[Abandoned] Research & Conquer

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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby OliverFA on Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:46 pm

isaiah40 wrote:
-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:Just a quick note of encouragement and anticipation for the next update, whenever it's able to be done... :)

I think the best thing we can do for this map at this point is just finish up the graphics and code and get it into beta. Once we're in beta we can figure out a lot easier what works and what doesn't and tweak from there.

Exactly what I was going to do. I will be posting the Provisional numbers by Monday night CC time I promise.


Looking forward to it! Cheers!!! :D
Welcoming the long awaited Trench Warfare Setting (Previously Adjacent Attacks).

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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:51 pm

OliverFA wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:
-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:Just a quick note of encouragement and anticipation for the next update, whenever it's able to be done... :)

I think the best thing we can do for this map at this point is just finish up the graphics and code and get it into beta. Once we're in beta we can figure out a lot easier what works and what doesn't and tweak from there.

Exactly what I was going to do. I will be posting the Provisional numbers by Monday night CC time I promise.


Looking forward to it! Cheers!!! :D


I'm looking forward to it as well :)
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Re: Research & Conquer [24 April 2013] v29 Pg 89

Postby isaiah40 on Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:45 pm

Well here is the new provisional numbers version. Looking at it, I think we need to make all the neutral regions start the same, and all the mines to start the same to reduce the size of the XML file. I suggest all non-mine region start with n3, and all the mines start with n4 or n5. All homeland regions c- except the capitals - can start with n2. Does this sound good to everyone??
Provisional Numbers:
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Re: Research & Conquer [17 June 2013] Provisional #'s only p

Postby EricPhail on Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:23 am

Simplified neutrals could work, I'd start with 4 for the mines (what neutrals would the mines in the capital get n2 or n4?)

Have you made up your mind on a lab recovery route? (if yes that needs adding to the legend, and xml presumably)

Other than that, looking good to me
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Re: Research & Conquer [17 June 2013] Provisional #'s only p

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:32 pm

Some thoughts on the recent map revision:

* For the land regions, I'm happy for them to be as they are or as was suggested, since these can always be tweaked once we get to Beta and I think in the end we won't know either way until the map gets played a bit. I have my suspicions that neutral values will need to be higher than either the current revision or the suggestion, just simply because fairly early on in the game people will be dropping 15, but either current option is a good starting point to find out.
* Before I forget to mention again, there should be some mention of no standard region bonus and the bonus is +1 per 3 land regions. If there's to be a minimum of 3 for the land region bonus, then that should be stated as well.
* Mining either needs to be fixed back to +2 per mine or the neutral on Mining and Deep Mining need to be reduced according to the drop in value. Personally I think putting it back to +2 is the better option, since I feel it will add to the gameplay and the importance of the mines (and Sabotage as a result, which also should be reduced a bit if mines are put back to +2). I'd be happy enough with either of these options for the map to go to Beta.
* I still think TSFs should be brought down to 30 neutral, since the +6 bonus would be a 5 turn payback at that point. I suspect the 45 neutral there currently is an artifact from the times where TSFs were a pre-requesite for researching advanced techs. This isn't a point that I'd hold up the map getting to Beta for though.
* I also still think it would be worthwhile to restrict the number of bridges to two per river section, as I think it would add to the strategic value of taking over a single landmass before proceeding to the other land masses.
* As Eric mentioned, the research attack routes need to be sorted out. I think the option of basic reseaches attacking the lab and advanced researches attacking the basic researches is the best option. It could be worded something like "Basic researches border their laboratory and their advanced research" and "Laboratories one way attack TSF and Doomsday" or something similar would probably work out well. This has the added benefit of making sure TSFs and especially Doomsday autodeploys aren't able to be used directly for researching from the labs.

Over all everything's looking great. I think if we can wrap up the last few bits and get the XML taken care of, then having the map in Beta will help figure out the finer details of gameplay a lot easier.
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Re: Research & Conquer [17 June 2013] Provisional #'s only p

Postby cairnswk on Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:51 pm

Guys, this is looking much better from design pov.

1. there is a line sitting right above the "only the most ..." - intentional?

2. the black text is not totally clear immediately on the olive backgrounds in each box for N NW NE etc. With number in there (yes?) it could be very hard to see what these box names are.

3. i think the black text on the brownish background could do with a little lift - perhaps some light brown undershadow or similar just to lift it out of the background.

Hope this helps. :)
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Re: Research & Conquer [17 June 2013] Provisional #'s only p

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:31 pm

Hi Cairns, thanks for dropping by and providing your feedback, it's always nice to have new people posting in here :)
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Re: Research & Conquer [17 June 2013] Provisional #'s only p

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:07 pm

Does anyone else have any other feedback for the provisional numbers? The brief discussion seems to have stalled :)
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Re: Research & Conquer [17 June 2013] Provisional #'s only p

Postby dolomite13 on Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:41 am

I've been following this one a long time. I absolutely love its concept.

I however still feel like the map is a bit too small and the tech areas are just a bit too large for what you are trying to do here. Everything looks so cramped on the map. Great idea to switch to the hexes though.

The edge around he map area is recessed into the control panel. Would that not look better as raised? Like the plates under the controls on the left.

This map was an inspiration to me when I started to create Krazy Kingdoms and Homeworlds. I hope to play it someday.

I like the provisional amounts you have listed on the map.

=D13=
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Re: Research & Conquer [17 June 2013] Provisional #'s only p

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:40 pm

dolomite13 wrote:I've been following this one a long time. I absolutely love its concept.

I however still feel like the map is a bit too small and the tech areas are just a bit too large for what you are trying to do here. Everything looks so cramped on the map. Great idea to switch to the hexes though.

The edge around he map area is recessed into the control panel. Would that not look better as raised? Like the plates under the controls on the left.

This map was an inspiration to me when I started to create Krazy Kingdoms and Homeworlds. I hope to play it someday.

I like the provisional amounts you have listed on the map.

=D13=


Hi Dolomite, thanks for stopping by and providing feedback :)

I've always thought the map was cramped, but without cutting down the number of territories (which I think would affect the overall gameplay too much) or significantly super sizing the map (which will likely affect the playability for many players) I don't see how we could increase the size of the land area significantly enough to make a difference. At the current size, even if we really worked at cutting down the grey space in the tech tree (which will be difficult enough to do on its own), I don't think we'd get very much extra space and the net result may be an increase in size by 1-2px per hex, which isn't going to make that much of a difference to how crammed the land section is. I think switching to hexes helped a lot in getting everything organized, but I really can't think of what else could be done here. If you have any other thoughts short of a serious re-do of the whole map, we'd love to hear them.
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Re: Research & Conquer [17 June 2013] Provisional #'s only p

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:28 am

So what's the next step for the map, it seems the discussion has finished for now.
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Re: Research & Conquer [17 June 2013] Provisional #'s only p

Postby Aleena on Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:53 am

not sure - maybe time to scrap it....??
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Re: Research & Conquer [17 June 2013] Provisional #'s only p

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:12 pm

Aleena wrote:not sure - maybe time to scrap it....??


I didn't mean the map seemed dead, just that this phase of the discussion seemed to be finished. I would never think it's time to scrap this map, there's been so much time and dedication put into it and once it's finished, I have no doubt it will be one of the few maps the continues to get regular play due to its unique gameplay.
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Re: Research & Conquer [17 June 2013] Provisional #'s only p

Postby isaiah40 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:45 am

Aleena wrote:not sure - maybe time to scrap it....??

Hell no this isn't going to be scraped!!! After 5 years this is going to be finished!

On that note, sorry for no response for the last couple of weeks, RL has been busy, and with my wife in and out of the hospital a couple of times the last couple of weeks with heart troubles, this has been placed on the back burner. I will get some changes cairns mentioned later, but I will get an update up this week some time.
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Re: Research & Conquer [17 June 2013] Provisional #'s only p

Postby Teflon Kris on Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:41 am

Yeah - I'm wondering if that comment above was actually intended for another thread and accidentally posted here?

Keep going folks.

:D
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Re: Research & Conquer [17 June 2013] Provisional #'s only p

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:09 am

isaiah40 wrote:
Aleena wrote:not sure - maybe time to scrap it....??

Hell no this isn't going to be scraped!!! After 5 years this is going to be finished!

On that note, sorry for no response for the last couple of weeks, RL has been busy, and with my wife in and out of the hospital a couple of times the last couple of weeks with heart troubles, this has been placed on the back burner. I will get some changes cairns mentioned later, but I will get an update up this week some time.


Hope your wife feels better soon Isaiah, heart troubles are always very concerning and I hope everything is okay with her. Looking forward to the updates when you're able to get to them, but RL always comes first :)
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Re: Research & Conquer [17 June 2013] Provisional #'s only p

Postby RedBaron0 on Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:19 pm

Back to the normal button with major gameplay discussions completed, it seems. Back on the monthly schedule at minimum for GFX updates from this date. (7/8/13) Hope all turns out well for your wife, good luck.
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Re: Research & Conquer [17 June 2013] Provisional #'s only p

Postby isaiah40 on Sat Jul 20, 2013 2:51 pm

Just a quick update - a long week later, :lol: . I changed a couple of areas on the text. On the left side, I changed the text to white with a dark outer glow, on the lower right I did it according to cairns suggestion, which I did have at one time. I figured out where that line was coming from on the legend plate, and that is now fixed.
EricPhail wrote:Simplified neutrals could work, I'd start with 4 for the mines (what neutrals would the mines in the capital get n2 or n4?)

Have you made up your mind on a lab recovery route? (if yes that needs adding to the legend, and xml presumably)

Other than that, looking good to me

Mines in the homeland land area I believe we can go with n2.

I changed the legend to reflect that the basic researches can attack the lab as well.

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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:12 pm

Hi Isaiah,

Thanks for the update and all the work you've been doing to keep this map going, I hope everything's settled down for you and all is well iRL.

Some thoughts on the current update:

* Thanks for changing the Mining Tech back to +2 per mine, I really do think that's the best option.

* The conscription techs seem off somehow. If Secret Conscription overrides the standard bonus, then it shoudl be stated and the bonus for it shouldn't be the same as the standard bonus. I've always thought +1 per 2 was the best option, but +2 per 3 was another option too that was up. If Secret Conscription doesn't override the standard bonus, then Open Conscription shoudl be listed as +2 per 3, so that with the standard bonus still in effect it's +3 per 3 total. Personally I'd suggest having Secret Conscription override the standard bonus as well and list the total bonus being received for Secret and Open Conscription.

* I think the neutral territories on the left look easier to read than the ones we've had before. I have two concerns with them though. The first is the shading looks pretty close to that used for the N territories and so the N territories may disappear amoungst the neutrals. The second is having the homelands highlighted and the regular territories not helps point out where the homelands are a bit clearer/easier to the eye... this concern is a pretty minor one though, since the different coloured homelands should be good enough for the job. I think if the N territories had a different colour that stood out nicely and didn't look too similar to the other homelands, it would work out well.

I think that covers everything that popped out at me for now. Thanks again for all the had work :)
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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby EricPhail on Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:45 pm

Looking good, glad to see another update for this

Might want to try using the white with dark glow for all neutral regions just to see if it looks okay (it bring more consistency, all neutral regions now have the same labelling + all regions on the map are white with glow), if it doesn't work leave it as is.
Edit: I can see what you're saying Tanarri, wrt North, perhaps a lighter shade of green

Thoughts: the legend might be in need of a rewrite (ignore legacy entries - eg. researches assault nothing unless stated is now somewhere between superflous and misleading)

Left side is okay (although I think moving the capital entries above the homeland one might be an idea)
eg.:
* +3 per capital held
A capital MUST be held or you are eliminated
Hold an entire homeland....

Right side: (perhaps something like)
A lab borders its own Basic Research and one way assaults the TSf and Doomsday Device
Basic Researches assault the associated advanced research (same colour and country)
Advanced Researchs assault nothing.
A TSf bombard all its homeland researches.
The Doomsday device bombards all land regions.
Open consription over-rides Secret conscription

Just an attempt to make the legend simpler, clearer, and more logical

Edit: for reference when I started my post Tanarri's hadn't been written yet (yikes, that implies I took ~30 minute to write this)
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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:11 pm

EricPhail wrote:Looking good, glad to see another update for this

Might want to try using the white with dark glow for all neutral regions just to see if it looks okay (it bring more consistency, all neutral regions now have the same labelling + all regions on the map are white with glow), if it doesn't work leave it as is.
Edit: I can see what you're saying Tanarri, wrt North, perhaps a lighter shade of green

Thoughts: the legend might be in need of a rewrite (ignore legacy entries - eg. researches assault nothing unless stated is now somewhere between superflous and misleading)

Left side is okay (although I think moving the capital entries above the homeland one might be an idea)
eg.:
* +3 per capital held
A capital MUST be held or you are eliminated
Hold an entire homeland....

Right side: (perhaps something like)
A lab borders its own Basic Research and one way assaults the TSf and Doomsday Device
Basic Researches assault the associated advanced research (same colour and country)
Advanced Researchs assault nothing.
A TSf bombard all its homeland researches.
The Doomsday device bombards all land regions.
Open consription over-rides Secret conscription

Just an attempt to make the legend simpler, clearer, and more logical

Edit: for reference when I started my post Tanarri's hadn't been written yet (yikes, that implies I took ~30 minute to write this)


I was also thinking a ligher shade of green may work for N. The other colours are a pastel shade, so perhaps some sort of pastel green may work and if not, perhaps something a shade or two darker if it doesn't provide enough of a contrast.

I also think the legend could use a bit of a re-write. I'd been putting off sitting down to sort out suggestions before I brought it up. I think the suggestions Eric made are really good, though i'd make a couple minor changes.

First, I'd say "Basic researches border the associated advanced research" or "Basic researches border their advanced research". This helps provide the understanding that those advanced researches can assault their basic researches.

Second, I'd remove the "Advanced researches assault nothing", since it conflicts with the advanced researches that have basic researches being able to assault out. This and the previuos suggestion are presuming these researches are able to assault their basic ones to further faciliate getting the lab and/or basic researches back after nuking. I'd thought the only two which couldn't assault out were TSF (since it should be restricted to research uses only and not be transferrable to Sabotage) and Doomsday (since it's bonus shoudln't be able to help with research). If we wanted to provide further clarity, maybe this line could be replaced with "TSF and Doomsday don't assault anything" or the like.

Third, there should be a line added or changed in there to indiciate Secret Conscription overrides the standard bonus, if that's how we're going to explain the bonus relationship to the standard bonus.

Last, there should be a line added to state only land territories count towards the territory bonus. I'm not sure how to word it, but I definitely think it's important to have in there. We may think it's obvious it should be that way, but I suspect most of CC would expect the research territories to count towards the standard territory bonus if there's no note about it in the legend.
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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby isaiah40 on Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:52 pm

Thank you Tanarri ad Eric!! I'll get another quick update done soon (hopefully not as long as this very long week :lol: )
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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby EricPhail on Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:17 pm

Ah mine temp ideas on the legend were written assuming that the advanced researches were dead ends (the current legend strongly implied this and I couldn't remember reading otherwise), if they border back to their basic relatives (which is a good thing) then Tanarri's corrections are much better.

Perhaps we should start by listing all the bonus rules and unusual borders then cut it down to only whats needed on the legend (so we don't miss anything)
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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:42 am

EricPhail wrote:Ah mine temp ideas on the legend were written assuming that the advanced researches were dead ends (the current legend strongly implied this and I couldn't remember reading otherwise), if they border back to their basic relatives (which is a good thing) then Tanarri's corrections are much better.

Perhaps we should start by listing all the bonus rules and unusual borders then cut it down to only whats needed on the legend (so we don't miss anything)


I think it would be useful for Isaiah to let us know what direction he's decided to go in with the bonuses. I think they're mostly cleared up, with the exception of the Conscription bonuses and whether or not they're going to override the standard bonus and each other, as well as the value of Secret Conscription. From there it should be easy enough to itemize the odd bonus structures and borders.
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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby isaiah40 on Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:00 am

I think to fit with the theme of Researching and Conquering, there won't be a standard bonus i.e. no +1 for every 3 regions. Instead you will only receive the autodeploy's and any research bonuses you are eligible to receive. This will force you to plan your attack more carefully. Open Conscription does over-ride the Secret Conscription.

Here's the update!
Click image to enlarge.
image
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