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Age of Man

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Re: Age of Man

Postby Fewnix on Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:38 pm

GREAT STUFF

=D> =D> =D>

A suggestion: How about a rough basic game play guide.thingy that can help the beta testers figure out what they need to know, including All the info that you are trying to squeeze onto the map, not jsut

Some gameplay/legend notes on each in the corners of these parchments

A book with 2 pages of info and mini-elipses for the heroes, gods, underworld etc (this will also deal with the brighter colours/pastel clash with the main map)

A couple of small scrolls in any space left for any other info (e.g. Abbreviations)


AND an updated version of this?

Map Name: Age of Man
(Circa 550 BC)

Mapmaker(s): Teflon Kris

Number of Territories: 71

Special Features:

Autodeploy. Killer neutrals. 1-way assaults. Build-your-own-bonus (villages +2 for every 3). Bonuses for individual key regions. Two objectives. Losing condition. Conditional Borders and conditional auto-deploys. Transformations (other players' regions, and killer-neutral regions losing troops when special regions taken).


What Makes This Map Worthy of Being Made:

(1) Only the second world map with conquest gameplay (the other being the more imaginatory 'All-Your-Base'). (2) A historical world map from an interesting ancient period where there was no significant major empire, and many empires were developing (or fading). Gameplay means that players can truly determine historical events, playing one of the multi-cultural protagonists and building an all-conquering empire to shape history from this brief moment (of opportunity) in world history. (3) A medium-sized conquest map (larger than Woodboro/WWII Poland yet smaller than typical conquest maps). (4) A conquest map with a focus on additional features in the central area. (5) Gameplay arranged to focus on the key battleground of the era (the mediterranean). (6) Incorporation of key afterworld concepts of the era.


_______________________________________________________________________________________________________
So there is in one easy to access place clear plain text telling the Beta testers what hey need to know: they are trying out a conquest style map with a focus on certain areas, has some special features ,can be won by objective conditions, need to hold a particular point to survive, etc. and here are the specifics.


The Beta testers,taking the map on the road, can use this guide not just to identify technical bugs, but also to figure out what works for them in gameplay, with some possible minor changes recommended?. What would be cool is if the Beta Testers could comment on preferred settings and even maybe possibly some rough strategy suggestions.for future game players.

Then, back to you and the rest of the Foundry folk to smooth out any rough edges in tha mpa and in the rough basic game play guide.thingy, , This rough basic game play guide thingy ,smoothed out by you and the Beta testers can be the Development link on the maps, the "quenched post" that all Cc'ers can turn to in MAPS by clicking on development to find out things they need to know if they want to play this map.


e.g.
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=97975
TITLE Classic
STATUS Live
RELEASED 2006-01-02
TERRITORIES 42
NEW RECRUITS Y
SPECIAL GAMEPLAY None
AUTHORS demonart, sully800
DEVELOPMENT Discussion
STRATEGY Discussion

The very first map available on Conquer Club, using the same elements as a classic risk board. If you like to play risk with friends, this is the map for you!

This map was revamped by sully800 on 2009-12-3
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Re: Age of Man

Postby Teflon Kris on Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:35 pm

Another minor update:

Image

Edit: I like the idea of a gameplay guide, so here it is: ;-)

First post updated a little too.


Gameplay Guide for Multiplayer Games
(I can add graphics to this if necessary)

The map is suitable for up to 9 players.

In multiplayer, with more than 4-players the village bonus is unlikely to be a big feature until the end-game (after a player has made the first kill etc.).



The Desirable Gameplay Dynamics for Multiplayer Games


Early Game

    Players start on a village. First turn, with normal 3-troops deploy, they all have the obvious option of taking one of the outer strongholds which is a +1 auto-deploy (marked with a green-edged army circle).

    With the 7-neutral on the treacherous routes, players should be well-seperated and unable to go for an early opponent kill without high risk. Especially if opponents leave troops on their villages for defence (as in Middle Ages/Labyrinth/Crazy Kingdoms, if a player no longer has a village then he is killed). Does the 7-neutral need increasing?

    Hopefully, players will not have great difficult in the first few turns given the low value of neutrals near the start positions. They can then advance to the Mediterranean area (inset). Each starting area has its own route into this central area.

    Theoretically, on roughly the same turn, players will arrive at, and take, an auto-deploy central stronghold in the med inset area (marked with a cyan-edged army circle).


Middle Game

    Once players have a central, med inset stronghold (cyan-edged) and an outer, main map stronghold (green edged), they will also get a +1 (conditional) auto-deploy on their trade route (violet-edged region adjacent to central stronghold).

    This will most likely result in a period of build-up as players prepare to either aim for one of the objectives (which would require being a significantly dominant player that others cant stop - unlikely, hence my question as to whether to simply removing the objectives, although they could still be a surprise element in fog games).

    Players will feel the need to fort and deploy carefully given the need to keep a village strong in case of attack, balanced with the need to have plenty of troops on their central stronghold for the various options and bonuses available from there.


Options to Advance from the Central Strongholds

    Some players may be reluctant to advance from their central stronghold in a hurry, especially as leaving it weak may invite opponents to head though their central stronghold and out to their village. Additionally, the advancement options aren't too easy!

    However, some of the options available involve transformations which have an immediate impact on the game.

      Advancing - First Step
      Central Strongholds can all attack Athens, the Med (Great Sea) and Israel. The latter two are killer neutrals, whilst Athens has no value in itself and would not be worth stacking-on (apart from in trench games or for advanced 'blocking' tactics).

      From these regions players can move on to Olympus, Atlantis, or Cerebus (the hounds at the gateway of the Underworld), as well as to the Heroes.

      Advancing - Second Step
      Olympus and Atlantis both give a simple +1 bonus (not auto-deploy this time).

      Cerebus connects to the two other Underworld regions. Holding the Underworld gives a +4 bonus but is extra-hard to hold given the decay on all 3 regions.

      The value of Heroes is that they unlock some conditional borders. To take a God you need a hero:

        Ra can be attacked from Israel when you have a Hero. Ra controls the sun and can therefore devastate civilisations - hold Ra to the next turn and all others' central strongholds (where they may be stacking) lose 2 troops (transformation feature). Whilst not an instant game-winner, this may be a useful mid-game tactic to slow down others' preparations to go for killing/winning moves and weaken them for your own purposes).

        If players get to Hades Palace (unlikely to be defended given the decay) whilst they have a Hero they can then take Hades. As we see below, holding a God is useful, plus taking Hades means that straight away all central strongholds can be attacked from Hades' Palace (without having to go through other central strongholds).

        If players get to Olympus and have a hero they can take Zeus. Olympus can straight away attack outer, main map strongholds directly. This may be an attractive option to prepare for killing an opponent by bypassing his central troops and getting through to his 'home' defences near his villages. Players may wish to wait for the next round though, as holding both Olympus and Zeus gives Zeus a +1 Auto-Deploy.

        A hero also allows players get to take Poseidon from Atlantis. Atlantis can straight away attack treacherous routes on the outer map, another attractive option to prepare for killing an opponent (by bypassing his central troops and getting through to his 'home' defences near his villages). Again, players may wish to wait for the next round though, as holding both Poseidon and Atlantis gives Poseidon a +1 Auto-Deploy, plus, treacherous routes (except the two near the players' own villages) lose 3 troops each, making it more viable to use the conditional border from Atlantis.

More complex options

    The Kraken
    Whilst Zeus-Olympus and Poseidon-Atlantis options give small bonuses and alternative ways of getting to players 'homelands', the Underworld gives a potential larger bonus and Ra helps deplete opponents, the Kraken is the most devastating region on the board.

    The Kraken can directly attack any villages and is therefore a quick route to winning. Holding the Krakjen till next turn makes this easier as others' villages are also depleted.

    However, 'releasing' the Kraken there isn't so simple:

    To 'release the Kraken' players first need to take a Hero, two Gods and the Titans (maybe I make this slightly less difficult: 1 Hero, 1 God and the Titans) .

    The Titans
    As well as being required to release the Kraken, the Titans are also powerful in their own right: the transformation feature means that holding them next turn, they will seek revenge on the other Gods and deplete them, damaging other players' preparations for a winning/killing move (also making it easier to take a second God from an opponent to then 'release the Kraken').



The Gameplay Calculations - Making the Deirable Gameplay Dynamics Come Into Play

For the above desirable dynamics to work, i.e. for players to use the mythical features (rather than simply build-up and go for kills by heading though the 'treacherous routes', or opponents' central strongholds (and trade routes)) requires some thoughtful analysis of the bonus, decay and neutral values of the folllowing components:

  • The Central Strongholds (cyan-edged army circle, starts n4) and 'Trade Route Defence' regions (violet-edged army circle, starts n3) - I'm conscious of having low neutral values for the early stages of the game, to avoid games being decided early by getting bad dice for a couple of rounds trying to take the same region while an opponent quickly grabs a small bonus and expands onwards (as can happen often in say, AoR2 or Treasures of Galapagos). In theory, after a couple of turns players will have had their auto-deploy outer stronghold (green-edged army circle) which should help make sure the n3 and n4 aren't too much trouble? Setting these regions too low however, would mean a player with a slight early advantage could take their 'own' central stronghold and another to then overpower an opponent before he has got to the central area.

    • This whole conundrum has even led me to consider conditional borders for all central strongholds, where they cant attack adjacent strongholds for the first, say, 5 rounds - but then, that may not create the desired middle-nd-end game dynamics either. And, in any case, am I confusing conditional borders with transformations now?

    • Another option may be to make the route from the 'Trade Route Defence' (violet-edged army circle) to the Central Strongholds one-way. This would remove the option for players to deplete one another' central strongholds and go for a kill through a players' defensive-line, but ensure players then either use the mythical features or break through treacherous routes to kill one another. Also, reducing the ways for players to get to one another would probably result in more players risking leaving few troops behind to defend their villages. Making these access routes into the central, med map one-way would negate the need for the 'Trade Route Defence' feature (conditional auto-deploy) which I could then remove, (or maybe not since, if one player grabs another players central stronghold it may be re-taken thanks to having troops remaining from auto-deploys on the violet-edged regions). Maybe if these routes are one-way, Zeus' feature could be to unlock attacks in the opposite direction (as opposed to his current feature of enabling Olympus to directly attack outer stronholds)?

  • Treacherous Routes - effectively they protect players from each other - I suspect to force central play (i.e desired dynamics) the n-value should be a fair bit higher?

  • Athens/Great Sea/Israel - to encourage players to use the mythical features maybe the neutral valkues should be lower? Does Athens need to be a killer neutral as well?

  • Underworld - should the bonus be higher, or maybe the decay on the 3 regions lower? Or is it right (considering that a player could defend on Cerebus as the only way in)? Maybe the neutral values should be lowered on HP & Tartarus?

  • Gods, Heroes, Olympus and Atlantis - is 4 a good neutral value here? I find 5 off-putting (e.g. Emperors in Poison Rome) and maybe 3 is too easy?

  • The Titans and The Kraken - again, is 4 a good value? Maybe lower since its already hard enough to trigger the conditional borders to get to them?




show: To Do List


show: Done
Last edited by Teflon Kris on Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:28 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Age of Man

Postby waauw on Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:09 pm

Honestly I think you've added too much to the map. It has become overcomplicated.
On a graphical note, I'd love it if you'd darken it a bit. It's quite bright on the eyes.
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Re: Age of Man

Postby ManBungalow on Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:51 pm

waauw wrote:Honestly I think you've added too much to the map. It has become overcomplicated.
On a graphical note, I'd love it if you'd darken it a bit. It's quite bright on the eyes.

Speaking with personal opinion here, not so much as a cartographer, I quite agree with waauw. There are players on this site that like complex maps ... I prefer simple. You can have quite advanced gameplay with a simple set of rules (like for instance Feudal War...you'll understand what you have to do in an instant, but it has a really unusual setup). There's a lot of symbols and different colours on the map now, so much that my little brain can't keep up with it all at once.

Ultimately mate it's your map, you decide which direction you're taking with it and the cartographers will guide you through the process. On the whole though I'm really glad about the effort you're putting into this project!
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Re: Age of Man

Postby Teflon Kris on Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:07 am

waauw wrote:On a graphical note, I'd love it if you'd darken it a bit. It's quite bright on the eyes.


Thanks for looking-in again. Yeah, I agree, this is something I will be working on, although a more medium-term priority (added to 'to do list above).



ManBungalow wrote:
waauw wrote:Honestly I think you've added too much to the map. It has become overcomplicated.
On a graphical note, I'd love it if you'd darken it a bit. It's quite bright on the eyes.

Speaking with personal opinion here, not so much as a cartographer, I quite agree with waauw. There are players on this site that like complex maps ... I prefer simple. You can have quite advanced gameplay with a simple set of rules (like for instance Feudal War...you'll understand what you have to do in an instant, but it has a really unusual setup). There's a lot of symbols and different colours on the map now, so much that my little brain can't keep up with it all at once.

Ultimately mate it's your map, you decide which direction you're taking with it and the cartographers will guide you through the process. On the whole though I'm really glad about the effort you're putting into this project!



Thanks mate.

Yeah, at first its a bit daunting, I imagine you feel as I do when I look at Kings Court II.

Gameplay-wise, I'm hoping to keep most of the various elements (villages, strongholds, gods, heroes, titans & kraken), although I'm happy to listen to opinions and make adjustments.


Gameplay Guide

I need to add a section on 'Ways to Win'* at the beginning for global thinkers:

    1. Build on the main map, near starting positions) and kill opponents through 'treacherous routes'.

    2. Grab central strongholds in the inset, build, then attack opponents from the inset back to the main map through their Trade Route Defence (purple-edged circles).

    3. Build in the inset area and take one of the objectives.

    4. Build in the inset area and kill opponents using the Poseidon+Atlantis, Zeus+Olympus or Kraken features.



Making gameplay more understandable

    When I adjust the overall layout (i.e. putting the God stuff together), it should help a lot and make things more understandable.

    In the shorter term, using small scrolls and parchment for different parts of the legend will also aid understandability (e.g. all Gods and heroes stuff on parchment, other stuff on scrolls).

    Whilst I ultimately hope to keep the elements in place, there are a few adjustments available to simplify a little, although it will be much easier for us to consider those once the overall layout is sorted and the whole things isnt too much to take in at once. Ideas include:

    • Remove Ra and give his powers to Hades - not a major change but makes it 1 less thing to understand.

    • Remove the +1 bonuses from Olymus and Atlantis as both regions are attractive enough as part of the requirements to attack others' homelands (i.e. villages) - again, not a major change but makes it 1 less thing to understand.
    • Simplify the 'Trade Route Defence' feature by making a one-way assault and unconditional auto-deploy - makes this feature easier to understand and reduces the overall 'ways to win'* from 4 to 3 (removing option 2).

    • Change the 'treacherous route' feature somehow (e.g. instead of killer neutral and atalntis-dependant transoformation, just make them only attack-able from Atlantis - makes this feature easier to understand and reduces the overall 'ways to win'* from 4 to 3 (removing option 1), or even from 4 to 2 (if both of these last two ideas are taken-up).



Yet more camplex gameplay ideas ("Oh no!" I hear you cry)

  • Olympus Feature
    Well, the first idea is only a small one and works graphically: allowing Olympus to bombard some regions (e.g. anywhere in the med inset, since that is what we see below the clouds). This could replace, or at least, be consistant with a more complex Olympus feature though (e.g. Olympus bombards strongholds, hold Zeus as well and they can be attacked, or something like that)?

  • Massive visual compartmentalisation facilitating easier gameplay understanding (with another (less complex) gameplay-expansion)
    If, the transformation feature can be used to create a page 2, simply accessible with an obvious link (that somehow fits the style and era of the map), then the med inset and Gods/heroes stuff can all be on page two). This would help reduce the information-bombardment on first looking at the map. Plus, players need not think about page 2 too much for a couple of rounds anyway given the start positions and gradual advance to the centre. The free space at the below the first map could be used to add indigenous Gods for each of the starting positions. A minor feature as they would not have powers (maybe just +1 auto-deploy). This would have little impact on the main gameplay (page 2), apart from the fact that the Titans' power would effect the indigenous gods losing 2 troops (as per the existing transformation). This idea I will shelve for a while however, once I have a better idea of how pages in multi-screen maps link visually.
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Re: Age of Man

Postby Teflon Kris on Fri Aug 21, 2015 8:46 pm

Update coming soon :-)
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Re: Age of Man

Postby iancanton on Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:40 pm

Teflon Kris wrote:
  • Remove Ra and give his powers to Hades - not a major change but makes it 1 less thing to understand.
  • Remove the +1 bonuses from Olymus and Atlantis as both regions are attractive enough as part of the requirements to attack others' homelands (i.e. villages) - again, not a major change but makes it 1 less thing to understand.
  • Simplify the 'Trade Route Defence' feature by making a one-way assault and unconditional auto-deploy - makes this feature easier to understand and reduces the overall 'ways to win'* from 4 to 3 (removing option 2).
  • Change the 'treacherous route' feature somehow (e.g. instead of killer neutral and atalntis-dependant transoformation, just make them only attack-able from Atlantis - makes this feature easier to understand and reduces the overall 'ways to win'* from 4 to 3 (removing option 1), or even from 4 to 2 (if both of these last two ideas are taken-up).

i like all of these changes. removing the objective is another possibility, since the kraken is particularly powerful.

in any case, the draft stamp is overdue.

Image

onward and upward!

ian. :)
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Re: Age of Man

Postby Teflon Kris on Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:59 pm

Nice one - gives me an extra impetus of motivation for the next version.

:-)
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Re: Age of Man

Postby iancanton on Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:32 pm

one thing i forgot to ask: is cerebus meant to be cerberus?

http://www.greek-thesaurus.gr/The-Eleus ... eries.html

a map version number and date in the title will be helpful for those occasions when we need to refer to a particular image.

ian. :)
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Re: Age of Man

Postby Fuchsia tude on Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:09 am

iancanton wrote:one thing i forgot to ask: is cerebus meant to be cerberus?

It's a common mistake, apparently.
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Re: Age of Man

Postby Teflon Kris on Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:00 pm

iancanton wrote:one thing i forgot to ask: is cerebus meant to be cerberus?

http://www.greek-thesaurus.gr/The-Eleus ... eries.html

a map version number and date in the title will be helpful for those occasions when we need to refer to a particular image.

ian. :)


Aha, indeed, I will sort these out from now forwards :-)
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Re: Age of Man

Postby t-o-m on Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:59 am

Any update on this? :D
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Medals: 41
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (3) Fog of War Achievement (4) Speed Achievement (3)
Teammate Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (2) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (1)
Clan Achievement (2) Map Contribution (1) Tournament Contribution (3) General Contribution (1)

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