[Abandoned] Research & Conquer

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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sat May 18, 2013 9:58 am

OliverFA wrote:I have found the Excel with the calculations. You can download it and play yourselves, or edit it in the Excel webapp

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=E ... rokB7-g5BU


Image


Thanks for posting this Oliver. I think it's worth mentioning that this is a spreadsheet that was created during the middle of gameplay discussions a couple years ago and hence has a few older bonus references in it that have been changed since. Just so people don't get confused about the current bonuses. Things that jump out include:

  • Mining Techs are listed as being +1/+2
  • National Pride is listed as being +1 per 2 territories (4 total)
  • Propaganda is listed as being +4 per enemy homeland
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sat May 18, 2013 11:08 am

One thing I just noticed is there is now only 36 mines on the map instead of the original 40, which will affect the numbers as well, unless the other 4 mines are put back in. I think one other thing it would be useful to do, once we've got a version of the map with the neutral values for all territories, would be to change the positions around for the mines. The north section of the map has 17 mines, the south east section has 11, and the southwest section has 8. I think having them unbalanced is great, but I think it'll turn out that the north section has all easier territories to get (for conscription techs) and a heavier proportion of mines as well. I think it would be great to arrange it in such a way that pursing different tech trees makes more sense dependent on where you start.

For example, if the north has more territories that are easier to conquer (since they're farther from homelands), then it would be more conducive to the conscription techs. If the southeast has the highest proportion of mines, then it's more conducive to mining techs.

If we wanted to, we could even intentionally make the neutrals higher or lower around certain homelands and areas of the map. If say the north was set up with very low neutrals (mostly 1-2s, maybe 3s around the homelands) then it would encourage the use of conscription techs and since there's minimal protection, it may encourage quicker eliminations between the two north homelands and hence encourage the use of Propaganda.

If another one of the two areas of the map, let's say southeast for arguement sake, had average neutrals (5s around homelands, 2-3s around the others), it would encourage more average expansion. If we stuck a notably higher proportion of mines there, then it would encourage the use of the mining techs.

Then the remaining area, southwest arguably, we could have higher neutral values (10s around homelands, 6-8s for the others), that would encourage the use of army techs, propaganda as a support tech, Doomsday, and possibly Sabotage if they felt like messing with people while sitting.

I don't know how I feel about messing with the neutrals like suggested above, it's just something I thought of that I figured I'd throw out there to see how other people thought. In the end I think it would end up forcing people too much in one direction or another, at least the higher neutrals around one set of homelands, since it would make it prohibitive to do anything other than sit there and research. I do like the idea of maybe slightly decreasing the neutrals around the north to encourage conscription and increasing the number of mines around one or both of the southern areas. I like the idea of encouraging people to go in one direction or another with techs depending on homeland, since I think it adds to the strategy, but forcing seems too much.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sun May 19, 2013 10:29 pm

I noticed a while back that there was an uneven number of bridges per area section and I've been looking the bridge positions over here and there. I think we need to remove some of the bridges, to create some chokepoints between the different land areas. I'd like to propose the following bridges be removed:

SG1-WD2
SC11-WD4
EA1-MB2
EC1-MA3

This would leave two bridges per river section, one near the middle of the map to provide central access around the map and another on the outer side of the map, to allow players an opportunity to attack the neighbouring homeland that's across the river and to do so through more of a back entrance or flank to avoid earlier detection to those going through the middle to see where everyone's coming from.

It also provides a situation where there's only four bridges to defend per land section later in the game. This also makes there be a point to having a river/impassable running through the middle of the map between land masses. As it is now, you can cross two of the three river sections at almost any point along them.

Thoughts?
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby isaiah40 on Sun May 19, 2013 11:05 pm

I can work with this idea!.

I'm working on getting all the starting positions, neutrals etc. together and posted in the first post so it will be easier to see.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby RedBaron0 on Sun May 26, 2013 4:35 pm

:pokes isaiah: Since the primary focus seems to have switched back to gameplay, I changed the button to the old simple green button. I don't want to burden you with having to make a GFX update when you are clearly working on gameplay. I won't pull the stamp, but lets just say is provisional, till all parties are satisfied. And we'll poke at ian when you think you're good just to make sure we're all good to focus back on graphical type updates.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sun May 26, 2013 7:20 pm

RedBaron0 wrote::pokes isaiah: Since the primary focus seems to have switched back to gameplay, I changed the button to the old simple green button. I don't want to burden you with having to make a GFX update when you are clearly working on gameplay. I won't pull the stamp, but lets just say is provisional, till all parties are satisfied. And we'll poke at ian when you think you're good just to make sure we're all good to focus back on graphical type updates.


For what it's worth, seeing as most of the gameplay discussion are points that I've been raising, I'd be happy with the map going to beta with the gameplay it has now, with the exception of the mines being +1/+2 instead of +2/+4, which I think is a point that should be discussed further if Isaiah feels it shouldn't be put back to +2/+4. It's been said many times in the past and it's something I wholeheartedly believe: When it comes to gameplay for this map, it really needs to get into beta play before any serious gameplay discussions/tweaks can really take place. Other than the mines, all of the points I've brought up I feel are minor tweaks that *may* add to the gameplay, but are not worth holding up the map getting to beta.

I could be wrong, but I think other the neutral values getting put down onto the map, I think this map is ready to be put back into Final Forge while Oliver works on finalizing the XML. Personally I think any of the gameplay discussions that have been going on are the types of things that can be considered as tweaks to the beta version of the map if the gameplay ends up needing tweaks, which I'm fully expecting it to need for several weeks of beta.

Anyway, just my 0.02 worth :)
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby isaiah40 on Sun May 26, 2013 11:17 pm

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:
RedBaron0 wrote::pokes isaiah: Since the primary focus seems to have switched back to gameplay, I changed the button to the old simple green button. I don't want to burden you with having to make a GFX update when you are clearly working on gameplay. I won't pull the stamp, but lets just say is provisional, till all parties are satisfied. And we'll poke at ian when you think you're good just to make sure we're all good to focus back on graphical type updates.


For what it's worth, seeing as most of the gameplay discussion are points that I've been raising, I'd be happy with the map going to beta with the gameplay it has now, with the exception of the mines being +1/+2 instead of +2/+4, which I think is a point that should be discussed further if Isaiah feels it shouldn't be put back to +2/+4. It's been said many times in the past and it's something I wholeheartedly believe: When it comes to gameplay for this map, it really needs to get into beta play before any serious gameplay discussions/tweaks can really take place. Other than the mines, all of the points I've brought up I feel are minor tweaks that *may* add to the gameplay, but are not worth holding up the map getting to beta.

I could be wrong, but I think other the neutral values getting put down onto the map, I think this map is ready to be put back into Final Forge while Oliver works on finalizing the XML. Personally I think any of the gameplay discussions that have been going on are the types of things that can be considered as tweaks to the beta version of the map if the gameplay ends up needing tweaks, which I'm fully expecting it to need for several weeks of beta.

Anyway, just my 0.02 worth :)

I'm fine with the values as they are - I'll change the mining bonuses to +1/+2 - I've just been really busy this last couple of weeks.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Mon May 27, 2013 2:39 am

isaiah40 wrote:
-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:
RedBaron0 wrote::pokes isaiah: Since the primary focus seems to have switched back to gameplay, I changed the button to the old simple green button. I don't want to burden you with having to make a GFX update when you are clearly working on gameplay. I won't pull the stamp, but lets just say is provisional, till all parties are satisfied. And we'll poke at ian when you think you're good just to make sure we're all good to focus back on graphical type updates.


For what it's worth, seeing as most of the gameplay discussion are points that I've been raising, I'd be happy with the map going to beta with the gameplay it has now, with the exception of the mines being +1/+2 instead of +2/+4, which I think is a point that should be discussed further if Isaiah feels it shouldn't be put back to +2/+4. It's been said many times in the past and it's something I wholeheartedly believe: When it comes to gameplay for this map, it really needs to get into beta play before any serious gameplay discussions/tweaks can really take place. Other than the mines, all of the points I've brought up I feel are minor tweaks that *may* add to the gameplay, but are not worth holding up the map getting to beta.

I could be wrong, but I think other the neutral values getting put down onto the map, I think this map is ready to be put back into Final Forge while Oliver works on finalizing the XML. Personally I think any of the gameplay discussions that have been going on are the types of things that can be considered as tweaks to the beta version of the map if the gameplay ends up needing tweaks, which I'm fully expecting it to need for several weeks of beta.

Anyway, just my 0.02 worth :)

I'm fine with the values as they are - I'll change the mining bonuses to +1/+2 - I've just been really busy this last couple of weeks.


Just for clarification sake, the mining bonuses are +1/+2 as of the last revision, prior to that they were +2/+4 which is what I believe they should be. If the bonuses remain +1/+2, then the neutral values should be look at as they're going to be horribly off for such a small bonus. I still think the better option is for them to be +2/+4 though.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby OliverFA on Mon May 27, 2013 6:01 pm

isaiah40 wrote:I'm fine with the values as they are - I'll change the mining bonuses to +1/+2 - I've just been really busy this last couple of weeks.

Should I start writing the XML for the map? As far as I know, the territory coordinates and the adjacencies won't change. Am I right? That's the big part of the XML work. Changing neutrals or bonuses is not such a big issue.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Mon May 27, 2013 11:20 pm

OliverFA wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:I'm fine with the values as they are - I'll change the mining bonuses to +1/+2 - I've just been really busy this last couple of weeks.

Should I start writing the XML for the map? As far as I know, the territory coordinates and the adjacencies won't change. Am I right? That's the big part of the XML work. Changing neutrals or bonuses is not such a big issue.


Hi Oliver,

Unfortunately I have a feeling that territory positions and adjacancies are going to be quite different. Isaiah has changed the map to be a hex based map and I'm sure he would have had to move territories around in order for the 888's to fit perfectly into one hex. He also had to remove 3 of the territories, which will also make a difference. I think it would be worth while to get a start on that part of the XML using the current map. I don't see anything changing from a position point of view. Most of what we're discussing are neutral values and maybe a couple bonus changes, but those are pretty easy to change.

As far as the XML goes, are we counting only land territories towards the normal territory count? If so, the minimum reinforcements will need to be set to a flat 0 and then a continent with all of the land territories will need to be formed and then the three different levels of land bonus (standard, secret, and open conscription) can be created from there. The only thing I haven't been clear on is what Isaiah decided to do as far as whether Secret Conscription was going to be +1 per 2 regions or +2 per 3 regions.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby OliverFA on Tue May 28, 2013 5:40 pm

Hello Tanarri :)

Ok. I will wait a little bit then. Was just asking because I would not want the map to get stuck because of me.

About the territory count for bonus, the concept is using only the land territories, because the research territories are just a way to represent a different concept. They are not real territories and for that reason they can not count towards bonus. The XML I did long ago had the "territorial bonus" to 0 and then this bonus was simulated by continents.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby RedBaron0 on Thu May 30, 2013 4:12 pm

I wouldn't say the map is stuck, I'm just lifting the burden of graphical updates... for now. Work is being done, I respect that. Cuz the alternative is the bin, such as it has been 5 weeks since a GFX update. Work, discuss, get-r-done... simple as that.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby isaiah40 on Fri May 31, 2013 4:11 pm

RedBaron0 wrote:I wouldn't say the map is stuck, I'm just lifting the burden of graphical updates... for now. Work is being done, I respect that. Cuz the alternative is the bin, such as it has been 5 weeks since a GFX update. Work, discuss, get-r-done... simple as that.

Will get it done. I am at home this weekend and won't be available until Tuesday, so expect something after Tuesday.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:09 pm

Just a quick note of encouragement and anticipation for the next update, whenever it's able to be done... :)

I think the best thing we can do for this map at this point is just finish up the graphics and code and get it into beta. Once we're in beta we can figure out a lot easier what works and what doesn't and tweak from there.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby isaiah40 on Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:23 pm

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:Just a quick note of encouragement and anticipation for the next update, whenever it's able to be done... :)

I think the best thing we can do for this map at this point is just finish up the graphics and code and get it into beta. Once we're in beta we can figure out a lot easier what works and what doesn't and tweak from there.

Exactly what I was going to do. I will be posting the Provisional numbers by Monday night CC time I promise.
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby OliverFA on Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:46 pm

isaiah40 wrote:
-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:Just a quick note of encouragement and anticipation for the next update, whenever it's able to be done... :)

I think the best thing we can do for this map at this point is just finish up the graphics and code and get it into beta. Once we're in beta we can figure out a lot easier what works and what doesn't and tweak from there.

Exactly what I was going to do. I will be posting the Provisional numbers by Monday night CC time I promise.


Looking forward to it! Cheers!!! :D
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:51 pm

OliverFA wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:
-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:Just a quick note of encouragement and anticipation for the next update, whenever it's able to be done... :)

I think the best thing we can do for this map at this point is just finish up the graphics and code and get it into beta. Once we're in beta we can figure out a lot easier what works and what doesn't and tweak from there.

Exactly what I was going to do. I will be posting the Provisional numbers by Monday night CC time I promise.


Looking forward to it! Cheers!!! :D


I'm looking forward to it as well :)
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby isaiah40 on Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:45 pm

Well here is the new provisional numbers version. Looking at it, I think we need to make all the neutral regions start the same, and all the mines to start the same to reduce the size of the XML file. I suggest all non-mine region start with n3, and all the mines start with n4 or n5. All homeland regions c- except the capitals - can start with n2. Does this sound good to everyone??
Provisional Numbers:
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Re: Research & Conquer [17 June 2013] Provisional #'s only p

Postby EricPhail on Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:23 am

Simplified neutrals could work, I'd start with 4 for the mines (what neutrals would the mines in the capital get n2 or n4?)

Have you made up your mind on a lab recovery route? (if yes that needs adding to the legend, and xml presumably)

Other than that, looking good to me
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Re: Research & Conquer [17 June 2013] Provisional #'s only p

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:32 pm

Some thoughts on the recent map revision:

* For the land regions, I'm happy for them to be as they are or as was suggested, since these can always be tweaked once we get to Beta and I think in the end we won't know either way until the map gets played a bit. I have my suspicions that neutral values will need to be higher than either the current revision or the suggestion, just simply because fairly early on in the game people will be dropping 15, but either current option is a good starting point to find out.
* Before I forget to mention again, there should be some mention of no standard region bonus and the bonus is +1 per 3 land regions. If there's to be a minimum of 3 for the land region bonus, then that should be stated as well.
* Mining either needs to be fixed back to +2 per mine or the neutral on Mining and Deep Mining need to be reduced according to the drop in value. Personally I think putting it back to +2 is the better option, since I feel it will add to the gameplay and the importance of the mines (and Sabotage as a result, which also should be reduced a bit if mines are put back to +2). I'd be happy enough with either of these options for the map to go to Beta.
* I still think TSFs should be brought down to 30 neutral, since the +6 bonus would be a 5 turn payback at that point. I suspect the 45 neutral there currently is an artifact from the times where TSFs were a pre-requesite for researching advanced techs. This isn't a point that I'd hold up the map getting to Beta for though.
* I also still think it would be worthwhile to restrict the number of bridges to two per river section, as I think it would add to the strategic value of taking over a single landmass before proceeding to the other land masses.
* As Eric mentioned, the research attack routes need to be sorted out. I think the option of basic reseaches attacking the lab and advanced researches attacking the basic researches is the best option. It could be worded something like "Basic researches border their laboratory and their advanced research" and "Laboratories one way attack TSF and Doomsday" or something similar would probably work out well. This has the added benefit of making sure TSFs and especially Doomsday autodeploys aren't able to be used directly for researching from the labs.

Over all everything's looking great. I think if we can wrap up the last few bits and get the XML taken care of, then having the map in Beta will help figure out the finer details of gameplay a lot easier.
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Re: Research & Conquer [17 June 2013] Provisional #'s only p

Postby cairnswk on Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:51 pm

Guys, this is looking much better from design pov.

1. there is a line sitting right above the "only the most ..." - intentional?

2. the black text is not totally clear immediately on the olive backgrounds in each box for N NW NE etc. With number in there (yes?) it could be very hard to see what these box names are.

3. i think the black text on the brownish background could do with a little lift - perhaps some light brown undershadow or similar just to lift it out of the background.

Hope this helps. :)
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Re: Research & Conquer [17 June 2013] Provisional #'s only p

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:31 pm

Hi Cairns, thanks for dropping by and providing your feedback, it's always nice to have new people posting in here :)
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Re: Research & Conquer [17 June 2013] Provisional #'s only p

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:07 pm

Does anyone else have any other feedback for the provisional numbers? The brief discussion seems to have stalled :)
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Re: Research & Conquer [17 June 2013] Provisional #'s only p

Postby dolomite13 on Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:41 am

I've been following this one a long time. I absolutely love its concept.

I however still feel like the map is a bit too small and the tech areas are just a bit too large for what you are trying to do here. Everything looks so cramped on the map. Great idea to switch to the hexes though.

The edge around he map area is recessed into the control panel. Would that not look better as raised? Like the plates under the controls on the left.

This map was an inspiration to me when I started to create Krazy Kingdoms and Homeworlds. I hope to play it someday.

I like the provisional amounts you have listed on the map.

=D13=
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Re: Research & Conquer [17 June 2013] Provisional #'s only p

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:40 pm

dolomite13 wrote:I've been following this one a long time. I absolutely love its concept.

I however still feel like the map is a bit too small and the tech areas are just a bit too large for what you are trying to do here. Everything looks so cramped on the map. Great idea to switch to the hexes though.

The edge around he map area is recessed into the control panel. Would that not look better as raised? Like the plates under the controls on the left.

This map was an inspiration to me when I started to create Krazy Kingdoms and Homeworlds. I hope to play it someday.

I like the provisional amounts you have listed on the map.

=D13=


Hi Dolomite, thanks for stopping by and providing feedback :)

I've always thought the map was cramped, but without cutting down the number of territories (which I think would affect the overall gameplay too much) or significantly super sizing the map (which will likely affect the playability for many players) I don't see how we could increase the size of the land area significantly enough to make a difference. At the current size, even if we really worked at cutting down the grey space in the tech tree (which will be difficult enough to do on its own), I don't think we'd get very much extra space and the net result may be an increase in size by 1-2px per hex, which isn't going to make that much of a difference to how crammed the land section is. I think switching to hexes helped a lot in getting everything organized, but I really can't think of what else could be done here. If you have any other thoughts short of a serious re-do of the whole map, we'd love to hear them.
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