Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:24 pm

Flapcake wrote:
Seamus76 wrote:I like the idea of having the maps be open to people who have at least one map medal. This is an additional incentive, and benefit for having spent countless hours of hard work to get a map through the process and into play. This also keeps the secrecy element but at the same time includes the foundry, as well as talented map makers, in the process.


Just my words, I think this would be a fair way to go. But but but, (thers always a but) The foundry does have visitors that dont make maps, course to lack of skill/time/ohter reasons, but they do have a lot of sensible comments to the map making progress, for examble to mention one, Andy, they would then be kept out ?


lol Andy is an admin. He has access to all forums. But yes I get what you mean and it is exactly the thing i was referring when I said there's no compromise between a closed system and a open one. You can make a closed system bigger, but it's still closed.

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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby natty dread on Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:29 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:lol Andy is an admin. He has access to all forums. But yes I get what you mean and it is exactly the thing i was referring when I said there's no compromise between a closed system and a open one. You can make a closed system bigger, but it's still closed.


I think you're making it more difficult than it needs to be.

Of course, I'd like those maps to be made in the open, in the foundry, like all the other maps. However if this is not acceptable to the admin for "surprise" reasons ( :roll: ), then a closed system that would include all the people who regularly post in the foundry would be the second best solution. You could set a criteria of "at least 6 months of being an active poster/contributor in the foundry" or something like that.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby Flapcake on Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:31 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:
Flapcake wrote:
Seamus76 wrote:I like the idea of having the maps be open to people who have at least one map medal. This is an additional incentive, and benefit for having spent countless hours of hard work to get a map through the process and into play. This also keeps the secrecy element but at the same time includes the foundry, as well as talented map makers, in the process.


Just my words, I think this would be a fair way to go. But but but, (thers always a but) The foundry does have visitors that dont make maps, course to lack of skill/time/ohter reasons, but they do have a lot of sensible comments to the map making progress, for examble to mention one, Andy, they would then be kept out ?


lol Andy is an admin. He has access to all forums. But yes I get what you mean and it is exactly the thing i was referring when I said there's no compromise between a closed system and a open one. You can make a closed system bigger, but it's still closed.


But not that closed, It would be your (admins) responsibility to let people in when they pay interest to map making an serius comments in the foundry.
well Andy do have good comments but he dont do maps, if he wasent a admin I think that some one like him (as a non map maker) would be granded acces to that kind of user group.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:38 pm

natty_dread wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:lol Andy is an admin. He has access to all forums. But yes I get what you mean and it is exactly the thing i was referring when I said there's no compromise between a closed system and a open one. You can make a closed system bigger, but it's still closed.


I think you're making it more difficult than it needs to be.

Of course, I'd like those maps to be made in the open, in the foundry, like all the other maps. However if this is not acceptable to the admin for "surprise" reasons ( :roll: ), then a closed system that would include all the people who regularly post in the foundry would be the second best solution. You could set a criteria of "at least 6 months of being an active poster/contributor in the foundry" or something like that.



I still think your system makes things more difficult and it applies the same system that has left you out of the behind the scenes maps. You're setting a criteria that makes you happy but that doesn't make happy the others. Who says you can decide who is in or out? just using your same criteria....

If i have to pick one good idea from what was posted here, the best one is the call, who wants to help can be added. Simple, quick and manageable.

Said that without knowing what the Entertainment group thinks we are discussing about nothing, because like MrBenn said, CAs and myself are not so involved with those seasonal maps. And as I said I'm against them, I just see them like a good yearly contest throwed away. For me a foundry contest shoudl be the only way we produce seasonal maps.

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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby natty dread on Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:58 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:I still think your system makes things more difficult and it applies the same system that has left you out of the behind the scenes maps.


Again, this is not about me or me wanting to get involved in the making of seasonal maps, no matter what you want to imply.

I'd prefer the seasonal maps to be made openly in the foundry. But if that's not possible, then at least include the people in the foundry to the process.

The criteria I suggested was just one possibility. I'd be happy with no criteria at all, something like an open usergroup that anyone who stumbles in the foundry can join. Or an open contest in the foundry, that would work just as well.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:33 pm

I picked a terrible time to visit the family, lol. I'll catch up eventually, I'm sure...

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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby lostatlimbo on Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:23 am

I don't know. When I see gimmick maps like the holiday ones, I generally just ignore them. I'm not offended or slighted that they exist.

I don't especially see a need for a full foundry process for any map that is only going to show up once a year. Oaktown has made some beautiful maps (Eastern Hemi, Route 66, etc) but he obviously phoned in St. Patty's Day. Why wouldn't he? Its a map a small handful will enjoy for about one week a year. There's no need to make that map exceptional.

They aren't real maps, they are simply marketing tools. Every business needs seasonal/event news to talk about. Stay on people's minds. Hell, I'm surprised there aren't more of these. They aren't any good to us super-fans, but to the casual person who pays for premium and plays sporadically, they serve a purpose. They probably get folks back on the site.

Can you say the same thing for some of the maps we spend months/years producing here? If someone posts on the Conquer Club Facebook or Twitter page that the Christmas map is back, I bet that gets a lot more traffic than an announcement about a new map of... Thyseneal? Ancient Korea? Portland?

Everyone posting here appreciates the amount of work and creativity that goes into a good map, but most folks don't. Most folks appreciate novelty and familiarity and they represent a much larger piece of Conquer Club's revenue stream.

This isn't particular to Conquer Club either. Does anyone really find Ke$ha to be a good musician? Anyone actually find Rob Schneider funny or Michael Bay to be a competent director? I bet we all know a dozen extremely talented people that no one will ever hear about. Quality rarely equals popularity.

So... I don't get the fuss. Let them make junky novelty maps when they want. Focus on the stuff you care about and ignore the rest.

Besides, if someone has a St. Patrick or Christmas map idea they want to develop into an amazing, permanent map, who is stopping them? Go post it in the draft room. If its solid, I'm sure it will make it through and replace the temporary crap we have now.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby lostatlimbo on Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:34 am

On a side note, if Conquer Club was smart, they would have Free maps and Premium maps. Give extra incentive for players to pay for premium.

Want to play on Classic, Asia, USA or Christmas? Knock yourself out, you can play on one of each for Free.

Want to play on All Your Bases, First Nations, or Baseball? Well, better pony up for Premium, because those maps took some elbow grease.

Not only would it increase their revenue in a much smarter way than Conquer Cup tournaments, but they could start paying the mapmakers that put the most effort into the foundry in more than virtual medals and premium extensions (which works out to... $.05/hour on average?)
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby gimil on Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:03 am

lostatlimbo wrote:On a side note, if Conquer Club was smart, they would have Free maps and Premium maps. Give extra incentive for players to pay for premium.

Want to play on Classic, Asia, USA or Christmas? Knock yourself out, you can play on one of each for Free.

Want to play on All Your Bases, First Nations, or Baseball? Well, better pony up for Premium, because those maps took some elbow grease.

Not only would it increase their revenue in a much smarter way than Conquer Cup tournaments, but they could start paying the mapmakers that put the most effort into the foundry in more than virtual medals and premium extensions (which works out to... $.05/hour on average?)


I think if my maps where only accessible through paid membership I would be expecting cold hard cash...not more premium. I don't want lack making direct profit from my hard work ;).
What do you know about map making, bitch?

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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby natty dread on Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:19 am

gimil wrote:I don't want lack making direct profit from my hard work ;).


He already does.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby gimil on Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:54 am

natty_dread wrote:
gimil wrote:I don't want lack making direct profit from my hard work ;).


He already does.


No he doesn't. Lack doesn't charge people for the privilege to play on my maps. They are already available to anyone who signs up to ConquerClub.com. Lack makes direct profit by charging people for the following privileges:

[*]Play UNLIMITED simultaneous games
[*]Play thrilling real-time SPEED games
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[*]Send game invitations to your friends to RESERVE their spots
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby natty dread on Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:27 pm

gimil wrote:No he doesn't. Lack doesn't charge people for the privilege to play on my maps. They are already available to anyone who signs up to ConquerClub.com. Lack makes direct profit by charging people for the following privileges:


Lack does make profit from the maps on this site though. The maps are part of what attracts paying customers to his site, so he is using them for profit.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:18 am

natty_dread wrote:
gimil wrote:No he doesn't. Lack doesn't charge people for the privilege to play on my maps. They are already available to anyone who signs up to ConquerClub.com. Lack makes direct profit by charging people for the following privileges:


Lack does make profit from the maps on this site though. The maps are part of what attracts paying customers to his site, so he is using them for profit.

So maps are the marketing tool he uses to get paying customers. You are both right. He may not be selling the maps for money but he does use them to entice players onto the site. Either way, he make money, we make maps. Both parties happy.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby zimmah on Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:11 am

i think it makes perfect sense to involve the foundry regulars, and especially the veteran mapmakers in making new maps, even those special behind the scenes ones.

if you want us to respect your authority as foundry team, why don't you show some respect to the mapmakers first? instead, you undermine your own authority by just ignoring your own rules and ignoring the foundry veterans.

a closed usergroup allowing foundry veterans (people with at least 5 map-medals or exceptional contribution to the mapmaking scene, for example) would be great and much better then some dark cellars with only the elite chosen few.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby DiM on Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:25 am

zimmah wrote:if you want us to respect your authority as foundry team, why don't you show some respect to the mapmakers first? instead, you undermine your own authority by just ignoring your own rules and ignoring the foundry veterans.


actually thenobodies80 and his CAs aren't at fault here. for some of those maps they weren't even invited to the "party" :lol:
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby zimmah on Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:57 am

DiM wrote:
zimmah wrote:if you want us to respect your authority as foundry team, why don't you show some respect to the mapmakers first? instead, you undermine your own authority by just ignoring your own rules and ignoring the foundry veterans.


actually thenobodies80 and his CAs aren't at fault here. for some of those maps they weren't even invited to the "party" :lol:


i'm not blaming anyone in person but the system as a whole.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:24 pm

In relation with this discussion, I want to let you know that all the maps developed behind the scenes in the past years now have a dedicated topic into the viewing gallery.
There you can report problems or leave comments on the map. :)
All future maps (if there will be) developed behind the scenes for special events will have a dedicated topic in future when released; for now I can't tell if those threads will be created into the viewing gallery directly or instead into the Final Forge, maybe labelled as Beta, honestly I need an official reply to give you the final say on it.
However, I am in favor of having them as Beta maps when released.

Hope this step, let me say in the right direction, is welcome.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:47 pm

Natty, we don't always see eye 2 eye, but your first post i totally agree with.
Every map should go through the Foundry process.
It simply levels the playing field.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby natty dread on Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:54 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:Hope this step, let me say in the right direction, is welcome.


Yeah, it's a good step. Let's not stop walking though ;)
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby The Bison King on Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:58 pm

Sorry I'm coming in late to this conversation and it seems really silly to me. This whole argument seems to be based around the idea that map making is a right and not a privilege. If the people who dedicate their time to this site and who are proven map makers want to surprise you guys with a secret update, I don't have a problem with it. Think of it as a christmas present.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby natty dread on Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:13 pm

The Bison King wrote:This whole argument seems to be based around the idea that map making is a right and not a privilege.


You have it all backwards I'm afraid... Mapmaking is not a right, and the standards of the foundry process are what govern over who gets to make the maps. Those standards decide who has the privilege to create maps. If people get to make maps outside the foundry, then they are circumventing the foundry process, and therefore the same standards are not being applied to those maps. In other words, they are the ones who are treating mapmaking as if it is a "right".

The Bison King wrote:If the people who dedicate their time to this site and who are proven map makers


Even "proven mapmakers" have to follow the foundry process, receive feedback and make changes according to them. No matter how "proven" you are, I still haven't seen anyone make a map that would have unchanging gameplay/graphics from version 1.

In other words, it doesn't matter if they are proven mapmakers or not, only the end result matters. And looking at most of the "surprise" maps, the end result isn't very good. The lack of feedback and proper development is always detrimental to the quality of the end product, no matter how skilled a mapmaker is working on the project. That's the whole reason we have the foundry process in the first place, and not using it for some maps is a waste of potential.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby The Bison King on Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:23 pm

You have it all backwards I'm afraid... Mapmaking is not a right,

No on that we agree. I most definitely DO NOT see it is a right. Perhaps on that I was unclear.

the standards of the foundry process are what govern over who gets to make the maps. Those standards decide who has the privilege to create maps.

Right but, if you are a member of the select group who set those standards, you are obviously aware of them and can (should be able to) design your maps up to the site standards with out the input of the masses, and release them into general play as a surprise.

YES, I'm aware that I'm essentially saying that they are above the law and NO I wouldn't want any government to operate this way, but this isn't congress this is a fun gaming site 4 kids. What's the worst that could happen? we have a map that isn't quite up to standards? Or more likely you make some other map makers Jelly, cause they can't circumvent the system. (I know, I know, it's an argument about principles, but arguing for the sake of practicality, and expedience)

Besides this is a map on which everyone agrees that the gameplay needed improvement. I say that if Nobodies just wants to get it done, let him.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby natty dread on Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:50 pm

The Bison King wrote:Right but, if you are a member of the select group who set those standards, you are obviously aware of them and can (should be able to) design your maps up to the site standards with out the input of the masses, and release them into general play as a surprise.


No matter how select a group you are a member of, it doesn't matter. I haven't seen even the very best of the best of mapmakers make a single map that would have become what it is without feedback from the foundry community.

Lack of proper feedback is detrimental to the quality of any map, no matter how experienced the maker is. That's why we have the foundry process in the first place.

The Bison King wrote:this is a fun gaming site 4 kids.


Actually, I think the median age of CC members is definitely above "kid" age.

The Bison King wrote:What's the worst that could happen? we have a map that isn't quite up to standards?


So then we could just as well shut down the entire foundry, since having maps that aren't up to standards is apparently OK?

We in the foundry, mapmakers and CA:s alike, strive to provide the best possible maps for the public to play on. We don't just slap something together and figure it's "good enough" since it's only for a "kids site" (which CC really isn't). We do the best we can, endure a rigorous peer-review process of feedback and updates, and that some people get to sidestep this process simply because they're part of some inner-circle group is disrespectful to the entire foundry community.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby The Bison King on Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:20 pm

No matter how select a group you are a member of, it doesn't matter. I haven't seen even the very best of the best of mapmakers make a single map that would have become what it is without feedback from the foundry community.

Lack of proper feedback is detrimental to the quality of any map, no matter how experienced the maker is. That's why we have the foundry process in the first place.

Yes I absolutely agree, but this is a map that has already been through the foundry, it's just like it's getting another update.

Actually, I think the median age of CC members is definitely above "kid" age.

I know I was being facetious.

So then we could just as well shut down the entire foundry, since having maps that aren't up to standards is apparently OK?

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying hat people who know what they are doing from time to time can circumvent the proper channels for the better interest of the site. If this was a philosophical argument I would agree with you, but it's not.

If you get injured at work you're supposed to fill out all the proper paper work, but sometimes you don't want to get your boss in trouble so you just ignore it... wait that was a weird analogy... The point is that every rule has exceptions. You're arguing that there are no exceptions any of the time no matter what. I'm arguing that this is reality, there are and should be exceptions, and that those decisions should be made by the people who are qualified to make them. That's all.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby natty dread on Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:37 am

The Bison King wrote:Yes I absolutely agree, but this is a map that has already been through the foundry, it's just like it's getting another update.


What map? None of the surprise maps have been through the foundry. I don't know what you're talking about.

The Bison King wrote:That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying hat people who know what they are doing from time to time can circumvent the proper channels for the better interest of the site. If this was a philosophical argument I would agree with you, but it's not.


But how do we decide who are these people who "know what they're doing"? When the whole thing is done behind closed doors...

Besides, you keep ignoring this part of my argument:

natty_dread wrote:No matter how select a group you are a member of, it doesn't matter. I haven't seen even the very best of the best of mapmakers make a single map that would have become what it is without feedback from the foundry community.


So you see it doesn't matter that they're "proven mapmakers" or whatever (if they are...), when they lack the proper feedback and process of the foundry, there's no real quality control. Just look at the Easter & christmas maps. They do not look good.
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