Conquer Club

DiM wrote:

zimmah wrote:if you want us to respect your authority as foundry team, why don't you show some respect to the mapmakers first? instead, you undermine your own authority by just ignoring your own rules and ignoring the foundry veterans.

actually thenobodies80 and his CAs aren't at fault here. for some of those maps they weren't even invited to the "party"

i'm not blaming anyone in person but the system as a whole.

In relation with this discussion, I want to let you know that all the maps developed behind the scenes in the past years now have a dedicated topic into the viewing gallery.
There you can report problems or leave comments on the map.
All future maps (if there will be) developed behind the scenes for special events will have a dedicated topic in future when released; for now I can't tell if those threads will be created into the viewing gallery directly or instead into the Final Forge, maybe labelled as Beta, honestly I need an official reply to give you the final say on it.
However, I am in favor of having them as Beta maps when released.

Hope this step, let me say in the right direction, is welcome.
Goodnight everyone
Nobodies

Natty, we don't always see eye 2 eye, but your first post i totally agree with.
Every map should go through the Foundry process.
It simply levels the playing field.

thenobodies80 wrote:Hope this step, let me say in the right direction, is welcome.

Yeah, it's a good step. Let's not stop walking though

Sorry I'm coming in late to this conversation and it seems really silly to me. This whole argument seems to be based around the idea that map making is a right and not a privilege. If the people who dedicate their time to this site and who are proven map makers want to surprise you guys with a secret update, I don't have a problem with it. Think of it as a christmas present.

The Bison King wrote:This whole argument seems to be based around the idea that map making is a right and not a privilege.

You have it all backwards I'm afraid... Mapmaking is not a right, and the standards of the foundry process are what govern over who gets to make the maps. Those standards decide who has the privilege to create maps. If people get to make maps outside the foundry, then they are circumventing the foundry process, and therefore the same standards are not being applied to those maps. In other words, they are the ones who are treating mapmaking as if it is a "right".

The Bison King wrote:If the people who dedicate their time to this site and who are proven map makers

Even "proven mapmakers" have to follow the foundry process, receive feedback and make changes according to them. No matter how "proven" you are, I still haven't seen anyone make a map that would have unchanging gameplay/graphics from version 1.

In other words, it doesn't matter if they are proven mapmakers or not, only the end result matters. And looking at most of the "surprise" maps, the end result isn't very good. The lack of feedback and proper development is always detrimental to the quality of the end product, no matter how skilled a mapmaker is working on the project. That's the whole reason we have the foundry process in the first place, and not using it for some maps is a waste of potential.

You have it all backwards I'm afraid... Mapmaking is not a right,

No on that we agree. I most definitely DO NOT see it is a right. Perhaps on that I was unclear.

the standards of the foundry process are what govern over who gets to make the maps. Those standards decide who has the privilege to create maps.

Right but, if you are a member of the select group who set those standards, you are obviously aware of them and can (should be able to) design your maps up to the site standards with out the input of the masses, and release them into general play as a surprise.

YES, I'm aware that I'm essentially saying that they are above the law and NO I wouldn't want any government to operate this way, but this isn't congress this is a fun gaming site 4 kids. What's the worst that could happen? we have a map that isn't quite up to standards? Or more likely you make some other map makers Jelly, cause they can't circumvent the system. (I know, I know, it's an argument about principles, but arguing for the sake of practicality, and expedience)

Besides this is a map on which everyone agrees that the gameplay needed improvement. I say that if Nobodies just wants to get it done, let him.

The Bison King wrote:Right but, if you are a member of the select group who set those standards, you are obviously aware of them and can (should be able to) design your maps up to the site standards with out the input of the masses, and release them into general play as a surprise.

No matter how select a group you are a member of, it doesn't matter. I haven't seen even the very best of the best of mapmakers make a single map that would have become what it is without feedback from the foundry community.

Lack of proper feedback is detrimental to the quality of any map, no matter how experienced the maker is. That's why we have the foundry process in the first place.

The Bison King wrote:this is a fun gaming site 4 kids.

Actually, I think the median age of CC members is definitely above "kid" age.

The Bison King wrote:What's the worst that could happen? we have a map that isn't quite up to standards?

So then we could just as well shut down the entire foundry, since having maps that aren't up to standards is apparently OK?

We in the foundry, mapmakers and CA:s alike, strive to provide the best possible maps for the public to play on. We don't just slap something together and figure it's "good enough" since it's only for a "kids site" (which CC really isn't). We do the best we can, endure a rigorous peer-review process of feedback and updates, and that some people get to sidestep this process simply because they're part of some inner-circle group is disrespectful to the entire foundry community.

No matter how select a group you are a member of, it doesn't matter. I haven't seen even the very best of the best of mapmakers make a single map that would have become what it is without feedback from the foundry community.

Lack of proper feedback is detrimental to the quality of any map, no matter how experienced the maker is. That's why we have the foundry process in the first place.

Yes I absolutely agree, but this is a map that has already been through the foundry, it's just like it's getting another update.

Actually, I think the median age of CC members is definitely above "kid" age.

I know I was being facetious.

So then we could just as well shut down the entire foundry, since having maps that aren't up to standards is apparently OK?

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying hat people who know what they are doing from time to time can circumvent the proper channels for the better interest of the site. If this was a philosophical argument I would agree with you, but it's not.

If you get injured at work you're supposed to fill out all the proper paper work, but sometimes you don't want to get your boss in trouble so you just ignore it... wait that was a weird analogy... The point is that every rule has exceptions. You're arguing that there are no exceptions any of the time no matter what. I'm arguing that this is reality, there are and should be exceptions, and that those decisions should be made by the people who are qualified to make them. That's all.

The Bison King wrote:Yes I absolutely agree, but this is a map that has already been through the foundry, it's just like it's getting another update.

What map? None of the surprise maps have been through the foundry. I don't know what you're talking about.

The Bison King wrote:That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying hat people who know what they are doing from time to time can circumvent the proper channels for the better interest of the site. If this was a philosophical argument I would agree with you, but it's not.

But how do we decide who are these people who "know what they're doing"? When the whole thing is done behind closed doors...

Besides, you keep ignoring this part of my argument:

natty_dread wrote:No matter how select a group you are a member of, it doesn't matter. I haven't seen even the very best of the best of mapmakers make a single map that would have become what it is without feedback from the foundry community.

So you see it doesn't matter that they're "proven mapmakers" or whatever (if they are...), when they lack the proper feedback and process of the foundry, there's no real quality control. Just look at the Easter & christmas maps. They do not look good.

natty_dread wrote: Just look at the Easter & christmas maps. They do not look good.

I have to disagree to a tad bit here. They look good, but they could look so much better.

What map? None of the surprise maps have been through the foundry. I don't know what you're talking about.

The East Asia revamp.

But how do we decide who are these people who "know what they're doing"? When the whole thing is done behind closed doors...

The CA's, and... actually I don't know, how do you become a CA?

No matter how select a group you are a member of, it doesn't matter. I haven't seen even the very best of the best of mapmakers make a single map that would have become what it is without feedback from the foundry community.

I guess here we just have a fundamental difference of opinion. You seem to view the foundry process as the only way, well or the best way really. Sure I agree that for most people especially when they're volunteers it does serve to improve their work, but I don't view this as an inherent truth for all maps and map makers. Do you think that it was the pope's nit picks and micro management that made the Sistine chapel great? Or how about the impressionist painters? Do you think their work would have been better if they listened to their peers and "painted things right rather than all splotchy". What I mean is that I don't adhere to the idea that "The customer is always right" and that the voice of 1 artist, 1 man's vision, can have far more weight to it when it hasn't already been picked apart by the general public by the time it hits the ground.

The Bison King wrote:The East Asia revamp.

We weren't talking about that here.

The Bison King wrote:The CA's, and... actually I don't know, how do you become a CA?

Iancanton is one of the best CA:s, yet he's never made a map himself.

Being a CA is not equal to mapmaking prowess.

Besides, some of the latest "surprise" maps were made by the Entertainment team with no input from the CA:s or anyone from the foundry. How is that reasonable in any way?

The Bison King wrote:I guess here we just have a fundamental difference of opinion. You seem to view the foundry process as the only way, well or the best way really. Sure I agree that for most people especially when they're volunteers it does serve to improve their work, but I don't view this as an inherent truth for all maps and map makers.

Well, the evidence is on my side I'm afraid. Look at any surprise map, the majority of them are of inferior quality to the average foundry map.

For another point, look at the maps that were made by lack's friend demonart before the foundry existed. Far east (the old one) being one. USA is another. Those are examples of maps made by a (supposedly) "professional designer" without feedback or input from a peer-review system like the foundry.

The fact that mapmakers are volunteers has nothing to do with anything. Many people here who make maps are very skilled and experienced at both graphics and gameplay design. Look at Dim or Kabanellas, they create very good looking maps, most with great gameplay. Yet, even they need the input from the foundry process to perfect their work.

If you show me one mapmaker who has made a map that required no further improving after the first draft, then we can just appoint that person to create all the behind-the-scenes maps. Until then, the foundry process should be involved in creating them.

The Bison King wrote:Do you think that it was the pope's nit picks and micro management that made the Sistine chapel great? Or how about the impressionist painters?

That's totally irrelevant. You seem to think of mapmaking as an art where you can freely express yourself. When in fact it is more of a collaborative process. Sure, there are some parts where you do get to explore your artistic skills, but those need to be subservient to the larger process.

A painter, or any artist, can easily just follow his own vision and create what he wants according to his own views. There's no such thing as "bad" when it comes to art, and any piece of art can be argued to have intrinsic value in that it is an expression of something the artist wants to express. The same is not true for mapmaking... we do have standards to uphold, and we have a peer-review process in place to ensure those standards are upheld. We don't allow anyone to just create anything they want simply to let them express themselves. Like said... mapmaking is not a right.

natty_dread wrote:

The Bison King wrote:The East Asia revamp.

We weren't talking about that here.

Didn't this whole discussion start as a result of the East Asia Revamp. I thought Dim or someone got mad about then in the thread, and then this whole thread got started. Or was that un-related?

Iancanton is one of the best CA:s, yet he's never made a map himself.

That's interesting. Interesting point man.

Well, the evidence is on my side I'm afraid. Look at any surprise map, the majority of them are of inferior quality to the average foundry map.

True but they're usually just seasonal treats that aren't up all year round any way. They're not supposed to blow minds.

For another point, look at the maps that were made by lack's friend demonart before the foundry existed. Far east (the old one) being one. USA is another. Those are examples of maps made by a (supposedly) "professional designer" without feedback or input from a peer-review system like the foundry.

Agreed those maps are pretty bad. However there are a lot of factors besides the lack of a peer review systems that set those apart. There was nothing else to compare them too at the time. Also I don't know much about this Demonart guy but maybe he just wasn't that good. A lot of professionals just aren't.

The fact that mapmakers are volunteers has nothing to do with anything. Many people here who make maps are very skilled and experienced at both graphics and gameplay design. Look at Dim or Kabanellas, they create very good looking maps, most with great gameplay. Yet, even they need the input from the foundry process to perfect their work.

Well sure I agree with that. I more meant like, rookie inexperienced map makers.

That's totally irrelevant. You seem to think of mapmaking as an art where you can freely express yourself. When in fact it is more of a collaborative process. Sure, there are some parts where you do get to explore your artistic skills, but those need to be subservient to the larger process.

Ugh, Disagree! not with the idea that there are differences between creating functional playable maps and a lovely painting but with the things you site as inherent that aren't. Specifically you say "When in fact it is more of a collaborative process" That's ONLY because we DECIDED that it is. Sure there are benefits to the collaborative process. I'm pro foundry to be sure, I think it's a good thing. I agree with you that we are better off using the foundry. I'm just trying to get you to admit that there are in fact other ways.

The same is not true for mapmaking... we do have standards to uphold, and we have a peer-review process in place to ensure those standards are upheld. We don't allow anyone to just create anything they want simply to let them express themselves. Like said... mapmaking is not a right.

Again the peer-review process was created, after the fact. (Damn it now I am arguing the philosophical... eh sort of) The standards are there because we created standards, and there are more than one way to reach those standards, than just the peer review process. A good artist can review his own work to those standards and meet them on his own terms.

The Bison King wrote:

natty_dread wrote:

The Bison King wrote:The East Asia revamp.

We weren't talking about that here.

Didn't this whole discussion start as a result of the East Asia Revamp. I thought Dim or someone got mad about then in the thread, and then this whole thread got started. Or was that un-related?

it's explained in the first post:

The reason of this topic is the little argumentation I had with natty (mate, lately we fight for everything ) on the asia touch up thread. But in reality it's some time I hear about people annoyed by this type of maps. So, apart for that topic, in which it wasn't my intention try to circumvent the foundry process, but just try to the players of this site something better to play than what we have now, what are your thoughts about these special maps?

so natty complained about the asia touch-up and as a result tnb80 started this thread to talk about secret maps in general.

to sum it up in a few short words.
secret map making is bad because:
1. the final result is of inferior quality (both gameplay and graphics)
2. circumventing the foundry process is like taking a piss on all the other map makers that push their maps forward and work with feedback for 3-6 months.

The Bison King wrote:True but they're usually just seasonal treats that aren't up all year round any way. They're not supposed to blow minds.

They should be blowing minds. Minds are waiting to be blown, and we don't just want to leave them hanging.

The Bison King wrote:Also I don't know much about this Demonart guy but maybe he just wasn't that good. A lot of professionals just aren't.

My point exactly.

The Bison King wrote:Ugh, Disagree! not with the idea that there are differences between creating functional playable maps and a lovely painting but with the things you site as inherent that aren't. Specifically you say "When in fact it is more of a collaborative process" That's ONLY because we DECIDED that it is. Sure there are benefits to the collaborative process. I'm pro foundry to be sure, I think it's a good thing. I agree with you that we are better off using the foundry. I'm just trying to get you to admit that there are in fact other ways.

Yeah, there are other ways, and we can see how well those work out in practice. Go look at landgrab, where anyone can express themselves freely as a mapmaker, and compare the quality...

The Bison King wrote:Again the peer-review process was created, after the fact.

Peer-review processes are the best way to find & fix flaws in any work. They are a tried and true method, even the scientific method uses a peer-review process - any study that is published needs to be reviewed by peers... that's because it's been found that a peer-review process simply works.

So we're in good company.

The maps made by demonart weren't just made before the foundry existed, they were made before cc existed (they were the only three maps available when the site started).

Personally I think that surprise - limited edition - maps are a good thing for the site in general. You can say that I'm biassed, but for those whom the foundry team deem worthy, why shouldn't they (the elite) be allowed some freedom for a special occasion?

MrBenn wrote:The maps made by demonart weren't just made before the foundry existed, they were made before cc existed (they were the only three maps available when the site started).

The point is, those maps were made without the same process of quality control that most maps go through. And it shows.

MrBenn wrote:Personally I think that surprise - limited edition - maps are a good thing for the site in general. You can say that I'm biassed, but for those whom the foundry team deem worthy, why shouldn't they (the elite) be allowed some freedom for a special occasion?

Because no matter how elite you are, without the feedback and quality control from the foundry process, the quality of your work suffers. This is evident from the difference in quality (both graphical and gameplay balance) of most surprise maps.

natty_dread wrote:Because no matter how elite you are, without the feedback and quality control from the foundry process, the quality of your work suffers. This is evident from the difference in quality (both graphical and gameplay balance) of most surprise maps.

I agree with that, CC got some very high skilled map makers, and when posted new drafts, its so high quality that they "almost" are to play right away, but that "almost" meens that ohter new fresh eyes gets a look at it, and changes are goin to happen for satisfying the community, yet the surprise suffers some. Still its a small core using the foundry progress and follows a map from first dash to the live stage. The surprise effect will still hit the most. So I personal think dragging those "event" map through the foundry will be more benefitting than the opposite.

I think in a somehow combined solution. Special maps are supposed to be playable only in special occasions, and the purpose is to surprise, so that's why those maps are developed behind the scenes. But after the initial release, it should be put in a public domain, in a regular map thread where it can be discussed and reviewed as the regular maps, so the next time is playable could it be a revamped version of the special map. Just saying.

Falkomagno wrote:I think in a somehow combined solution. Special maps are supposed to be playable only in special occasions, and the purpose is to surprise, so that's why those maps are developed behind the scenes. But after the initial release, it should be put in a public domain, in a regular map thread where it can be discussed and reviewed as the regular maps, so the next time is playable could it be a revamped version of the special map. Just saying.

some "special" maps are so flawed and crappy they'd need a complete gameplay redesign. i doubt any of the "special" map makers would be willing to scratch all their work and start a normal foundry process.
on top of that some of the "special" map makers probably don't even have enough skill to see a map done the right way.

I havent read this entire thread, maybe a page or 2 combine from various post throughout the thread. I am by no means a foundry regular and have only been checking it over the last 2 days after i posted a map idea of my own.

Anyway to the point of my post, I am a pretty regular cc user by most standards. I play for a clan, play games i find fun, and occasionally browse and contribute to the forums time permitting. In this I feel i can offer a valuable insight of someone who is not a foundry member into this discussion. I can say without a doubt that even if you develop special maps in the open most players will not come to check them before they are released for the holiday. On top of that, even if the maps weren't a surprise, I and i think i speak for many others would rather a balanced map game-play wise than to be surprised with the holiday map. There seems to be a lot of emphasis on surprising people with these new maps every holiday but I don't really think the community cares all that much about the surprise, just about the ability to play a limited edition map.


Now if the foundry is to keep making secret maps

MrBenn wrote:Personally I think that surprise - limited edition - maps are a good thing for the site in general. You can say that I'm biassed, but for those whom the foundry team deem worthy, why shouldn't they (the elite) be allowed some freedom for a special occasion?

To me it seems arbitrary who the foundry deem worthy of such a privilege. How can natty someone with 10 medals for making maps not be part of the process when others who surely have less are? I feel being all inclusive of any foundry regulars is a far better solution and ensures everyone feels like they are being treated fairly. As a student in business with a concentration in leadership, I have read a fair amount of research and text on In Group vs Out group and every single piece of literature says leaders should try to minimize this within an organization. If you take the foundry as an organization there is not much more you can do to create an in group and out group than what is currently being done. Clearly it has causes one map maker to throw in the towel which likely means more are annoyed as well. If you wish to keep making secret maps, i really dont think anyone from the community cares, but you should certainly be accepting of any foundry regulars who wish to be part of the process.

The secret maps aren't made by the foundry, they're made by the entertainment team or some other admin's favorite special group... you're barking at the wrong tree ljex

natty dread wrote:The secret maps aren't made by the foundry, they're made by the entertainment team or some other admin's favorite special group... you're barking at the wrong tree ljex

i may not know all the specifics but the main ideas are still the same regardless of who makes these private maps.

even if map makers of other foundry regulars would be invited to make a secret map it would still be a bad situation.
i was asked to make one of those secret maps and i turned it down. the mere idea of short-circuiting the normal foundry process is an offence towards all map makers.
every map maker has to work for months on end nitpicking every single detail and catering to the need of every person that comes and posts in his thread. it's a process which often includes frustration, lots of work but also lots of boring times.
and then you have the special map makers who breeze in and presto whatever they do is considered solid gold.
in my opinion every person that makes or contributes to the making of a secret special map is an insult to the hardworking map makers.

what's even worse is when one on the regular mapmakers gets sucked in this process and then he comes up with excuses like:
"if it weren't for me it would have been somebody else", "it's better me than some guy from the entertainment team who knows nothing about maps"

a moral backbone is a rarity in real life so i can understand how on the internet it can be even rarer. the truth is that when it comes to complaining about the secret maps, most of the map makers and the foundry regulars are quick to bitch and moan. but given the opportunity to jump ship and take part in the making of a secret map they're eager to do it. it's sad but i guess it's normal.