[Abandoned] Research & Conquer

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Re: Research & Conquer [17 June 2013] Provisional #'s only p

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:09 am

isaiah40 wrote:
Aleena wrote:not sure - maybe time to scrap it....??

Hell no this isn't going to be scraped!!! After 5 years this is going to be finished!

On that note, sorry for no response for the last couple of weeks, RL has been busy, and with my wife in and out of the hospital a couple of times the last couple of weeks with heart troubles, this has been placed on the back burner. I will get some changes cairns mentioned later, but I will get an update up this week some time.


Hope your wife feels better soon Isaiah, heart troubles are always very concerning and I hope everything is okay with her. Looking forward to the updates when you're able to get to them, but RL always comes first :)
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Re: Research & Conquer [17 June 2013] Provisional #'s only p

Postby RedBaron0 on Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:19 pm

Back to the normal button with major gameplay discussions completed, it seems. Back on the monthly schedule at minimum for GFX updates from this date. (7/8/13) Hope all turns out well for your wife, good luck.
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Re: Research & Conquer [17 June 2013] Provisional #'s only p

Postby isaiah40 on Sat Jul 20, 2013 2:51 pm

Just a quick update - a long week later, :lol: . I changed a couple of areas on the text. On the left side, I changed the text to white with a dark outer glow, on the lower right I did it according to cairns suggestion, which I did have at one time. I figured out where that line was coming from on the legend plate, and that is now fixed.
EricPhail wrote:Simplified neutrals could work, I'd start with 4 for the mines (what neutrals would the mines in the capital get n2 or n4?)

Have you made up your mind on a lab recovery route? (if yes that needs adding to the legend, and xml presumably)

Other than that, looking good to me

Mines in the homeland land area I believe we can go with n2.

I changed the legend to reflect that the basic researches can attack the lab as well.

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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:12 pm

Hi Isaiah,

Thanks for the update and all the work you've been doing to keep this map going, I hope everything's settled down for you and all is well iRL.

Some thoughts on the current update:

* Thanks for changing the Mining Tech back to +2 per mine, I really do think that's the best option.

* The conscription techs seem off somehow. If Secret Conscription overrides the standard bonus, then it shoudl be stated and the bonus for it shouldn't be the same as the standard bonus. I've always thought +1 per 2 was the best option, but +2 per 3 was another option too that was up. If Secret Conscription doesn't override the standard bonus, then Open Conscription shoudl be listed as +2 per 3, so that with the standard bonus still in effect it's +3 per 3 total. Personally I'd suggest having Secret Conscription override the standard bonus as well and list the total bonus being received for Secret and Open Conscription.

* I think the neutral territories on the left look easier to read than the ones we've had before. I have two concerns with them though. The first is the shading looks pretty close to that used for the N territories and so the N territories may disappear amoungst the neutrals. The second is having the homelands highlighted and the regular territories not helps point out where the homelands are a bit clearer/easier to the eye... this concern is a pretty minor one though, since the different coloured homelands should be good enough for the job. I think if the N territories had a different colour that stood out nicely and didn't look too similar to the other homelands, it would work out well.

I think that covers everything that popped out at me for now. Thanks again for all the had work :)
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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby EricPhail on Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:45 pm

Looking good, glad to see another update for this

Might want to try using the white with dark glow for all neutral regions just to see if it looks okay (it bring more consistency, all neutral regions now have the same labelling + all regions on the map are white with glow), if it doesn't work leave it as is.
Edit: I can see what you're saying Tanarri, wrt North, perhaps a lighter shade of green

Thoughts: the legend might be in need of a rewrite (ignore legacy entries - eg. researches assault nothing unless stated is now somewhere between superflous and misleading)

Left side is okay (although I think moving the capital entries above the homeland one might be an idea)
eg.:
* +3 per capital held
A capital MUST be held or you are eliminated
Hold an entire homeland....

Right side: (perhaps something like)
A lab borders its own Basic Research and one way assaults the TSf and Doomsday Device
Basic Researches assault the associated advanced research (same colour and country)
Advanced Researchs assault nothing.
A TSf bombard all its homeland researches.
The Doomsday device bombards all land regions.
Open consription over-rides Secret conscription

Just an attempt to make the legend simpler, clearer, and more logical

Edit: for reference when I started my post Tanarri's hadn't been written yet (yikes, that implies I took ~30 minute to write this)
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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:11 pm

EricPhail wrote:Looking good, glad to see another update for this

Might want to try using the white with dark glow for all neutral regions just to see if it looks okay (it bring more consistency, all neutral regions now have the same labelling + all regions on the map are white with glow), if it doesn't work leave it as is.
Edit: I can see what you're saying Tanarri, wrt North, perhaps a lighter shade of green

Thoughts: the legend might be in need of a rewrite (ignore legacy entries - eg. researches assault nothing unless stated is now somewhere between superflous and misleading)

Left side is okay (although I think moving the capital entries above the homeland one might be an idea)
eg.:
* +3 per capital held
A capital MUST be held or you are eliminated
Hold an entire homeland....

Right side: (perhaps something like)
A lab borders its own Basic Research and one way assaults the TSf and Doomsday Device
Basic Researches assault the associated advanced research (same colour and country)
Advanced Researchs assault nothing.
A TSf bombard all its homeland researches.
The Doomsday device bombards all land regions.
Open consription over-rides Secret conscription

Just an attempt to make the legend simpler, clearer, and more logical

Edit: for reference when I started my post Tanarri's hadn't been written yet (yikes, that implies I took ~30 minute to write this)


I was also thinking a ligher shade of green may work for N. The other colours are a pastel shade, so perhaps some sort of pastel green may work and if not, perhaps something a shade or two darker if it doesn't provide enough of a contrast.

I also think the legend could use a bit of a re-write. I'd been putting off sitting down to sort out suggestions before I brought it up. I think the suggestions Eric made are really good, though i'd make a couple minor changes.

First, I'd say "Basic researches border the associated advanced research" or "Basic researches border their advanced research". This helps provide the understanding that those advanced researches can assault their basic researches.

Second, I'd remove the "Advanced researches assault nothing", since it conflicts with the advanced researches that have basic researches being able to assault out. This and the previuos suggestion are presuming these researches are able to assault their basic ones to further faciliate getting the lab and/or basic researches back after nuking. I'd thought the only two which couldn't assault out were TSF (since it should be restricted to research uses only and not be transferrable to Sabotage) and Doomsday (since it's bonus shoudln't be able to help with research). If we wanted to provide further clarity, maybe this line could be replaced with "TSF and Doomsday don't assault anything" or the like.

Third, there should be a line added or changed in there to indiciate Secret Conscription overrides the standard bonus, if that's how we're going to explain the bonus relationship to the standard bonus.

Last, there should be a line added to state only land territories count towards the territory bonus. I'm not sure how to word it, but I definitely think it's important to have in there. We may think it's obvious it should be that way, but I suspect most of CC would expect the research territories to count towards the standard territory bonus if there's no note about it in the legend.
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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby isaiah40 on Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:52 pm

Thank you Tanarri ad Eric!! I'll get another quick update done soon (hopefully not as long as this very long week :lol: )
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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby EricPhail on Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:17 pm

Ah mine temp ideas on the legend were written assuming that the advanced researches were dead ends (the current legend strongly implied this and I couldn't remember reading otherwise), if they border back to their basic relatives (which is a good thing) then Tanarri's corrections are much better.

Perhaps we should start by listing all the bonus rules and unusual borders then cut it down to only whats needed on the legend (so we don't miss anything)
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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:42 am

EricPhail wrote:Ah mine temp ideas on the legend were written assuming that the advanced researches were dead ends (the current legend strongly implied this and I couldn't remember reading otherwise), if they border back to their basic relatives (which is a good thing) then Tanarri's corrections are much better.

Perhaps we should start by listing all the bonus rules and unusual borders then cut it down to only whats needed on the legend (so we don't miss anything)


I think it would be useful for Isaiah to let us know what direction he's decided to go in with the bonuses. I think they're mostly cleared up, with the exception of the Conscription bonuses and whether or not they're going to override the standard bonus and each other, as well as the value of Secret Conscription. From there it should be easy enough to itemize the odd bonus structures and borders.
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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby isaiah40 on Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:00 am

I think to fit with the theme of Researching and Conquering, there won't be a standard bonus i.e. no +1 for every 3 regions. Instead you will only receive the autodeploy's and any research bonuses you are eligible to receive. This will force you to plan your attack more carefully. Open Conscription does over-ride the Secret Conscription.

Here's the update!
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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:58 am

I think having Secret Conscription provide the equivalent of a standard bonus is a really interesting idea and I like it, especially since it gives a significant increase in the bonus between Secret and Open Conscription. Does the site force a minimum of 3 deployable for a territory bonus or is it possible (and you were planning on) having there be no deployable troops beyond the +3 you get for the capital?

I like how the neutrals look, though visually speaking the N territories, and to a lesser extent the E territories, blend in a bit with the neutrals. I wonder if using colours similar to the Mining and Conscription bonuses would work better as a glow for those homelands to help them stand out better.

After some thought and considering the issue of nuclear spoils, I'm wondering if it would be better to have Open Conscription not override Secret Conscription and just be stated as a +2 per 3 territory bonus. Likewise, I wonder if +2 per mine for Deep Mining would be a better bonus. The reason I'm thinking this is because the way it's stated now, if your Mining gets nuked and you own Deep Mining, you should get no bonus at all. Also, if you have both Secret and Open Conscription and your Secret Conscription gets nuked, then you wouldn't have any change in bonus. It would also free up a line of space in the legend, which is needed for a "No Standard Territory Bonus" instruction.

I just noticed the extra bridges were removed as well, which I really like as it helps create some bottlenecks.

Great work Isaiah :)
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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:01 pm

BTW, just to throw it out there, dolomite a couple weeks ago when it was being discussed, sent me a PM with a rough draft of a different layout for the research section that would allow us to increase the size of the small map's land area to the size of the current large map's land area, just to get my opinion before he presented it to everyone else, since he didn't want to step on any toes with how far along the map development is at.

How concerned are others about how cramped the small map land area is compared to the large map version? Do you think it's worth all the additional work to look at other ways to organize the research section to increase the size of the land area? While the large version does look a good deal cleaner, I have some serious reservations about how worth it it would be to set the development back so much. Any thoughts?
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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby OliverFA on Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:40 pm

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:BTW, just to throw it out there, dolomite a couple weeks ago when it was being discussed, sent me a PM with a rough draft of a different layout for the research section that would allow us to increase the size of the small map's land area to the size of the current large map's land area, just to get my opinion before he presented it to everyone else, since he didn't want to step on any toes with how far along the map development is at.

How concerned are others about how cramped the small map land area is compared to the large map version? Do you think it's worth all the additional work to look at other ways to organize the research section to increase the size of the land area? While the large version does look a good deal cleaner, I have some serious reservations about how worth it it would be to set the development back so much. Any thoughts?


In my humble opinion, what this map needs is to keep moving. Things can be done in many different ways, some ways are better for one thing and some ways are better for the other, we could be discussing forever. I say let's move in forward.

PS: I'll do my best to be a lot more active in this thread. Apologies for the absence
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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:58 pm

OliverFA wrote:
-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:BTW, just to throw it out there, dolomite a couple weeks ago when it was being discussed, sent me a PM with a rough draft of a different layout for the research section that would allow us to increase the size of the small map's land area to the size of the current large map's land area, just to get my opinion before he presented it to everyone else, since he didn't want to step on any toes with how far along the map development is at.

How concerned are others about how cramped the small map land area is compared to the large map version? Do you think it's worth all the additional work to look at other ways to organize the research section to increase the size of the land area? While the large version does look a good deal cleaner, I have some serious reservations about how worth it it would be to set the development back so much. Any thoughts?


In my humble opinion, what this map needs is to keep moving. Things can be done in many different ways, some ways are better for one thing and some ways are better for the other, we could be discussing forever. I say let's move in forward.

PS: I'll do my best to be a lot more active in this thread. Apologies for the absence


That's also what I was thinking. I'm worried that if we start changing anything it will put the map back several months or kill it altogether.
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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby OliverFA on Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:40 am

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:That's also what I was thinking. I'm worried that if we start changing anything it will put the map back several months or kill it altogether.


I fully agree. Things can always be improved, but there is a quote from someone that says "Better is the enemy of good". In that particular case aiming for better is a danger for the whole project. I think it's a much better idea to finish this map and then, perhaps, a second part.
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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:53 am

OliverFA wrote:
-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:That's also what I was thinking. I'm worried that if we start changing anything it will put the map back several months or kill it altogether.


I fully agree. Things can always be improved, but there is a quote from someone that says "Better is the enemy of good". In that particular case aiming for better is a danger for the whole project. I think it's a much better idea to finish this map and then, perhaps, a second part.


Speaking of finishing the map, I'm wondering if it wouldn't be a good point to get a start on the updated XML. I'd certainly hold off on bonuses and research territories for now, but I don't see any of the map territories changing at this point, so it should be safe to start on revising the land territory names and connections to what they are now. Same with updating the land territory collection and mining territory bonus collection as well. This way once the map gets finalized we'll be all the closer to getting it to Beta.
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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby OliverFA on Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:18 pm

Yes. I think it's a very good idea to start the XML, because that will really help in getting the map to beta.

And... The sooner the map reaches the beta state the sooner I can demonstrate through gameplay that the sabotage tech is a bad idea ;-)
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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:11 pm

OliverFA wrote:Yes. I think it's a very good idea to start the XML, because that will really help in getting the map to beta.

And... The sooner the map reaches the beta state the sooner I can demonstrate through gameplay that the sabotage tech is a bad idea ;-)


It's funny you should say that, because I've been thinking the same of the Propaganda tech :) I'm quite happy to keep everything as it is for now until Beta to see how everything works together, but I don't think the current Propaganda tech will get used very much. Hopefully I get proved wrong though :)
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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby OliverFA on Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:45 pm

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:
OliverFA wrote:Yes. I think it's a very good idea to start the XML, because that will really help in getting the map to beta.

And... The sooner the map reaches the beta state the sooner I can demonstrate through gameplay that the sabotage tech is a bad idea ;-)


It's funny you should say that, because I've been thinking the same of the Propaganda tech :) I'm quite happy to keep everything as it is for now until Beta to see how everything works together, but I don't think the current Propaganda tech will get used very much. Hopefully I get proved wrong though :)


It's hard to resist the temptation to reopen the gameplay debate again, but I tend to agree with you ;)

I think that propaganda would have a lot more sense as a tech that prevented negative income from the foreign homelands. That is, each conquered homeland has a negative income (think of it like guerrilla, rebels, resistance movement etc) and only by developing a proper propaganda system can the locals be convenced that their new rulers are not evil and that they should stop resisting them.
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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby OliverFA on Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:53 pm

And about the sabotage tech, it spoils any strategy in a game, because it makes too many territories open to bombardment. Perhaps with the new key feature in the XML sabotage could be changed to "each capital can bombard the near regions" (the one whose name start with the same letter as the first name of the capital)
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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby EricPhail on Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:53 pm

First off I'm with the consensus in general - write the xml, get it to beta (nitpicks can wait for now).


However since you brought it up, Oliver - no offense but I don't think anyone would research that version of sabotage (go through umpteen neutrals so that my capital can bombard teritories that a. I really want to hold for their bonus and b. probably cost me less to take outright (also worth noting that c. It would have to be renamed since it wouldn't really be sabotage anymore)
(if I were redesigning sabotage it would probably be along the lines of - territories you control have bombardment range (2 or 3) againt nearby mines - original idea kept, but it's no longer reaching the whole map always and automatically, instead it just affects the front lines, could be very useful in trench)

Tanarri, re: propoganda ....
(no, will resist urge to further reopen gameplay debates, especially given I don't have a good idea for that one...)

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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:50 pm

EricPhail wrote:First off I'm with the consensus in general - write the xml, get it to beta (nitpicks can wait for now).


However since you brought it up, Oliver - no offense but I don't think anyone would research that version of sabotage (go through umpteen neutrals so that my capital can bombard teritories that a. I really want to hold for their bonus and b. probably cost me less to take outright (also worth noting that c. It would have to be renamed since it wouldn't really be sabotage anymore)
(if I were redesigning sabotage it would probably be along the lines of - territories you control have bombardment range (2 or 3) againt nearby mines - original idea kept, but it's no longer reaching the whole map always and automatically, instead it just affects the front lines, could be very useful in trench)

Tanarri, re: propoganda ....
(no, will resist urge to further reopen gameplay debates, especially given I don't have a good idea for that one...)

It's time to research and conquer the xml (I'll get my coat)


Yeah, I had to resist the urge to respond to Oliver's posts earlier too, lest the gameplay discussion gets going again. I will say that I like your option better than Oliver's suggestion though, since I can't see being able to bombard the few spots around your capital being something anyone would use. The current one is potentially overpowerd, but wew'll see how it turns out first.
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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby isaiah40 on Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:27 am

I haven't forgotten this guys, I've been busy covering for tnb80 while he is gone on vacation/moving, so I've been getting maps quenched, and making sure things keep moving smoothly as much as possible.

On that note, we will keep the game-play intact except for the couple minor changes we agreed on. SO I need to see what gfx things I need to do.
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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby OliverFA on Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:53 pm

Thanks for the update Isaiah. Let me know when it's time to do the XML
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Re: Research & Conquer [20 July 2013] V31a pg 96

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:18 pm

isaiah40 wrote:I haven't forgotten this guys, I've been busy covering for tnb80 while he is gone on vacation/moving, so I've been getting maps quenched, and making sure things keep moving smoothly as much as possible.

On that note, we will keep the game-play intact except for the couple minor changes we agreed on. SO I need to see what gfx things I need to do.


I think there are only two things that need to be adjusted at this point. The first is changing the North and possibly East territory glow colours to something that stands out better from the neutral glow. The other is getting a 'No Standard Territory Bonus' statement crammed into the legend somewhere. That's all I can see in 10 minutes of looking over the map.
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