Average Games A Day July 21 - 28

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Average Games A Day July 21 - 28

Postby Coleman on Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:32 am

I did this because I wanted to know and thought it might imply what kind of maps we should be making (which it unfortunately does not). Since I did the work I see no reason why I can't share my findings in case other people are interested.

It may (debatable) reveal problems to those who view the data certain ways. I'll provide one example later.

Results (Name / Average Games A Day / Rank):
Code: Select all
Classic              1309.14   1
Doodle Earth          215.29   2
Luxembourg            186.14   3
Feudal War            178.29   4
Arms Race!            148.71   5
World 2.1             116.57   6
Peloponnesian War     113.57   7
British Isles          99.29   8
New World              84.14   9
Age Of Realms 2: Magic 77.14  10
Feudal Epic            53.29  11
England                52.29  12
Poker Club             50.57  13
Korea                  49.57  14
American Civil War     48.43  15
Australia              45.00  16
Route 66               42.86  17
Europe 1914            41.29  18
Greater China          41.29  18
Age Of Realms 1: Might 40.43  20
Canada                 39.71  21
WWII Poland            37.14  22
Madagascar             33.43  23
USA                    32.29  24
Cyprus                 31.57  25
Treasures Of Galapagos 29.71  26
Das Schloss            29.57  27
Waterloo               29.29  28
Imperium Romanum       27.29  29
Egypt: Nubia           25.14  30
King Of The Mountains  24.43  31
Africa                 23.43  32
Age Of Realms 3: Ma... 22.43  33
Golfe Du Saint-Laurent 22.29  34
Alexander's Empire     22.29  34
Italy                  22.14  36
San Francisco          22.14  36
Age of Merchants       22.00  38
Iberia                 20.86  39
King's Court           20.14  40
USA West               20.00  41
France                 19.86  42
Clandemonium           19.71  43
Midgard                19.71  43
San Marino             19.57  45
Eastern Hemisphere     19.43  46
Jamaica                18.71  47
Charleston             18.71  47
Napoleonic Europe      18.14  49
First Nations Americas 18.00  50
13 Colonies            17.71  51
Europa                 17.00  52
Indochina              16.86  53
Japan                  16.00  54
Texan Wars             15.86  55
BeNeLux                15.86  55
Europe                 15.86  55
Flanders 1302          15.71  58
USA Rockies            15.57  59
Berlin 1961            15.57  59
Arctic                 15.57  59
Middle East            15.57  59
WWII Europe            15.14  63
City Mogul             15.00  64
Dust Bowl              15.00  64
Caribbean Islands      15.00  64
Brazil                 15.00  64
Nordic Countries       14.71  68
Austro-Hungarian Em... 14.57  69
Scotland               14.57  69
Portugal               14.57  69
8 Thoughts             14.43  72
Cairns Coral Coast     14.29  73
Pearl Harbor           14.14  74
Siege!                 13.86  75
Poison Rome            13.71  76
Third Crusade          13.43  77
Celtic Nations         13.14  78
Monsters               13.14  78
Germany                13.14  78
Middle Ages            13.00  81
NYC                    13.00  81
Cricket                12.71  83
Battle For Iraq!       12.71  83
D-Day: Omaha Beach!    12.71  83
Asia                   12.71  83
Vancouver              12.29  87
Atlantis               12.14  88
North America          12.14  88
Circus Maximus         12.14  88
Iceland                12.00  91
Duck And Cover         11.86  92
Greenland              11.71  93
Baseball               11.57  94
USA Great Lakes        11.57  94
Montreal               11.57  94
Stalingrad             11.43  97
Balkan Peninsula       11.29  98
Lunar War              11.29  98
USA Southwest          11.14 100
Malta                  11.00 101
Great Lakes            10.86 102
U.S. Senate            10.71 103
Hong Kong              10.71 103
USA Southeast          10.43 105
WWII Western Front     10.43 105
Oasis                  10.29 107
Ireland                10.29 107
Antarctica             10.14 109
Fractured America      10.00 110
Castle Lands            9.71 111
CCU                     9.57 112
Central America         9.43 113
USA New England         8.71 114
Ancient Greece          8.71 114
Crossword               8.57 116
Austerlitz              8.43 117
First Nations North A.. 8.43 117
Hive                    8.14 119
Halloween Hollows       8.14 119
High Seas               8.14 119
Discworld               8.14 119
México                  8.00 123
Macedonia               8.00 123
Supermax: Prison Riot!  7.86 125
France 1789             7.71 126
Tamriel                 7.71 126
Egypt: Lower            7.29 128
Holy Roman Empire       7.14 129
Chinese Checkers        7.14 129
Woodboro                7.00 131
Soviet Union            7.00 131
Haiti                   6.86 133
WWII Iwo Jima           6.86 133
Space                   6.86 133
Wales                   6.57 136
Gilgamesh               6.43 137
Indian Empire           6.43 137
Conquer 4               6.43 137
Rail USA                6.43 137
South America           6.29 141
Philippines             6.00 142
Oceania                 5.86 143
Archipelago             5.86 143
WWII Gazala             5.71 145
Madness                 5.71 145
Transsib 1914           5.57 147
Thailand                5.57 147
Chicago                 5.57 147
Netherlands             5.57 147
Bamboo Jack             5.43 151
Mongol Empire           5.43 151
Forbidden City          5.29 153
First Nations South A.. 5.14 154
USApocalypse            5.00 155
Unification Italy       4.86 156
Triple Alliance         4.86 156
Operation Drug War      4.86 156
WWII Ardennes           4.86 156
Egypt: Valley Of The K. 4.86 156
WWII Australia          4.86 156
Northwest Passage       4.71 162
Cairns Metro            4.71 162
Rail Europe             4.71 162
South Africa 1885       4.57 165
Unification Germany     4.57 165
Land And Sea            4.29 167
The Citadel             4.29 167
Egypt: Upper            4.29 167
Solar System            4.29 167
Midkemdil               4.14 171
Puget Sound             4.00 172
Dawn Of Ages            3.71 173
WWI Ottoman Empire      3.71 173
WWII Eastern Front      3.71 173
Thyseneal               3.57 176
Conquer Man             3.43 177
Battle Of Actium        3.29 178
Rail Africa             3.00 179
Rail Australia          2.71 180
Orient Express 1883     2.57 181
Sydney Metro            2.43 182
Draknor - Level 1       2.43 182
Prohibition Chicago     2.00 184
Extreme Global Warming  2.00 184


One thing that is important to note is sometimes few players make MANY games on a particular map each day. New World for instance typically has 10-20 unique creators daily for this time period even though it has about 84 games made a day.

That and other factors means that this is in no way a popularity contest or implying that maps which see more play are better than maps that see less play (unless you think like the producers of American Idol but that's a different topic altogether).

Anyway, how does this reveal problems? Depends on what you consider a problem I suppose. Here are some things that struck me.

With the exception of Korea, which is seeing a bump for being new, the highest ranked map from 2010 onwards is Cyprus at 25, and no 2010 or later maps are in the top 10 (Korea is 14). I'm not going to try to say this means anything in particular, just something I couldn't help but notice.

If you total the average games a day by year (over the past 7 days) and then divide that by the total number of maps that were made that year it looks like this:
Code: Select all
2011   16.10
2010   11.11
2009   18.05
2008   23.53
2007   23.39
2006   21.53 (not including classic)


While I found this way of displaying the information initially alarming it becomes less so because...

Some games that are ranked quite highly are farming maps. What does that mean? It means a high number of games are created by the same people with the intent of farming points. Many conquest style maps and small territory style maps become farming maps because simple rules not inherently apparent to a new player can put an experienced one way ahead. Also small territory maps see more play because they make for faster speed games. Incidentally while Arms Race is very popular, experienced players do make many a day to farm points from people who don't know the basic strategies that multiple plays make apparent.

Here are those same numbers with the farming maps removed:
Code: Select all
2011   16.10
2010   11.11
2009   14.09
2008   14.11
2007   12.95
2006   21.53


There are other things that struck/bothered me (real quick that the number of maps released a year is on the decline at the present rate but that might not be a big deal) but I am getting tired so maybe another day.

If I were able I would have listed the unique creators of games per map per day but my script for that runs into several irreconcilable problems, at least for now. :|

Anyway, here is what I did, I may continue doing it (but probably won't continue posting it as becoming relied on for anything this regular isn't a good idea for me).
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Re: Average Games A Day July 21 - 28

Postby natty dread on Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:46 am

Really interesting statistics. Thanks Coleman!
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Re: Average Games A Day July 21 - 28

Postby greenoaks on Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:08 am

some interesting numbers coupled with poor analysis =D>
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Re: Average Games A Day July 21 - 28

Postby Coleman on Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:22 am

greenoaks wrote:some interesting numbers coupled with poor analysis =D>


Although I doubt you will respond, could you elaborate? I don't view analysis and opinions as the same so that may be the problem; I gave many opinions that you might not agree with.
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Re: Average Games A Day July 21 - 28

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:36 am

Now all you need to do Coleman is to compile a list with mapmakers to see who makes the most played maps.
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Re: Average Games A Day July 21 - 28

Postby greenoaks on Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:42 am

Coleman wrote:I did this because I wanted to know and thought it might imply what kind of maps we should be making (which it unfortunately does not).

you started with a good reason for the stats but jumped to an unfounded conclusion prior to any stats being seen by us

Coleman wrote:One thing that is important to note is sometimes few players make MANY games on a particular map each day. New World for instance typically has 10-20 unique creators daily for this time period even though it has about 84 games made a day.

That and other factors means that this is in no way a popularity contest or implying that maps which see more play are better than maps that see less play (unless you think like the producers of American Idol but that's a different topic altogether).

you do it again here. why bother to look at what type of maps people play if you are not interested in any result that differs from your opinion of good or bad.

Coleman wrote:With the exception of Korea, which is seeing a bump for being new, the highest ranked map from 2010 onwards is Cyprus at 25, and no 2010 or later maps are in the top 10 (Korea is 14). I'm not going to try to say this means anything in particular, just something I couldn't help but notice.

If you total the average games a day by year (over the past 7 days) and then divide that by the total number of maps that were made that year it looks like this:
Code: Select all
2011   16.10
2010   11.11
2009   18.05
2008   23.53
2007   23.39
2006   21.53 (not including classic)


While I found this way of displaying the information initially alarming it becomes less so because...

Some games that are ranked quite highly are farming maps. What does that mean? It means a high number of games are created by the same people with the intent of farming points. Many conquest style maps and small territory style maps become farming maps because simple rules not inherently apparent to a new player can put an experienced one way ahead. Also small territory maps see more play because they make for faster speed games. Incidentally while Arms Race is very popular, experienced players do make many a day to farm points from people who don't know the basic strategies that multiple plays make apparent.

Here are those same numbers with the farming maps removed:
Code: Select all
2011   16.10
2010   11.11
2009   14.09
2008   14.11
2007   12.95
2006   21.53

here you don't like the numbers so you remove enough maps to get the results you want.

it would appear that your opinion of what maps should be made is not supported by the stats on what maps people are playing so you ridicule the masses or remove their choices from the data.

so lets start again
Coleman wrote:I did this because I wanted to know and thought it might imply what kind of maps we should be making.

  • maps of the entire planet (Classic, Doodle, World 2.1) are ranked 1, 2 & 6. perhaps another earth map would be popular such as the oceans/land reversed map or one that utilises the larger map size now available. World 3.0 anyone?
  • maps with separated starting positions (Feudal War, Pelo War, New World, Realms 2, Feudal Epic, Realms 1) are ranked 4, 7, 9, 10, 11 & 20. clearly there is demand for this map type.
  • small maps that are great for speed games (Doodle & Luxemburg) are ranked 2 & 3. there is demand for this map type.

i am sure there are other similarities between some of the maps on the list that could be used as a guide for what might be popular. likewise what do the ones at the bottom have in common that it might be best to avoid.
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Re: Average Games A Day July 21 - 28

Postby Coleman on Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:04 pm

To begin, if I was good enough at writing scripts to come up with the number of unique game creators per map per week we wouldn't be having this discussion at all because I would have just posted that.

I do appreciate your feedback though. It helps make me realize how I must come across and it's a little... err... not what I like. I could just blame it on the brain damage but my personality is intact (I think) so that isn't really fair. Anyways...

greenoaks wrote:you started with a good reason for the stats but jumped to an unfounded conclusion prior to any stats being seen by us


I was expecting to see very clear numbers in favor of specific types of gameplay but further investigation proved this to not be the case.

greenoaks wrote:you do it again here. why bother to look at what type of maps people play if you are not interested in any result that differs from your opinion of good or bad.


I am sorry that I implied I had an opinion before I presented the results. But clearly one person making 100 games a day is not the same as 30 people making 30 games a day. The number of games made being the sole measure of map popularity is thus flawed.

greenoaks wrote:here you don't like the numbers so you remove enough maps to get the results you want.

it would appear that your opinion of what maps should be made is not supported by the stats on what maps people are playing so you ridicule the masses or remove their choices from the data.


Neither is true, unfortunately. I do not care what the results are. The first set of data implied that the popularity of the newer maps was much lower then the older maps. The reality is a large group of the older maps contained the 1 person making 100s of games scenario. A fact you seem to have chosen to ignore, or maybe I didn't present it clearly enough. 1 person voting 100s of times for a person in american idol makes that person win, but it doesn't mean they were better than someone else getting less votes from more people. The loud and fanatically devoted do tend to obscure statistics, that should not be the case here.

greenoaks wrote:
Coleman wrote:I did this because I wanted to know and thought it might imply what kind of maps we should be making.

  • maps of the entire planet (Classic, Doodle, World 2.1) are ranked 1, 2 & 6. perhaps another earth map would be popular such as the oceans/land reversed map or one that utilises the larger map size now available. World 3.0 anyone?
  • maps with separated starting positions (Feudal War, Pelo War, New World, Realms 2, Feudal Epic, Realms 1) are ranked 4, 7, 9, 10, 11 & 20. clearly there is demand for this map type.
  • small maps that are great for speed games (Doodle & Luxemburg) are ranked 2 & 3. there is demand for this map type.

i am sure there are other similarities between some of the maps on the list that could be used as a guide for what might be popular. likewise what do the ones at the bottom have in common that it might be best to avoid.


I agree with the first bullet point (although one all world map is at the very bottom), and the last as well as your end comment. Unfortunately, the second only makes them seem popular for reasons I have stated over and over. I designed New World and I would love to be able to argue that it is the 9th most popular map. Unfortunately 2 or 3 people frequently make many games a day on it, that, to me, is not real popularity.

I personally (actual pure opinion time) have no interest designing any more conquest (separated starting position) style maps. Feudal War seems to be the only one that escapes most of the problem I am pointing out (although its numbers are somewhat boosted by it) and any attempt I made would only be a lame attempt at emulating that success.
Last edited by Coleman on Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Average Games A Day July 21 - 28

Postby DiM on Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:16 pm

Coleman wrote: I designed New World and I would love to be able to argue that it is the 9th most popular map. Unfortunately 2 or 3 people frequently make many games a day on it, that, to me, is not real popularity.


actually it is popularity, just a different kind.

generally speaking we have 3 types:

1. maps that have lots of games made by lots of people
2. maps that have lots of games made by few people
3. maps that have few games made by few people

if new world fits in category 2 it is still more popular than the maps that fit in category 3.
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Re: Average Games A Day July 21 - 28

Postby Coleman on Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:20 pm

DiM wrote:
Coleman wrote: I designed New World and I would love to be able to argue that it is the 9th most popular map. Unfortunately 2 or 3 people frequently make many games a day on it, that, to me, is not real popularity.


actually it is popularity, just a different kind.

generally speaking we have 3 types:

1. maps that have lots of games made by lots of people
2. maps that have lots of games made by few people
3. maps that have few games made by few people

if new world fits in category 2 it is still more popular than the maps that fit in category 3.


I do appreciate that response, and you are right, it is a form of popularity. I'm going to work on my scripts some more and see if I can get past the weird game number problem I am having because I want to know how many category 1 maps there are and what they are.

It might be that I just need to figure out which game number is the first game at the beginning of the time range I want to use, but they don't quite work like that. I could just accept that there is some % of error involved and just run the damn thing...
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Re: Average Games A Day July 21 - 28

Postby DiM on Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:54 pm

also i've been wondering if popularity means quality and how exactly do we measure that?

in my opinion it doesn't. and the best example is doodle earth. there are 84756 games just for 8 players freestyle assassin. just for that specific gametype we have that insane amount of games. more than half of the maps ever created don't even have that many total games. considering the fact that most of those doodle games are over in less than a minute and are 99% decided by luck (drop/dice) i can clearly testify that popularity has nothing to do with strategy and quality. this is something i've been thinking even back in 2007 but i was told i'm wrong. back then i wanted to make a wheel of fortune map where basically it was all about luck. the foundry cried it's insane and nobody wants such games. the doodle russian roulette games prove me right... unfortunately.

anyway, i guess the best way to asses the quality of a map would be to see the number of games with some specific settings (that favour strategy over luck, 4-8 players,standard, chained/adjacent, no spoils, manual deployment) and starting from there to analyze other factors like how many people created those games, how many unique people joined them, and so on.

just for fun, with these settings (4-8 players,standard, chained/adjacent, no spoils, manual deployment) there are just 12 doodle games.
if we remove the manual deployment condition (which seems to be avoided by many) we still get a very low number of games. just 609.

by comparison north america has 15 and 649 despite having an overall number of games 10 times smaller than doodle.
so basically north america is a far more strategic map than doodle
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Re: Average Games A Day July 21 - 28

Postby Coleman on Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:01 pm

DiM wrote:also i've been wondering if popularity means quality and how exactly do we measure that?

in my opinion it doesn't. and the best example is doodle earth. there are 84756 games just for 8 players freestyle assassin. just for that specific gametype we have that insane amount of games. more than half of the maps ever created don't even have that many total games. considering the fact that most of those doodle games are over in less than a minute and are 99% decided by luck (drop/dice) i can clearly testify that popularity has nothing to do with strategy and quality. this is something i've been thinking even back in 2007 but i was told i'm wrong. back then i wanted to make a wheel of fortune map where basically it was all about luck. the foundry cried it's insane and nobody wants such games. the doodle russian roulette games prove me right... unfortunately.

anyway, i guess the best way to asses the quality of a map would be to see the number of games with some specific settings (that favour strategy over luck, 4-8 players,standard, chained/adjacent, no spoils, manual deployment) and starting from there to analyze other factors like how many people created those games, how many unique people joined them, and so on.

just for fun, with these settings (4-8 players,standard, chained/adjacent, no spoils, manual deployment) there are just 12 doodle games.
if we remove the manual deployment condition (which seems to be avoided by many) we still get a very low number of games. just 609.

by comparison north america has 15 and 649 despite having an overall number of games 10 times smaller than doodle.
so basically north america is a far more strategic map than doodle


Assdoodles are popular, I say give the people what they want, even if it isn't necessarily something I would make or promote. If we accept your assumptions that those settings = strategic and strategic = better then we can say Doodle Earth is not a good map. Either way, there is no way to deny that many many people play Doodle Earth and that it must keep some people interested and enjoying the site which is really the whole point.

Anyway, the whole problem is I was trying to use statistics to measure an opinion, which is simply never going to work. Even if I do get my unique creators thing running it still might not show anything as useful as I wanted.

The most I can feel we can really take from this are which maps are category 3 and trying to figure out why. It would be worthwhile. While I personally loathe starting to tell new people their map has too many category 3 characteristics and base suggestions for change or stopping the project over it, frankly, it might not be the worst idea in the world.

What would be most interesting to me now is to see how many people play a map once and then never play it again, but that would be a nightmare to figure out and we could probably only guess as to why.
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Re: Average Games A Day July 21 - 28

Postby MarshalNey on Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:59 pm

From my perspective, the right questions are being asked here, but as Coleman points out, unfortunately, the stats can't give even modestly reliable answers.

In representative politics, there seems to be a vested interest in asking the electorate for as little information as possible to select a winner (yes or not yes). There's no reason, however, for this site to emulate that idea when so much more is possible with relatively little trouble. Just playing a map or not playing a map isn't necessarily a very good way of gauging 'positive' popularity. For instance, while DiM is correct that a #2 style map is more popular than a #3, I would still argue that it might be less desirable- because farming often constitutes a negative experience for the player getting milked. In fact, it may be one of the principal factors in the desertion of a New Recruit.

There's a system in place for ranking players- time and again I've heard suggestions for a similar system for ranking maps. It would be nice to see, because then we could get the reasons (the publics ones, anyway) why maps get played (or not) and how they are perceived (strategic, good for team games, 'relax and kill stuff' kind of map, etc.)

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Re: Average Games A Day July 21 - 28

Postby DiM on Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:01 am

MarshalNey wrote: because farming often constitutes a negative experience for the player getting milked. In fact, it may be one of the principal factors in the desertion of a New Recruit.


i might be wrong but i think new recruits can't be farmed anymore. i'm not sure but from what i heard they play unranked games at first and they can't join difficult maps.
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Re: Average Games A Day July 21 - 28

Postby natty dread on Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:38 am

DiM wrote:
MarshalNey wrote: because farming often constitutes a negative experience for the player getting milked. In fact, it may be one of the principal factors in the desertion of a New Recruit.


i might be wrong but i think new recruits can't be farmed anymore. i'm not sure but from what i heard they play unranked games at first and they can't join difficult maps.


Not true.
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