Decline in map standards.

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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby natty dread on Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:49 am

Actually, I did listen to what you said and I even gave a valid response to it. It's you who's not listening, the same way you were not listening when people gave you feedback when you were attempting to make maps here.

You see, any interaction is a two-way street. You can't just expect the other side to listen to your arguments if you're not willing to listen to theirs.
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby Gillipig on Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:09 am

I'm gonna have to agree with natty here. You can't just stick your head in the ground when someone says something you don't want to hear. Sometimes the truth is uncomfortable and the answers you're looking for might not help you get forward. On the other hand this is just a game so I can understand if you don't want approach it that seriously. But don't expect to have much success in the foundry with that attitude towards it.
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby BadgerJelly on Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:40 am

Gillipig wrote:I'm gonna have to agree with natty here. You can't just stick your head in the ground when someone says something you don't want to hear. Sometimes the truth is uncomfortable and the answers you're looking for might not help you get forward. On the other hand this is just a game so I can understand if you don't want approach it that seriously. But don't expect to have much success in the foundry with that attitude towards it.


:lol: =D>

Natty you were NOT the problem if thats why you are being defensive I don't know or CARE!

In the foundry I found it patronising and generally hostile. One or two people were VERY helpful but no one actually answered my question about base "Continent" values ... it doesn't even matter about who said what or who answered what ... I am saying there is a problem with the attitude to newcomers. I come here knowing little about the variety of what can be coded and with an idea in my head and I got almost nothing but derision and a cocky and childish response from people.

Because of this I am not willing to put time into making at map here at the moment so every here will miss out until I think the response I get next time will be a more friendly and patient.

I even offered maps to this site (Before I realised you had to put names on the territories here) and got ridiculed for that!? SERIOUSLY I am not the only problem here. Yeah I'm strong willed and opinionated but I encourage constructive criticism all the time and I am more than willing to listen to new ideas.

If you think what I am saying here is in some way negative then I'm sorry but I'm trying to answer your question as best I can to help the process in the foundry be a little more welcoming because I think that is where the core of your problem lies with any decline in map standards or lack of variety ... some people in my situation would leave this site and not even consider making a map here again and I have met a few so this isn't based on assumptions.

Lost count of how many times I have heard that people like CC and the players here but hate the Foundry.

Like I said there are 3 great maps close to release so the problem cannot be that big ... some more "basic" maps might help the site too? Just standard rules but well planned maps without having to worry about Auto-placement, Bombard etc.. (I love these options but the vast majority of player in my experience play small quick games in RT and there is not a huge choice out there atm.

Anyway said my bit take it or leave it and GL with whatever it is you do here in the future.
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby natty dread on Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:40 pm

BadgerJelly wrote:In the foundry I found it patronising and generally hostile.


Well, that's unfortunate that you feel that way. We can't take responsibility how everyone acts, since everyone is free to post in the foundry. However you do need a "thick skin" in the foundry... sometimes the answer is not what you want to hear but you should probably listen to it anyway.

BadgerJelly wrote:One or two people were VERY helpful but no one actually answered my question about base "Continent" values ...


Well that's just it. Your map ideas had more fundamental problems than continent values, and the way I recall it people told you repeatedly what those were and what exactly were the problems you needed to fix. There's no point in tweaking the bonus values if the underlying idea, the concept of the map, needs work.

Seems to me that the problem you have is that you didn't get the feedback you wanted to hear - instead you got the feedback you needed but were not willing to follow it...

Like it or not, mapmaking is not a right in CC - the foundry is not a playpen where you get to do whatever you want with your maps, and develop them in your own way and do what you please with them. The rules and guidelines of the foundry need to be followed, and maybe that's why you got frustrated - maybe you're used to the more free atmosphere of other sites that allow anyone to make whatever map they want, so the structured environment of the foundry where people tell you that you need to address this or that problem instead of worrying about this or that thing is a turn off for you. If so, that's unfortunate, and I know this is going to sound harsh to you, but we don't need mapmakers who can't follow the rules of the foundry.
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby BadgerJelly on Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:36 am

It doesn't bother me personally just trying to help ...

Continue to say I am wrong if it makes you feel better mate I don't mind at all. Just posted here because I saw the thread and thought my input might help people out on the site. In the future I'll just keep my opinions to myself and let you tell each other what is wrong rather than listening to an outside perspective.

GL :D
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:56 am

The last page and half is totally OFF TOPIC. Stop now, if you want to discuss about welcome new mapmakers, start a topic for that. =;

Back on the original discussion, koontz asked what do you think about this:

It has been said, and many agree with it, that the standards within the map making community for conquer club has declined over the past year or two. If, and this is a big if, is this true, and who is to blame for it and what can be done about it.
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:58 am

Thanks nobodies. Just to let you all know, the article has been written and is in the next dispatch. I have tried not to offend anyone.
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby DiM on Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:53 pm

koontz1973 wrote:Thanks nobodies. Just to let you all know, the article has been written and is in the next dispatch. I have tried not to offend anyone.



i am offended. :mrgreen:
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby thehippo8 on Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:01 pm

DiM wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:Thanks nobodies. Just to let you all know, the article has been written and is in the next dispatch. I have tried not to offend anyone.



i am offended. :mrgreen:


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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby BadgerJelly on Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:26 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:The last page and half is totally OFF TOPIC. Stop now, if you want to discuss about welcome new mapmakers, start a topic for that. =;

Back on the original discussion, koontz asked what do you think about this:

It has been said, and many agree with it, that the standards within the map making community for conquer club has declined over the past year or two. If, and this is a big if, is this true, and who is to blame for it and what can be done about it.


Now I know its you prepare yourself for a lambasting! :lol:

IT IS relevant to the topic mate. If potentially good artists are driven away then who knows what you're missing out on here ... you've even said so yourself in the past so you cannot have it both ways.

If he is referring purely about the STANDARD that is being let through then yeah its a bit more of a vague reference to the original thread. You know I am not here first and foremost on the site I'm else where and I have no reason to say anything here other than to help.

Maybe the standard has dropped (if it has!?), because there are less choices of maps to put through. Its all very well to say the standard should in theory stay the same but with 10 new maps in front of you or 5 what do you think the chances are in each case a better map will get through. Yeah more map makers more shit ... also more map makers more quailty.

Reply to this mapguy and I WILL NOT BITE and play your silly games ;)

I'm semi serious here so please don't get offended or I'll just laugh. btw you should try and get bigtardo to help Moon thingy ...

Enjoy guys! Its a great game love, peace and rapage to you all! LOVE YOU!! XX :P
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:45 am

BadgerJelly wrote:
Now I know its you prepare yourself for a lambasting! :lol:

IT IS relevant to the topic mate. If potentially good artists are driven away then who knows what you're missing out on here ... you've even said so yourself in the past so you cannot have it both ways.


The above confirm what natty was saying...you don't listen or better you listen just what you want to listen and if what you listen doesnt' match with your vision, you will continue on your way.
But tell what you want...that was and is OFFTOPIC anyway.
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby BadgerJelly on Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:13 pm

:lol: Whatever! :lol:
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby koontz1973 on Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:18 pm

BadgerJelly, please look at the first post and see what I have asked. The article is due out this week sometime so you can have a read of it. But if you do continue to post these supercilious comments, it may end up being a complete waste of my time as all anyone can see over the last page or two is you bitching about your experience in the foundry. Can I ask you now to please stop it and try to look at this from the way I have asked it.
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby greenoaks on Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:44 pm

i thought there was a decline in quality because of the defection to major command but i don't see that as a problem. at some point in time every great sports team will see one of their stars retire, become injured or move on. the replacement player is usually much younger and far less experienced.

we have that here. there are a lot of new recruits. building their knowledge/skill base. refining their map ideas/concepts. not everything they do will be awesome, or even great. being upset they are not immediately as good as the hall of famers of yesteryear is pointless. give them time, and feedback. they will grow. the nordic countries revamp is proof of that.

a few years from now it will be their time to move on. we will lament their loss, remember the good 'ol days and fret about the declining standards in the foundry.

life in the foundry will have come full circle.
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby natty dread on Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:16 pm

greenoaks wrote:a few years from now it will be their time to move on. we will lament their loss, remember the good 'ol days and fret about the declining standards in the foundry.


That's exactly what we should avoid, people moving away and not passing their skills to the new mapmakers.

And to avoid that we should get some more love & attention from the site admin. There's only so long people care to listen to promises that never come true...
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby RjBeals on Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:01 am

natty dread wrote:And to avoid that we should get some more love & attention from the site admin. There's only so long people care to listen to promises that never come true...


This is the main reason for us leaving... well, not making maps for cc that is. Clearly I'm still posting here.
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby thenobodies80 on Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:09 am

And it's a shame. I never was really part of your group...in fact you leaving was like a thunder from the sky for me. I just had the time to try the taste of the foundry but never had a chance to live it fully...:(
Anyway I'm not a guy who run away when difficulties or obstacles come...If I'm still here is because I really believe that there's a way to change the things. Hope a day I have the opportunity to send to you and few others a PM asking to "come back" (just spot here a bit more) because things are changed. I really miss some of you. :cry:
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby porkenbeans on Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:57 pm

BadgerJelly wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:The last page and half is totally OFF TOPIC. Stop now, if you want to discuss about welcome new mapmakers, start a topic for that. =;

Back on the original discussion, koontz asked what do you think about this:

It has been said, and many agree with it, that the standards within the map making community for conquer club has declined over the past year or two. If, and this is a big if, is this true, and who is to blame for it and what can be done about it.


Now I know its you prepare yourself for a lambasting! :lol:

IT IS relevant to the topic mate. If potentially good artists are driven away then who knows what you're missing out on here ... you've even said so yourself in the past so you cannot have it both ways.

If he is referring purely about the STANDARD that is being let through then yeah its a bit more of a vague reference to the original thread. You know I am not here first and foremost on the site I'm else where and I have no reason to say anything here other than to help.

Maybe the standard has dropped (if it has!?), because there are less choices of maps to put through. Its all very well to say the standard should in theory stay the same but with 10 new maps in front of you or 5 what do you think the chances are in each case a better map will get through. Yeah more map makers more shit ... also more map makers more quailty.

Reply to this mapguy and I WILL NOT BITE and play your silly games ;)

I'm semi serious here so please don't get offended or I'll just laugh. btw you should try and get bigtardo to help Moon thingy ...

Enjoy guys! Its a great game love, peace and rapage to you all! LOVE YOU!! XX :P
Do you think that thenobodies is mapguy ? :lol: Guess again.
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:48 am

no I'm not, I'm a bureaucrat or a politician.
But I know what you're....bye pb.
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby degaston on Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:29 am

koontz1973 wrote:
It has been said, and many agree with it, that the standards within the map making community for conquer club has declined over the past year or two. If, and this is a big if, is this true, and who is to blame for it and what can be done about it.


Sorry I missed this discussion when it was more relevant. I see you mentioned my map, Murder One (Clue), in your article and said that development stopped when the know how to carry on or community support fell away after time.

As I recall, the main reason I stopped working on it was because I felt that there was something important missing from the foundry. Namely, the ability to try out a map under development. This may not be necessary for a classic-style map with straightforward play, but for a relatively complicated map like mine that was going to use several of the special features, deciding on the "best" combination of territories, connections, neutrals, bonuses, objectives, etc. is not something that I think can be adequately resolved through a forum discussion.

There were a variety of conflicting suggestions made, and I would have like to have tried several of them to see what worked and what didn't. Unfortunately, the foundry requires that you choose one particular path, get the game-play for that path approved, tweak the graphics until everyone is happy, create the xml, and then finally you get a chance to actually play it. If the game-play turns out to be just so-so... oh well. You can tweak a few things here and there, but who in their right mind is going to go back and make major structural changes to the design of the game after doing all that graphics work? I suppose a few people may, but I don't have the patience for that kind of wasted effort. As a programmer, I know a poor development process when I see it.

Is it any wonder that the quality of maps has declined? Trying something unique carries too big a risk if the experiment fails. So map makers mostly have to stick with something that they know will work, and that everyone can understand without playing. The solution is obvious, fairly simple, and I've mentioned it before. Create a "sandbox" where anyone can plug in their jpg and xml map files and play a solitaire game or invite some friends for a no-points game. It shouldn't be very hard to modify the existing system to do this, but I don't have the time to create it from scratch.

So that's my 2¢. If it's ever implemented, I'd be happy to finish my map.
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:48 am

degaston, thanks for posting. I know your map was different, but that can be worked with within the foundry. Also, look at making major changes to a map in beta. It may need to be done. Rorke's Drift has had a major change to it, to the point that it was locked so all games can finish before being released again. Knights is also not standard GP and managed to get through happy. Changes and advice have to be the map makers resposabality, not he communities. Pick a path and stick to it. If you believe your way works, then say so and leave the doubters to doubt. You can always do minor tweeks later if proven wrong. But do bare in mind that some of the guys here are very good at there jobs and should be listened to. I wish and hope you come back with the map you made.

Your idea for a sandbox has been touted a lot over the years but I doubt we will ever see it. To many games would need to be played to find all the bugs. That is what beta is for. A lot of games can be made quickly and find those bugs. A map with 10 games in a sand box will never find all the bugs a map in beta will.

hope to see you back soon.
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby degaston on Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:16 am

Yes, it might be possible for me to get my map through the system. But my point was that the main reason map standards have declined (or at least not progressed very much) is because the system is severely flawed. Game-play and testing should be the primary focus from the start, and you shouldn't need to have a pretty map in order to test it. I understand that this is not likely to change, but if the main problem is ignored, then this thread (and others like it) are like:
Fat Guy: I can't run very fast.
Doctor/Spouse/Friends/Etc.: You need to lose some weight.
Fat Guy: Well, that's never going to happen. Maybe some new running shoes will help.

I would never develop software on a system where:
1. I could only run the program after it was released as a Beta, and
2. I had to finish the user interface before I could test the logic.
I wouldn't expect to find every bug during my testing, but I could certainly find any big problems. And whether you want to call it Beta testing or a sandbox or whatever, unproven maps should not be played for points, and new testing should not be blocked just because some people are in the middle of a game. If a major change is required, just kill all Beta games for that map and let them start over if they want.

Looking back over my map thread, I can't say I really know what was expected of me at the end. There were many suggestions (all of which I responded to), but I didn't see any clear consensus about which ones should be used. I wasn't sure myself whether the bonuses and neutrals were good, or if I should add more territories or have The Motive bombard the suspects.

Updating the graphics seemed pointless if these things were just going to change again, so the only thing I could think of to do was to try to play it. It's too big to play on paper, so I started working on a playing program, but that's an even bigger project than the map, so I just didn't have the time. No new suggestions came in, but it hadn't received the next stamp either. (Though it doesn't make much sense to me how a gameplay stamp can be awarded without anyone ever, you know, actually playing it.) So I'd be happy to finish the XML and start trying it out, but doing anything else seems like a waste of time.
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby DiM on Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:41 am

degaston has a very good point. a closed circuit testing system would be wonderful.
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:49 am

DiM wrote:degaston has a very good point. a closed circuit testing system would be wonderful.


What do you think lackattack is. While we have all been waiting on sully, he is having the time of his life playing Knights & Warlocks. :D
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Re: Decline in map standards.

Postby Gillipig on Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:51 pm

koontz1973 wrote:
DiM wrote:degaston has a very good point. a closed circuit testing system would be wonderful.


What do you think lackattack is. While we have all been waiting on sully, he is having the time of his life playing Knights & Warlocks. :D

I think they both mean in an earlier stage of development. Instead of having XML as the last thing, degaston is basically saying graphics should be the last stage. What makes this suggestion unrealistic is that it would require a lot more work and activity from the site programmers (who at the moment is just lack). And untill we have another guy on that job it just can't be done. I also think it would be pointless to do all this work with making the XML code and gameplay features perfect, before we have a clue if the guy is skilled and dedicated enough to create a good looking map. Now it's true that most people don't really care much for graphics, if the gameplay features are awesome they'll play it almost regardless of the graphics. But we still want good looking maps to come out of the foundry. I do agree with you though degaston that the focus on graphics over gameplay is pretty absurd when we consider what really matters, but your suggestion is not plausible with the current amount of programming hours put down on the site.
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