Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby natty dread on Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:30 am

The Bison King wrote:True but they're usually just seasonal treats that aren't up all year round any way. They're not supposed to blow minds.


They should be blowing minds. Minds are waiting to be blown, and we don't just want to leave them hanging.

The Bison King wrote:Also I don't know much about this Demonart guy but maybe he just wasn't that good. A lot of professionals just aren't.


My point exactly.

The Bison King wrote:Ugh, Disagree! not with the idea that there are differences between creating functional playable maps and a lovely painting but with the things you site as inherent that aren't. Specifically you say "When in fact it is more of a collaborative process" That's ONLY because we DECIDED that it is. Sure there are benefits to the collaborative process. I'm pro foundry to be sure, I think it's a good thing. I agree with you that we are better off using the foundry. I'm just trying to get you to admit that there are in fact other ways.


Yeah, there are other ways, and we can see how well those work out in practice. Go look at landgrab, where anyone can express themselves freely as a mapmaker, and compare the quality...

The Bison King wrote:Again the peer-review process was created, after the fact.


Peer-review processes are the best way to find & fix flaws in any work. They are a tried and true method, even the scientific method uses a peer-review process - any study that is published needs to be reviewed by peers... that's because it's been found that a peer-review process simply works.

So we're in good company.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby MrBenn on Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:46 pm

The maps made by demonart weren't just made before the foundry existed, they were made before cc existed (they were the only three maps available when the site started).

Personally I think that surprise - limited edition - maps are a good thing for the site in general. You can say that I'm biassed, but for those whom the foundry team deem worthy, why shouldn't they (the elite) be allowed some freedom for a special occasion?
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby natty dread on Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:10 pm

MrBenn wrote:The maps made by demonart weren't just made before the foundry existed, they were made before cc existed (they were the only three maps available when the site started).


The point is, those maps were made without the same process of quality control that most maps go through. And it shows.

MrBenn wrote:Personally I think that surprise - limited edition - maps are a good thing for the site in general. You can say that I'm biassed, but for those whom the foundry team deem worthy, why shouldn't they (the elite) be allowed some freedom for a special occasion?


Because no matter how elite you are, without the feedback and quality control from the foundry process, the quality of your work suffers. This is evident from the difference in quality (both graphical and gameplay balance) of most surprise maps.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby Flapcake on Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:45 am

natty_dread wrote:Because no matter how elite you are, without the feedback and quality control from the foundry process, the quality of your work suffers. This is evident from the difference in quality (both graphical and gameplay balance) of most surprise maps.



I agree with that, CC got some very high skilled map makers, and when posted new drafts, its so high quality that they "almost" are to play right away, but that "almost" meens that ohter new fresh eyes gets a look at it, and changes are goin to happen for satisfying the community, yet the surprise suffers some. Still its a small core using the foundry progress and follows a map from first dash to the live stage. The surprise effect will still hit the most. So I personal think dragging those "event" map through the foundry will be more benefitting than the opposite.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby Falkomagno on Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:26 pm

I think in a somehow combined solution. Special maps are supposed to be playable only in special occasions, and the purpose is to surprise, so that's why those maps are developed behind the scenes. But after the initial release, it should be put in a public domain, in a regular map thread where it can be discussed and reviewed as the regular maps, so the next time is playable could it be a revamped version of the special map. Just saying.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby DiM on Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:48 pm

Falkomagno wrote:I think in a somehow combined solution. Special maps are supposed to be playable only in special occasions, and the purpose is to surprise, so that's why those maps are developed behind the scenes. But after the initial release, it should be put in a public domain, in a regular map thread where it can be discussed and reviewed as the regular maps, so the next time is playable could it be a revamped version of the special map. Just saying.



some "special" maps are so flawed and crappy they'd need a complete gameplay redesign. i doubt any of the "special" map makers would be willing to scratch all their work and start a normal foundry process.
on top of that some of the "special" map makers probably don't even have enough skill to see a map done the right way. :roll:
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby ljex on Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:20 pm

I havent read this entire thread, maybe a page or 2 combine from various post throughout the thread. I am by no means a foundry regular and have only been checking it over the last 2 days after i posted a map idea of my own.

Anyway to the point of my post, I am a pretty regular cc user by most standards. I play for a clan, play games i find fun, and occasionally browse and contribute to the forums time permitting. In this I feel i can offer a valuable insight of someone who is not a foundry member into this discussion. I can say without a doubt that even if you develop special maps in the open most players will not come to check them before they are released for the holiday. On top of that, even if the maps weren't a surprise, I and i think i speak for many others would rather a balanced map game-play wise than to be surprised with the holiday map. There seems to be a lot of emphasis on surprising people with these new maps every holiday but I don't really think the community cares all that much about the surprise, just about the ability to play a limited edition map.


Now if the foundry is to keep making secret maps

MrBenn wrote:Personally I think that surprise - limited edition - maps are a good thing for the site in general. You can say that I'm biassed, but for those whom the foundry team deem worthy, why shouldn't they (the elite) be allowed some freedom for a special occasion?


To me it seems arbitrary who the foundry deem worthy of such a privilege. How can natty someone with 10 medals for making maps not be part of the process when others who surely have less are? I feel being all inclusive of any foundry regulars is a far better solution and ensures everyone feels like they are being treated fairly. As a student in business with a concentration in leadership, I have read a fair amount of research and text on In Group vs Out group and every single piece of literature says leaders should try to minimize this within an organization. If you take the foundry as an organization there is not much more you can do to create an in group and out group than what is currently being done. Clearly it has causes one map maker to throw in the towel which likely means more are annoyed as well. If you wish to keep making secret maps, i really dont think anyone from the community cares, but you should certainly be accepting of any foundry regulars who wish to be part of the process.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby natty dread on Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:00 pm

The secret maps aren't made by the foundry, they're made by the entertainment team or some other admin's favorite special group... you're barking at the wrong tree ljex
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby ljex on Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:14 pm

natty dread wrote:The secret maps aren't made by the foundry, they're made by the entertainment team or some other admin's favorite special group... you're barking at the wrong tree ljex


i may not know all the specifics but the main ideas are still the same regardless of who makes these private maps.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby DiM on Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:42 am

even if map makers of other foundry regulars would be invited to make a secret map it would still be a bad situation.
i was asked to make one of those secret maps and i turned it down. the mere idea of short-circuiting the normal foundry process is an offence towards all map makers.
every map maker has to work for months on end nitpicking every single detail and catering to the need of every person that comes and posts in his thread. it's a process which often includes frustration, lots of work but also lots of boring times.
and then you have the special map makers who breeze in and presto whatever they do is considered solid gold.
in my opinion every person that makes or contributes to the making of a secret special map is an insult to the hardworking map makers.

what's even worse is when one on the regular mapmakers gets sucked in this process and then he comes up with excuses like:
"if it weren't for me it would have been somebody else", "it's better me than some guy from the entertainment team who knows nothing about maps"

a moral backbone is a rarity in real life so i can understand how on the internet it can be even rarer. the truth is that when it comes to complaining about the secret maps, most of the map makers and the foundry regulars are quick to bitch and moan. but given the opportunity to jump ship and take part in the making of a secret map they're eager to do it. it's sad but i guess it's normal.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby RjBeals on Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:02 pm

But once you prove yourself with some consistent maps, you should be able to bypass the year long wait in the foundry and bang out a good "secret" map that most of the CC site will enjoy. I don't think it's an offence to the whole foundry. It's just a natural evolution. Once you reach a certain skill level, you don't need to wait a year to make a map.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby DiM on Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:54 am

RjBeals wrote:But once you prove yourself with some consistent maps, you should be able to bypass the year long wait in the foundry and bang out a good "secret" map that most of the CC site will enjoy. I don't think it's an offence to the whole foundry. It's just a natural evolution.


what? that's absurd. it's not evolution. it's bullshit.
just because a map maker has already made X maps he still should not be allowed to make a secret map.
perfect example is oaktown. haye he made some great maps, let's let him do a secret one. and out came one of the worst maps on this site. st pattricks day map. the graphics are horrendous but that's nothing compared to the shitty gameplay.

RjBeals wrote: Once you reach a certain skill level, you don't need to wait a year to make a map.


this i agree with. a very good map in both graphics as well as gameplay can be done in a matter of days. a week tops. all you need for this is a supercharged foundry taken to an extreme speed. a foundry where each day dozens of people come and give pertinent feedback.
riht now the main reason for the slow process is not the skill of the map makers but rather the lack of feedback and the slowness of the CAs.
if somebody with no graphic or xml knowledge comes to the foundry and wants to make a map he'll have time to learn photoshop, become great at it, learn the xml and still manage to be bored and annoyed by the lack of pace in the foundry.

it can take up to 2-3 months for a CA to come and look at your map and see if it's worthy of a badge. and if it's not it will probably be 1-2 more months before he comes again even if you made all the corrections he asked for the very next day.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:12 am

DiM wrote:it can take up to 2-3 months for a CA to come and look at your map and see if it's worthy of a badge. and if it's not it will probably be 1-2 more months before he comes again even if you made all the corrections he asked for the very next day.


I hope you are deliberately exaggerating, if not, in my opinion is bullshit.
Finally you're singing a song that we've already listen many times and given an answer.
We are volunteers, not paid staff. If you don't like how we do things, feel free to send a PM to Andy and ask him to change us all....although I'm wondering how many people you'll find to replace us! Put the blue shoes for some time and you'll see how it's difficult to do this without work for free for the site if you have to follow the demand of some people, when for us is a sort of "hobby", a thing we do because we like to do it, because we love this place and we care about the people who spend hours to produce a map for almost nothing more than play it!
I bet you will leave after 3 months. We are not here 24/7 and the way you are proposing "a CA should give me an answer after 5 mins i posted" will never be used. Mapmakers have a month to provide an update, this because the site and the CAs know that this is not a job but a voluntary process.....so since the CAs role is also a volunteer thing, why we should have a different treatment? We have lifes to live, that's all...I won't reply, give an answer on this thing again!

Now, I understand what you're trying to do....but if spread negativity is the only thing that few people has decided to do, please stop here. Let me work to complete what I'm trying to do and then please try to work together to find a better solution like I did here (Tempora mutantur et nos in illis!). That thing will cost to me time, not paid time, but I'll do it for you all. And for now the lack of collaboration, the lack of willingness to participate is coming just from one side imo, and it's not blue colored. So before to point your finger against CAs all time, ask yourself: "If I really care about the foundry, if the foundry is not the place I would like to see, if I would ssee things change...then what I'm really doing to make it a better place now that someone has given to me an occasion to speak?"

Then, if you decide to not take part of this occasion, I have to say just a thing: "Now shut up!"
DiM, sometimes I'm disappointed to read your post about me and my team, specially because you can read more than others and you can see how much I work/take defense of the foundry people, try to have things for them, etc etc....really, sometimes I don't understand what're trying to do/demonstrate.

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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby DiM on Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:13 am

thenobodies80 wrote:
DiM wrote:it can take up to 2-3 months for a CA to come and look at your map and see if it's worthy of a badge. and if it's not it will probably be 1-2 more months before he comes again even if you made all the corrections he asked for the very next day.


I hope you are deliberately exaggerating, if not, in my opinion is bullshit.


sadly i'm not exaggerating
jan 12th, clash of kings gets a draft stamp and is moved to the main foundry.
i work on the map receive feedback do several updates and 6 weeks later isaiah tells me he's satisfied with the map and he'll get the gameplay CA to take a look at the map.
2 more moths pass and that CA still hasn't arrived to look at the map, nor has any other CA for that matter. the graphics are also pretty much set with nothing but minor nitpickings for the last few months.
so how exactly am i exaggerating?

and don't give me that whole "i'm a volunteer doing unpaid work" crap.
i'm also a volunteer and when i'm asked to work on something i work on it in a matter of hours or days not weeks or months.
when gilligan comes to me asking for banners logos or dice i provide them as fast as possible otherwise the events would not take place. when i'm asked to run a tourney i make sure new games start as soon as the old ones are over. whenever i was asked to provide something i did it in no more than a few days. sometimes it was even a few hours.
and i have a wife, a kid, a night job and my little business i supervise during the day so it's not like i'm on constant vacation with 24/7 free time.
i'm not demanding CAs to respond in a matter of minutes, i never said that, but 2 months is a really long time. analyzing a map takes what? 30 minutes? one hour? 2 hours? don't tell me in 2 months no CA found enough time to look at my map and review it. especially when another CA came and said the map will be reviewed so that kinda makes you think the map is put on some sort of list and it's near the top of the priorities.

i'm not trying to spread negativity, i'm simply trying to draw attention to one of the problems in the foundry. and that is the CAs aren't really posting that much or paying attention to maps as much as needed.
you keep saying you're trying to speed up the process of map making. that spending 6-9 months on a map is unacceptable and yet there are maps who are standing idly where nobody has anything left to comment cause they're pretty much ready and yet no CA is coming to move that map forward.

i'm not a CA and yet i used to post more than ALL the CAs COMBINED. before i decided the foundry ain't worth it anymore i gave more feedback to ongoing map projects than all the CAs put together and that's when there were 6 or 7 of you guys. so don't tell me i wouldn't resist for 3 months. you've had CAs with less than 10 posts per month, and even now they average at less than 1 foundry post per day. and it's not like they're posting 10 page long essays, it's 2-3 lines of text in each post, or even less.
seriously, if you don't have the time to contribute more then don't volunteer for this. sure, you're intentions are appreciated but good intentions aren't enough.
also, i've never said anything wrong about you. in fact last i recall i had nothing but praises for you and isaiah because of the whole cartographers group you 2 work the most. i also know your crusade in the backstage and i've supported it whenever i could. but this has nothing to do with that. just because i see you working for the general interest of the foundry doesn't mean that i can't say anything bad if it's true. and the fact is that i was told a gameplay review is coming and 2 months later nothing happened. this is a fact. it's not a subjective opinion it's not something open to interpretation. it's just a simple fact. the clash of kings map is not stalled by lack of updates, or lack of feedback it is stalled by lack of involvement from the CAs. this should NEVER happen. the CAs job is to help all maps move on the right track and progress as fast and as smoothly as possible not to stall them and make everybody lose interest.

you say you found a solution or at least the means to finding a solution. 10 days ago you talked about a group for mapmakers to debate and come up with methods to improve the foundry process. while i'd oppose to the secrecy of such a group i am willing to join and try to help. but...where's that group? what happened to it? did the project die before it even started?

PS: this whole post contains more words than all the combined posts of some CAs in the past few weeks.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby ManBungalow on Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:32 am

I haven't read most of this thread, but one concern I'd have with developing special maps in the main foundry is the rush to get it finished before whichever event it's designed for. Or, as stated in the original post, it may only be finished for the event a year later.

Maybe the foundry should develop real maps for Christmas and Easter* made available all year round, just like we have a permanent Halloween map which is used in special events regardless ?

*I'm not saying it's the fault of the developers of these two maps, just that they were designed for non-standard gameplay which doesn't really work out
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:37 am

The group won't be secret and like I said in that announcement there're just 2 requirements for it since we're not supposed to discuss there about random things but we need to keep it productive.
Just you can't find it because it's a group ad hoc for a temporary project so you need just to send me a pm to have access to it, once I have at least a minimum number of people to give a real meaning to this project I would be happy to add all people.
And jJust to give you some numbers, right now I have ONLY 3 non CAs interested!

But ok, you're right the info it's a bit hidden right now. I'll give to it more evidence, I'll start a topic in a way it's more visible from everywhere in the foundry.

P.s. About the 2 months lack of feedback, I'll check the dates later, but if you're saying the truth, you're right this shouldn't be happen. Must be said we have a small group of people right now, I'm trying to expand the team but you know it needs time, because the last thing we need are the "wanna be", moreover mapmaking requires a bit of knowledge, it's not just move threads... ;)

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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby DiM on Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:42 am

ManBungalow wrote:Maybe the foundry should develop real maps for Christmas and Easter* made available all year round, just like we have a permanent Halloween map which is used in special events regardless ?


the permanent halloween map exists merely because cairnswk thought about it before any secret map could be developed. if this would have happened nowadays cairnswk would probably be told something like: "sorry but you'll have to discontinue work on your halloween map. we plan on making a secret halloween map ourselves so yours can't exist" :lol:
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby DiM on Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:47 am

thenobodies80 wrote:The group won't be secret and like I said in that announcement there're just 2 requirements for it since we're not supposed to discuss there about random things but we need to keep it productive.
Just you can't find it because it's a group ad hoc for a temporary project so you need just to send me a pm to have access to it, once I have at least a minimum number of people to give a real meaning to this project I would be happy to add all people.
And jJust to give you some numbers, right now I have ONLY 3 non CAs interested!

But ok, you're right the info it's a bit hidden right now. I'll give to it more evidence, I'll start a topic in a way it's more visible from everywhere in the foundry.


what the...? how the...?
i didn't know a pm needs to be sent. is there a secret handshake i should know, too? :lol:
it's no wonder people aren't flocking to that group if the method of gaining access is a close guarded secret :P
consider me interested even if i'm not sending you a pm.

thenobodies80 wrote:P.s. About the 2 months lack of feedback, I'll check the dates later, but if you're saying the truth, you're right this shouldn't be happen.


12th jan - got draft stamp and was moved to main foundry
24th feb - isaiah said things are looking balanced and he'll get iancanton to check the map.
28th apr - nobody bothered to check the map.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby natty dread on Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:56 am

DiM wrote:i'm not trying to spread negativity, i'm simply trying to draw attention to one of the problems in the foundry. and that is the CAs aren't really posting that much or paying attention to maps as much as needed.
you keep saying you're trying to speed up the process of map making. that spending 6-9 months on a map is unacceptable and yet there are maps who are standing idly where nobody has anything left to comment cause they're pretty much ready and yet no CA is coming to move that map forward.

i'm not a CA and yet i used to post more than ALL the CAs COMBINED.


Hey, me too! Want to start a club? We can call it "Non-CA:s who used to post more than CA:s".

But see, the thing is, the admins aren't going to let anyone who is actually invested in the foundry to become a CA. That would interfere with their plans to phase out the foundry. And mark my words, that's what is going to happen. One day lack will just up and close the foundry forums, and announce that all the new maps will be made by a secret group of spineless yes-men who know nothing about map design...

DiM wrote:
ManBungalow wrote:Maybe the foundry should develop real maps for Christmas and Easter* made available all year round, just like we have a permanent Halloween map which is used in special events regardless ?


the permanent halloween map exists merely because cairnswk thought about it before any secret map could be developed. if this would have happened nowadays cairnswk would probably be told something like: "sorry but you'll have to discontinue work on your halloween map. we plan on making a secret halloween map ourselves so yours can't exist" :lol:


This is so true. Also, the same applies for the classic map.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby DiM on Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:30 am

natty dread wrote:But see, the thing is, the admins aren't going to let anyone who is actually invested in the foundry to become a CA.


i doubt this. nobody is stopping anybody from applying to a CA position and if the aplication comes from a veteran map maker i'm pretty sure he'll be accepted.
now i have never applied for such a position because as a mapmaker myself i wouldn't want people to think my maps are being favoured just because i'm part of the CAs.

also i don't think lack will ever close down the foundry. it's a source of free income for him, so why would he do it?
worst case scenario that he continues to ignore the foundry, not deliver any updates for the xml, allow more secret maps to be made and eventually all map makers will leave and the foundry will slowly die.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby squishyg on Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:26 am

When I was managing social media for Conquer Club I created a team of volunteers that suggested topics and worked closely with me to ensure that all of CC was being represented. That team had a private, hidden usergroup where we could share ideas. The opportunity was open to everyone on CC and I believe everyone who applied I deemed qualified.

Just like any volunteer team, some people got extremely involved while others lost interest, but it was a successful endeavor.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby ManBungalow on Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:13 pm

squishyg wrote:When I was managing social media for Conquer Club I created a team of volunteers that suggested topics and worked closely with me to ensure that all of CC was being represented. That team had a private, hidden usergroup where we could share ideas. The opportunity was open to everyone on CC and I believe everyone who applied I deemed qualified.

Just like any volunteer team, some people got extremely involved while others lost interest, but it was a successful endeavor.

Sam threw me off the social media team with no indication or justification.

That is all.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby Viceroy63 on Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:06 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:
Do you think all maps must go throught the foundry even if it means destroy the surprise effect? or do you think it's fine as it is now? or again, do you think that maps can be developed behind the scenes on special occasions, but there should be a public topic to discuss and improve them anyway?

Please discuss
Nobodies


I just read all six pages of this thread and it reads like one of those paper back romance novels that you just can't put down because you have to see how it ends. :lol:

Personally, I hate surprises. Especially when they are embarrassing surprise parties where every one comes out of a dark room and just scares the hell out of you (SURPRIIISE!!!) risking a heart attack and all in the process. And I would also not enjoy very much playing a game for the first time and realizing the crappy play of it all. Probably why I stick with the classic map. ;)

Even though I haven't played on many different maps, although I can imagine that feeling, I would have to say that if the foundry is doing a fine job of creating well, enjoyable and playable maps then they should be the only resource for doing so. If there is some kind of problem in getting out the maps in a reasonable time limit then that should be the issue or an issue to deal with and not whether who should make the maps or not.

I believe that Dim and Natty Dread make an excellent point in the quality control issue, in that all the maps should go through a process of criticism and review. A map that just appears out of nowhere with crappy play is like a bad surprise party on a really bad hair day. Or worse, really bad sex in which you just can't get those invested 11 minutes of your life back. Oh sure, it's fine for the guy, right??? :lol:

If it takes a year to come out with a map for Christmas then start the process now. Don't wait until November to throw out some half hashed map that most people won't play anyways. Or worse will feel like suckers if they do. And if administration reserves the right to throw out "surprise" maps then they should at least come with a warning label. [Alert: You may find this map to be really SHITTY! You have been warned. Thank you and enjoy the game.] :lol:

So I think that all maps should go through foundry because nothing ruins the happy holiday season more than crappy game play on a crappy game map for a festive season. That is really no kind of a surprise at all. At least not in my game book.

I am just saying; If that is indeed what is happening?
Last edited by Viceroy63 on Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby natty dread on Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:53 pm

Viceroy63 wrote: Or worse, really bad sex in which you just can't get those invested 11 minutes of your life back. Oh sure, it's fine for the guy, right??? :lol:


11 minutes, wtf? If you're not going to f*ck for at least a half an hour why even bother getting out the lube and handcuffs...
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Re: Behind the scenes maps: what do you think?

Postby Viceroy63 on Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:03 am

:lol:
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