipedia defines ‘high fantasy’ as being fantasy set in imaginary worlds, and ‘low fantasy’ as fantasy set in the real world (or ‘a rational and familiar fictional world’) with fantasy elements. I think this definition is misleading. A story isn’t high or low fantasy based on whether it’s set in an imaginary world; low fantasy is an attitude.

If high fantasy is The Lord of the Rings, low fantasy is Conan. High fantasy is ‘shiny’ and over-the-top and often though not always optimistic; low fantasy is about low tech settings where life is short. Larry Elmore is high fantasy; Erol Otus and John Blanche are low fantasy. Monty Python and Terry Gilliam’s Medieval stories are low fantasy, with their emphasis on mud and blood and grass and grime.

If you look at trends in MMOs over the last 12 years, they’re basically a progression to higher and higher fantasy. Ultima Online, the first major commercial MMO back in 1998, had all the visual flair of a bunch of Renaissance Faire people running around in the woods of Michigan (it didn’t even have nonhuman races!), but Everquest, which overtook it in popularity, had more dragons and orcs and stuff, and in World of Warcraft, fantasy is almost indistinguishable from superheroes.

There are still some popular fantasy franchises which are more low-fantasy than high, like the “Song of Ice and Fire” series (an important character being murdered in the privy is definitely low-fantasy). But would anyone play a lengthy RPG or spend days in a virtual world if it put them at a *worse* situation than in real life—grubbing for roots, patching worn clothes, suffering leprosy and fighting off continual hordes of goblins?

==================================================================================

In the end it is the feel that the map give you, conveyed by it's imagery and any story elements described on that map that will help to elevate it to that of high fantasy. Is the current map "high fantasy"? That is debatable and everyone will surely have their own opinion. My opinion is that it is not but it is surely a good foundation to build upon.

As for the name. Stick with Stronghold however consider a subtitle like "Stronghold: Struggle for the Blood Throne" or something like that. It will add to the flavor and help bring that extra special high fantasy feel. And help to set it apart from the Stronghold series of computer games or the board game of the same name.

=D13=
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby Aleena on Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:51 pm

Based on your above explanation of High and low fantasy (ty now i know) - your subtitle "Struggle for the Blood Throne" gives a more dark view, so it would be more low fantasy... Guess you meant to suggest a subtitle as something like "Stronghold - The Crystal Meadows of the Rainbow Unicorn" - now that's a shiny name.... No dirt and mud, no doom or gloom at all...

Think I just like stronghold, but I do not mind if they add a subtitle...
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby dolomite13 on Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:08 pm

Aleena wrote:Based on your above explanation of High and low fantasy (ty now i know) - your subtitle "Struggle for the Blood Throne" gives a more dark view, so it would be more low fantasy... Guess you meant to suggest a subtitle as something like "Stronghold - The Crystal Meadows of the Rainbow Unicorn" - now that's a shiny name.... No dirt and mud, no doom or gloom at all...

Think I just like stronghold, but I do not mind if they add a subtitle...


How about

Stronghold: Siege of the Crystal Citadel

now that will certainly sparkle
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:34 am

Lots of ideas here ManB, what are your thoughts on them?
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby rishaed on Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:51 pm

Like the new font! It really feels medieval/fantasy more so than the last font!
aage wrote: Maybe you're right, but since we receive no handlebars from the mod I think we should get some ourselves.

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Re: #GCCM Stronghold [7/7] Pages 1/2

Postby rishaed on Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:12 am

A second thought is that your bonuses supposedly represent kingdom's, but I don't see any form of Name for any of those kingdoms, which IMO would help/hurt the high fantasy feel to this map.
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Re: #GCCM Stronghold [7/7] Pages 1/2

Postby The Voice on Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:08 pm

I thought medium maps were allowed to have up to 99 territories. Apologies if I'm wrong, but if that's the case, I'd love to see more. Beautiful map so far :)
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Re: GCCM Map Development thread - Stronghold

Postby dakky21 on Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:36 pm

koontz1973 wrote:Lots of ideas here ManB, what are your thoughts on them?


My thought is to get my map into foundry... :) But maybe, wait until Spetember... I guess ManB got similar issues..
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Re: #GCCM Stronghold [7/7] Pages 1/2

Postby Dillybarr on Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:53 am

Old font was much better, and also I think the territory count is fine :) as for bombardments from rebels I would make it 2 or 3 territories from each one with interconnected rebels and maybe a regular territory to assault. And if people dont think its high enough fantasy (which i think its iffy) a quici fix might be changing the rebels to orcs or centaurs as those are mystical. As for the name, maybe Stronghold: The (rebels,orcs or centaurs) Struggle for Power
Eg: Stronghold: The Centaurs' Struggle for Power
That also givea each individual game its own fantastical storyline.. Or maybe thats just my high mind i dunno.
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Re: #GCCM Stronghold [7/7] Pages 1/2

Postby ender516 on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:40 am

I would like to see the legend reworked to use the full sentence format for the Rebel Territories and the Armies, just as is done for the Kingdoms. The point form used now fails to make clear that the first shield represents a Rebel Territory and the crossed swords, an Army. When you read on into the Kingdom description, it then becomes unclear what it is referring to. There should be room, I think, if things are worded as follows:

Rebel Territories autodeploy 2 troops and
cannot assault, only bombard adjacent regions.

Armies assault the Stronghold and vice versa.
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Re: #GCCM Stronghold [7/7] Pages 1/2

Postby ManBungalow on Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:53 am

I'll see if I can't get something posted this evening.
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Re: #GCCM Stronghold [7/7] Pages 1/2

Postby ManBungalow on Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:59 pm

All that's changed in this version is the font.

I've got some other things in store, but I thought I'd post this anyway to show willing.

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Re: #GCCM Stronghold [7/7] Pages 1/2

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:07 am

You missed 3 territs. Also, have you tested the font on a small map? It might be hard to read when scaled down.
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Re: #GCCM Stronghold [7/7] Pages 1/2

Postby ManBungalow on Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:11 pm

koontz1973 wrote:You missed 3 territs. Also, have you tested the font on a small map? It might be hard to read when scaled down.

Not yet, but I think all of the regions are sufficiently big to allow for some up-scaling of text.

Also, is this an improvement on the image above? All I've done is added some colours to different kingdoms.

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Re: #GCCM Stronghold [7/7] Pages 1/2

Postby Aleena on Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:40 am

I like that new adjustment of colors (shades of green) given to the kingdoms - it makes them more clearly visable beyond just the thick border line...
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Re: #GCCM Stronghold [7/7] Pages 1/2

Postby ender516 on Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:55 am

Yes, but the three armies that attack the stronghold seem to have the same colour as the kingdom containing Cobalt Mine and Bismuth, which confused me at first glance, since two of them are separated from that kingdom. Perhaps a yellowish, sandy wasteland, cleared of brush by those in the stronghold so as to see approaching attackers more easily?
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Re: #GCCM Stronghold [7/7] Pages 1/2

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:48 pm

ManB, please keep the thread title updated.
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Re: #GCCM Stronghold [7/7] Pages 1/2

Postby jonofperu on Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:38 am

Nice use of colors to differentiate kingdoms. Needs some adjustment and the 3 armies have to be included, but right on!
I like the font!
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