[Abandoned] Research & Conquer

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Re: Research & Conquer [31 Mar 2013] v27 Pg 88

Postby OliverFA on Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:58 pm

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:Welcome back Oliver, I'm glad I was able to get back in contact with you :) A big thank you from me to Isaiah, as well as you Oliver for coming back to the project.

In fact it's me who is grateful that you contacted me. Gracias :)

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:I'm really looking forward to being able to play on this map after providing feedback on it for more than 3 years. Just out of curiousity I just checked and this map has been in development since September 2008, more than 4 1/2 years ago. It's been really great to see this map starting to get regular updates again and looking quite close to being finished graphically.

Anyway, onwards to commenting on the latest update... :)


Maybe things have to happen when they are intended to happen and not when we want them to. I suppose there is a reason for this map not having been finished in all this time and also for not having died either. Anyway it seems this time it's the real one! :)
Welcoming the long awaited Trench Warfare Setting (Previously Adjacent Attacks).

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Research and Conquer - Civilization meets Conquer Club

Best score: 2,346 - Best position: #618 - Best percentile: 4.87%
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Re: Research & Conquer [31 Mar 2013] v27 Pg 88

Postby OliverFA on Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:02 pm

The map is looking really cool, and the hex layout is a great idea. I bet the complex geography will make for very very interesting games!
Welcoming the long awaited Trench Warfare Setting (Previously Adjacent Attacks).

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Re: Research & Conquer [31 Mar 2013] v27 Pg 88

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:23 pm

OliverFA wrote:
-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:Welcome back Oliver, I'm glad I was able to get back in contact with you :) A big thank you from me to Isaiah, as well as you Oliver for coming back to the project.

In fact it's me who is grateful that you contacted me. Gracias :)

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:I'm really looking forward to being able to play on this map after providing feedback on it for more than 3 years. Just out of curiousity I just checked and this map has been in development since September 2008, more than 4 1/2 years ago. It's been really great to see this map starting to get regular updates again and looking quite close to being finished graphically.

Anyway, onwards to commenting on the latest update... :)


Maybe things have to happen when they are intended to happen and not when we want them to. I suppose there is a reason for this map not having been finished in all this time and also for not having died either. Anyway it seems this time it's the real one! :)


You're welcome :)

And at the very least, the map has benefitted from a number of XML updates since it was first started. The <required> tag is gonna cut down the XML a huge amount and the Losing Conditions code has been implemented as well. Heck, was autodeploy even around when the map was first started? That might be another that it's benefitted from.

Anyway, I too look forward to this being the time it actually gets completed :)
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Re: Research & Conquer [31 Mar 2013] v27 Pg 88

Postby ender516 on Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:35 pm

If the Collections XML feature is working, that should help too, if I recall some of the details of the bonuses here correctly.
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Re: Research & Conquer [31 Mar 2013] v27 Pg 88

Postby isaiah40 on Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:35 pm

Another minor/major update.

- Enlarged the selector knobs, now the 888's fit nicely on the small
- Made the text larger on the Selector knobs so now they are easier to read
- Reworded part of the legend
- Made the gauges larger on the small so the region name and 888's fit nicely and can be read easily

Things to do:
- Reword the rest of the legend
- Add a gauge and selector knob to the legend to denote what is an Advanced Research and Normal Research
- Adjust the Advanced Research plates to be centered better
- Anything else that needs to be discussed

Large:
Click image to enlarge.
image


Small with the 888's on the whole map:
Click image to enlarge.
image
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Re: Research & Conquer [4 April 2013] v28 Pg 89

Postby isaiah40 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:42 pm

After talking to TaCKtix, the bonuses that need to be corrected will be:

- Normal reinforcement will be +1 for every 3 regions
- Secret Conscription will be +2 for every 3 regions
- Open Conscription will be +3 for every 3 regions

Open Conscription will override Secret Conscription
Deep Mining will override Mining
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Re: Research & Conquer [4 April 2013] v28 Pg 89

Postby ender516 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:19 pm

So, since you always get normal reinforcement, if you hold Secret Conscription and no other bonus, you will receive a total of +3 for every 3 regions, and if you then hold Open Conscription, you will receive a total of +4 for every 3 regions. Correct?
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Re: Research & Conquer [4 April 2013] v28 Pg 89

Postby isaiah40 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:35 pm

ender516 wrote:So, since you always get normal reinforcement, if you hold Secret Conscription and no other bonus, you will receive a total of +3 for every 3 regions, and if you then hold Open Conscription, you will receive a total of +4 for every 3 regions. Correct?

Correct as far as it is written out.
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Re: Research & Conquer [4 April 2013] v28 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:01 am

isaiah40 wrote:After talking to TaCKtix, the bonuses that need to be corrected will be:

- Normal reinforcement will be +1 for every 3 regions
- Secret Conscription will be +2 for every 3 regions
- Open Conscription will be +3 for every 3 regions

Open Conscription will override Secret Conscription
Deep Mining will override Mining


Isaiah, do you know by chance if TaCKtiX intended to change the original bonus structure? I'm wondering if he misremembered what the original structure was before the modifications had to be made to reduce the bulk of the code. The original structure was as follows:

- Normal reinforcements are +1 for every 3 regions
- Secret Conscription provides +1 for every 2 regions
- Open Conscription provides +1 for every region

Open Conscription should override Secret Conscription. Secret Conscription should override normal reinforcements. I don't believe it was ever part of the original bonus structure due to bulky code restrictions, but the spirit of the design. as I understood it, would have had "normal reinforcements" also be restricted to only land territory spaces/not including the research territories. I believe the intention was to have the usual minimum of three troops per turn, but I could be wrong with that part. It'd be nice to get Oliver's feedback on this, since it's been quite a while and my memory may be a bit off.

If it was TaCKtiX's intention to change the bonus structure when it comes to the conscription techs, then I have to say I really disagree with the change. The entire point to advanced techs is to provide a much larger bonus than the basic techs. The bonus structure laid out by Isaiah has the same increase in benefit from normal reinforcements to Secret Conscription as it does from Secret Conscription to Open Conscription. I much prefer the way it was laid out originally, which made it so Open Conscription could potentially provide a similar increase as Doomsday Device, which in turn provides the option of a second ultimate tech that players could go for, depending on how they're playing the game. While the net result of troops is the same for Open Conscription, the increase from Secret Conscription to Open Conscription is less, which in turn should mean the neutral on Open Conscription should be less. Secret Conscription would also provide twice the bonus it currently does (a net gain of +1 per 3 territories instead of +1 per 6 territories) and hence it's neutral should be increased, which in turn would make it much less attractive as a basic tech to start the game with.

Overall I think the adjustment would seriously mess with the balance that's been carefully created between all of the techs and making that change will open a whole can of worms that I don't think anyone wants to deal with again. I think Oliver's the only other person around that remembers the work that went into figuring out gameplay. I have no doubt that it alone accounts for 40 of the pages of this thread and, IIRC, month's of work between half a dozen or so committed people.
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Re: Research & Conquer [31 Mar 2013] v27 Pg 88

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:25 am

isaiah40 wrote:Another minor/major update.

- Enlarged the selector knobs, now the 888's fit nicely on the small
- Made the text larger on the Selector knobs so now they are easier to read
- Reworded part of the legend
- Made the gauges larger on the small so the region name and 888's fit nicely and can be read easily

Things to do:
- Reword the rest of the legend
- Add a gauge and selector knob to the legend to denote what is an Advanced Research and Normal Research
- Adjust the Advanced Research plates to be centered better
- Anything else that needs to be discussed


Great work on the update Isaiah :) Here are some thoughts:

* The selector knobs fit the small map numbers much better and I think that fixes the problem quite nicely.
* A nice effect of the knobs being enlarged is that if we change the text underneathe, we'll have more space if needed.
* The enlarged text looks nice and will certainly help readability
* The gauges fit the numbers much better as well, great work :)
* I just noticed the new design doesn't mention which researches are basic researches and which are advanced. I think having these titles back in place is pretty crucial, since otherwise it will be difficult for a lot of players to figure it out. It may be difficult to squeeze titles into the current design at this point, so I wonder if somehow including in the legend that the researches with knobs are basic and the ones with name plates (or some better way of describing them) are advanced.
* The advanced name plates should be better centred over the gauges. It looks like maybe they were before the gauges increased in size.
* Now that I see the green glow on West, I think it would be better to swap the glow colours on West and North. The glow doesn't stand out very well on West with the background of trees and I think it would stand out better in North, where the background is tan/brown.

I think that covers everything I've noticed this time around. Keep up the good work Isaiah :)
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Re: Research & Conquer [4 April 2013] v28 Pg 89

Postby isaiah40 on Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:02 am

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:Great work on the update Isaiah :) Here are some thoughts:

1 The selector knobs fit the small map numbers much better and I think that fixes the problem quite nicely.
2 A nice effect of the knobs being enlarged is that if we change the text underneathe, we'll have more space if needed.
3 The enlarged text looks nice and will certainly help readability
4 The gauges fit the numbers much better as well, great work :)
5 I just noticed the new design doesn't mention which researches are basic researches and which are advanced. I think having these titles back in place is pretty crucial, since otherwise it will be difficult for a lot of players to figure it out. It may be difficult to squeeze titles into the current design at this point, so I wonder if somehow including in the legend that the researches with knobs are basic and the ones with name plates (or some better way of describing them) are advanced.
6 The advanced name plates should be better centred over the gauges. It looks like maybe they were before the gauges increased in size.
7 Now that I see the green glow on West, I think it would be better to swap the glow colours on West and North. The glow doesn't stand out very well on West with the background of trees and I think it would stand out better in North, where the background is tan/brown.

I think that covers everything I've noticed this time around. Keep up the good work Isaiah :)


Thank you tanarri!!
On point 5, I am planning on having a small icon of both the selector knob and gauge in the legend area where it talks about the Advance and Basic researches.
On point 6, yes that will be done for the next update as I noticed it just after I posted the latest update.
On point 7 That can be done easily enough.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby isaiah40 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:29 pm

Here's a new update!!

What has been done:
- Added little icons for the Advanced and Basic Researches
- Changed the bonus values for Secret and Open Conscription's
- Made the text on the map a tad bit bigger
- Added "Open Conscription over-rides Open Conscription" in the legend
- Expanded the legend plate
- Centered the advanced plates and gauges
- Centered The Laboratories plate and gauges
- Swapped the W and N outer glows

What needs to be done:
- Possibly bold the compass direction on the gauges??

Large
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image


Small
Click image to enlarge.
image
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Re: Research & Conquer [4 April 2013] v28 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:37 pm

Hi Isaiah,

Yes, I think bolding the compass directions on the gauges would be good. Maybe even bolding or increasing the size a tad on the dials would be good as well, though not necessary. Also, according to the legend the laboratories are an advanced tech. I think the way of labelling the basic and advanced techs is a good one, but I'm wondering if we need to find some other graphic for the troop placeholders for laboratories. The swapped glow looks much better. I'll have to take a better look at this next week to give more feedback once work calms down a bit for me.
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Re: Research & Conquer [4 April 2013] v28 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:38 pm

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:After talking to TaCKtix, the bonuses that need to be corrected will be:

- Normal reinforcement will be +1 for every 3 regions
- Secret Conscription will be +2 for every 3 regions
- Open Conscription will be +3 for every 3 regions

Open Conscription will override Secret Conscription
Deep Mining will override Mining


Isaiah, do you know by chance if TaCKtiX intended to change the original bonus structure? I'm wondering if he misremembered what the original structure was before the modifications had to be made to reduce the bulk of the code. The original structure was as follows:

- Normal reinforcements are +1 for every 3 regions
- Secret Conscription provides +1 for every 2 regions
- Open Conscription provides +1 for every region

Open Conscription should override Secret Conscription. Secret Conscription should override normal reinforcements. I don't believe it was ever part of the original bonus structure due to bulky code restrictions, but the spirit of the design. as I understood it, would have had "normal reinforcements" also be restricted to only land territory spaces/not including the research territories. I believe the intention was to have the usual minimum of three troops per turn, but I could be wrong with that part. It'd be nice to get Oliver's feedback on this, since it's been quite a while and my memory may be a bit off.

If it was TaCKtiX's intention to change the bonus structure when it comes to the conscription techs, then I have to say I really disagree with the change. The entire point to advanced techs is to provide a much larger bonus than the basic techs. The bonus structure laid out by Isaiah has the same increase in benefit from normal reinforcements to Secret Conscription as it does from Secret Conscription to Open Conscription. I much prefer the way it was laid out originally, which made it so Open Conscription could potentially provide a similar increase as Doomsday Device, which in turn provides the option of a second ultimate tech that players could go for, depending on how they're playing the game. While the net result of troops is the same for Open Conscription, the increase from Secret Conscription to Open Conscription is less, which in turn should mean the neutral on Open Conscription should be less. Secret Conscription would also provide twice the bonus it currently does (a net gain of +1 per 3 territories instead of +1 per 6 territories) and hence it's neutral should be increased, which in turn would make it much less attractive as a basic tech to start the game with.

Overall I think the adjustment would seriously mess with the balance that's been carefully created between all of the techs and making that change will open a whole can of worms that I don't think anyone wants to deal with again. I think Oliver's the only other person around that remembers the work that went into figuring out gameplay. I have no doubt that it alone accounts for 40 of the pages of this thread and, IIRC, month's of work between half a dozen or so committed people.


I'd be great to get some feedback on this issue as well, particularly from Oliver if he's still around.
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Re: Research & Conquer [4 April 2013] v28 Pg 89

Postby OliverFA on Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:19 am

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:I'd be great to get some feedback on this issue as well, particularly from Oliver if he's still around.


Hello! I am not only around, I am fully back (as you can see by my golden rank icon) but I don't want to hijack the project. I think that it's fair to acknowledge that Isaiah is the one who has the last word at this stage of the project about what to do and what not to do.

However, I am happy to provide my advice and comments, but please take them as suggestions not as something that I want to impose.

And of course, I am making the XML for this.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby OliverFA on Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:27 am

About the bonus structure, I seem to remember that the original spirit was what Tanarri says, but there is no need to resort to memory. This evening I'll look at the XML file where it is implemented (the huge one of 400KB with dozens and dozens of continents) and post what is exactly implemented there.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby RedBaron0 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:24 am

You could color code the cardinal direction to match the color on the map for the dials as an alternative, and/or also bold the corresponding cardinal direction as Tan suggested.
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Re: Research & Conquer [4 April 2013] v28 Pg 89

Postby isaiah40 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:04 am

OliverFA wrote:
-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:I'd be great to get some feedback on this issue as well, particularly from Oliver if he's still around.


Hello! I am not only around, I am fully back (as you can see by my golden rank icon) but I don't want to hijack the project. I think that it's fair to acknowledge that Isaiah is the one who has the last word at this stage of the project about what to do and what not to do.

However, I am happy to provide my advice and comments, but please take them as suggestions not as something that I want to impose.

And of course, I am making the XML for this.


OliverFA wrote:About the bonus structure, I seem to remember that the original spirit was what Tanarri says, but there is no need to resort to memory. This evening I'll look at the XML file where it is implemented (the huge one of 400KB with dozens and dozens of continents) and post what is exactly implemented there.

Even though I am now doing the graphics on this one, I won't be radically changing the game-play except if need be. Oliver just let me know what needs to be changed to match up with the XML!

RedBaron0 wrote:You could color code the cardinal direction to match the color on the map for the dials as an alternative, and/or also bold the corresponding cardinal direction as Tan suggested.

I can try this! I can't believe I didn't think of this! :roll:
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby OliverFA on Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:10 pm

Hi again! Those are the value directly from the XML file:

Standing Army: +3 minimum reinforcements (for a total of 6). OK
Secret Conscription: +1 army per each two regions (instead of each three). Wrong
National Pride: +6 armies for owning your whole homeland. OK
Mining: +1 army per each mine. Wrong
Sabotage: Bombards mines. OK
Propaganda: +2 per capital held. OK
Top Secret Facility: +6 autodeploy. OK
Standing Army: +12 minimum reinforcements (for a total of 18). OK
Open Conscription: +1 army per each territory. OK
Deep Mining: Doubles mining bonus. OK

Each homeland: +6 OK
Each capital: +3 OK
Losing Condition: Holding at least one capital. OK

Doomsday Device: In the XML it does not have the +75 autodeploy. To be honest I don't remember if that was a mistake I did or if we decided to remove it.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby ender516 on Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:16 am

I searched for "doomsday" in this topic, and had a quick look at the last (oldest) posts. There, the Doomsday Device was marked in the legend as "Victory". So that suggests that, initially at least, it was a winning condition. Further review of the history is in order, but I'm at work right now.
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Re: Research & Conquer [4 April 2013] v28 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:54 pm

OliverFA wrote:
-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:I'd be great to get some feedback on this issue as well, particularly from Oliver if he's still around.


Hello! I am not only around, I am fully back (as you can see by my golden rank icon) but I don't want to hijack the project. I think that it's fair to acknowledge that Isaiah is the one who has the last word at this stage of the project about what to do and what not to do.

However, I am happy to provide my advice and comments, but please take them as suggestions not as something that I want to impose.

And of course, I am making the XML for this.


And I totally agree that it's Isaiah's project and he should have final word on what's done. It's just that he mentioned speaking with TaCKtiX regarding the conscription bonuses and TaCKtiX said that we were going with +2 per 3 regions and +3 per 3 regions for Secret and Open Conscription. It sounds like TaCKtiX misremembered the bonus (unless I'm just forgetting a change that was made) and said that instead of the +1 for 2 regions and +1 for 1 region that we working with originally. I think going with how it's set up now (the seemingly misremembered version) detracts from how important of a tech Open Conscription was originally intended to be, which essentially was a comparible end-of-game option to the Doomsday Device. Perhaps looking at an example of the bonuses would help put my concern in perspective. Say someone had 30 territories, here's how the bonuses look currently.

Normal - 10 troops
Secret Conscription - 20 troops
Open Conscription - 30 troops

This essentially means that by researching Secret Conscription you are gaining 100% extra troops than you were previous to owning the tech and by researching Open Conscription, you are only getting 50% extra troops. To me, that makes Secret Conscription sound like more of an advanced tech than Open Conscription. The way it was set up before, this is what the bonuses would look like:

Normal - 10 troops
Secret Conscription - 15 troops
Open Conscription - 30 troops

This means researching Secret Conscription gives you 50% extra troops and researching Open Conscription gives you 100% extra troops, compared to what you would be getting prior to owning the new tech. This makes Open Conscription seem much more valuable and much more like an advanced tech.

My other concern is if it remains the way it is now, then since the player is getting twice the bonus than they were previously, the neutral value on Secret Conscription should be increased appropriately as well, if not by double then at least close to it. This would essentially kill Secret Conscription as an option as an early'ish game tech and viable tech route, which I feel would significantly damage the gameplay potential, since at that point you've only got two major research routes to take: National Pride/Propaganda/TSF/DoomsDay sit and build route or the Mining route. The previous way you also had the Conscription expand-as-quick-as-you-can route as well.

Sorry if I'm coming across at all pushy here, I will happily respect any final decisions Isaiah makes regarding the map, but I feel this is an important gameplay issue and it's a change that seems to have been made by Isaiah only based on information TaCKtiX provided him with--information which, as far as I can remember, isn't correct. It's a very easy mistake to make when you've been away from the development of the map for more than a year since it's only the difference between increasing the troop amount or decreasing the region amount of the standard +1 per 3 region bonus.

EDIT: Oops, I wrote this before I realized there was another page of posts, so the tone's different than I would have written it if I had known. I'll keep the post up since I think the thoughts are still worth putting out there.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:02 pm

ender516 wrote:I searched for "doomsday" in this topic, and had a quick look at the last (oldest) posts. There, the Doomsday Device was marked in the legend as "Victory". So that suggests that, initially at least, it was a winning condition. Further review of the history is in order, but I'm at work right now.


Originally the Doomsday Device was a Victory Condition. When Losing Conditions were implemented on the site, we quickly decided that owning at least one capital should be a Losing Condition. Since we made this change, we opened up the discussion on what to do with Doomsday Device and decided to make it +75 autodeploy and allow it to bombard all land regions.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby ender516 on Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:34 pm

Okay.

I am not sure it is important at this point, but I also vaguely remember that the change from +1 for 1 to +3 for 3 was intended to reduce the number of continents in the XML. With collections available now, this might be less of a concern.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:45 pm

ender516 wrote:Okay.

I am not sure it is important at this point, but I also vaguely remember that the change from +1 for 1 to +3 for 3 was intended to reduce the number of continents in the XML. With collections available now, this might be less of a concern.


That was the precise reason it was changed from +1 for 1 to +3 for 3. With collections, we should be able to put it back to +1 for 1 and it's a suggestion I'd recommend. Collections will make a huuuuuge difference to the bulk of the XML.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby isaiah40 on Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:46 pm

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:
ender516 wrote:Okay.

I am not sure it is important at this point, but I also vaguely remember that the change from +1 for 1 to +3 for 3 was intended to reduce the number of continents in the XML. With collections available now, this might be less of a concern.


That was the precise reason it was changed from +1 for 1 to +3 for 3. With collections, we should be able to put it back to +1 for 1 and it's a suggestion I'd recommend. Collections will make a huuuuuge difference to the bulk of the XML.

Yes it is changing back to the above. :D
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