Worrying trends in the foundry

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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby natty dread on Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:19 pm

DiM wrote:while your tutorial is indeed important for those that use gimp for the first time, it's obviously nowhere near enough to make a decent map.


True. It's a basic tutorial for beginners, one that introduces them to the fundamental tools and techniques that will allow them to learn more by themselves.

I've been meaning to write a more advanced tutorial one of these days, the only problem is that some of my techniques are sort of dependent on tablet use, and I'm not sure how to adapt them for more general purpose...

DiM wrote:but how do you do the shore shadow. those little grungy lines along the shore line make everything look better.


Hm, I can think of a couple of ways... First create a texture that has that grungy line pattern, then create an outer glow around the land... hide the glow, then use it to alpha mask the texture.
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby DiM on Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:27 pm

natty dread wrote:
DiM wrote:but how do you do the shore shadow. those little grungy lines along the shore line make everything look better.


Hm, I can think of a couple of ways... First create a texture that has that grungy line pattern, then create an outer glow around the land... hide the glow, then use it to alpha mask the texture.


i was just giving an example, i wasn't asking for a tutorial :P
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby natty dread on Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:37 pm

DiM wrote:
natty dread wrote:
DiM wrote:but how do you do the shore shadow. those little grungy lines along the shore line make everything look better.


Hm, I can think of a couple of ways... First create a texture that has that grungy line pattern, then create an outer glow around the land... hide the glow, then use it to alpha mask the texture.


i was just giving an example, i wasn't asking for a tutorial :P


I know, I just can't resist talking about graphics :P
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby RjBeals on Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:58 pm

i used my pen/tablet and actually sketched those lines
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby natty dread on Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:10 pm

RjBeals wrote:i used my pen/tablet and actually sketched those lines


That was the other way I was thinking of :mrgreen:
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby DiM on Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:12 pm

RjBeals wrote:i used my pen/tablet and actually sketched those lines


that involves actual talent which i don't have and no tutorial will teach me :lol:


PS: on a separate note, what's going on with majcom? it seems to be slower than ever. it takes up to 1 minute to load a page. and no it's not my connection since everything else on the internet is lightning fast.
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby RjBeals on Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:12 pm

I beg to differ DiM - you have tons of talent. Very creative. It doesn't take much to draw some wavy lines around the coast.
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby natty dread on Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:25 pm

"Talent" is overrated anyway.
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby DiM on Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:36 pm

RjBeals wrote:I beg to differ DiM - you have tons of talent. Very creative. It doesn't take much to draw some wavy lines around the coast.



creativity is no longer required on CC. cows are today's special. tomorrow pigs and other animals. next week the brain and human anatomy. then keyboard, piano and the periodic table of elements.
who needs creativity when we can take the dictionary and transform almost any noun into a map?


as for actual hand-drawing i'm ashamed to admit i'm just a bit better than my 3 year old daughter. :lol:
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby The Bison King on Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:09 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:Back on your first post. I'm well aware about this trend. Easy thing to solve. The CAs will tell to the mapmakers to quit. The mapmakers has to start to think that no one here is asking them to draw maps. I already said this: mapmaking is not a right, it's a privilege. Don't expect the site asks to you to draw maps, instead it's YOU that is asking to the site if you can draw a map for it. THe site has its standard, if you can meet them your map will be quenched, if not, sorry but try something else to spend your time.
It could sound harsh but it's the flat and real truth.
Then, we can pretend that it's not in this way forever but it's just the dog chasing its tail.

thenobodies80 wrote:Sorry I had to explain me better, I have the flu so probably today I'm not so good to explain things in the right way.
CAs don't have to tell to the mapmakers to quit. In fact they HAVE to say how to to do things, not just ask to mapmakers that they need to change things. But if the mapmakers tell to the foundry people and to CAs that they won't change the things because it's their map, then the CAs can leave the map die. Hope it's more clear in this way. ;)

Yes that's great except that one of the comments posted in Natty's original post was from a CA. What then? How do we address this problem when the people who are supposed to discourage this behavior are guilty of it themselves?

This is another bothersome excerpt from the same thread:

If I do this for Ohioians, then I'll have to do it for Utahians, then Californians then ... you get the picture.

Basically he's using the excuse that if one change is made to appease a certain group then he'll have to make changes in other regions of the map to make it more accurate. Which really is the whole point of the foundry in the first place, right? To listen to feedback and make appropriate changes in areas where other peoples expertise outweighs your own. Saying that you aren't going to take a step towards improvement in one area because it will force you to improve the map over all is sort of like saying you aren't interested in doing a good job. If you aren't listening to the people who live in those places and will be playing the map it is really like saying that you aren't interested in making maps for the users of this website, you're making the map for yourself, and you don't care what other people think. I really feel like that is the wrong attitude for a map maker, let alone a CA, to have.
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby natty dread on Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:20 am

TBK please, this thread wasn't meant to blame people or point fingers. And that particular issue has already been solved.

In any case feedback is a two-way street, you can't demand a mapmaker to take your advice - you can offer feedback and debate about it, but if the mapmaker doesn't want to take it that is their right if they have a reasonable reason for it, which is the case in this case.
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby lostatlimbo on Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:34 am

DiM wrote:creativity is no longer required on CC. cows are today's special. tomorrow pigs and other animals. next week the brain and human anatomy.


Ha... I actually think the human body could still be a great map. Someday I'll come back to it.
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby DiM on Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:37 am

lostatlimbo wrote:
DiM wrote:creativity is no longer required on CC. cows are today's special. tomorrow pigs and other animals. next week the brain and human anatomy.


Ha... I actually think the human body could still be a great map.


from a gameplay point of view ANYTHING can be a great map. if i take a picture of my hairy butt i can still split it in territories and add rules and bonuses to make a great map. and even the graphics can be made top-notch. but would you play it?
at the current rate you might actually be closer than you think from playing a map like that.

lostatlimbo wrote: Someday I'll come back to it.


glad i won't be around to see that.


PS: landgrab allows anybody to make any map but then sorts those maps into endorsed maps sorted by quality (gold/silver) and crap maps which aren't endorsed.
CC is starting to allow crap maps but doesn't have an endorsement or sorting system.
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:02 am

The Bison King wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:Back on your first post. I'm well aware about this trend. Easy thing to solve. The CAs will tell to the mapmakers to quit. The mapmakers has to start to think that no one here is asking them to draw maps. I already said this: mapmaking is not a right, it's a privilege. Don't expect the site asks to you to draw maps, instead it's YOU that is asking to the site if you can draw a map for it. THe site has its standard, if you can meet them your map will be quenched, if not, sorry but try something else to spend your time.
It could sound harsh but it's the flat and real truth.
Then, we can pretend that it's not in this way forever but it's just the dog chasing its tail.

thenobodies80 wrote:Sorry I had to explain me better, I have the flu so probably today I'm not so good to explain things in the right way.
CAs don't have to tell to the mapmakers to quit. In fact they HAVE to say how to to do things, not just ask to mapmakers that they need to change things. But if the mapmakers tell to the foundry people and to CAs that they won't change the things because it's their map, then the CAs can leave the map die. Hope it's more clear in this way. ;)

Yes that's great except that one of the comments posted in Natty's original post was from a CA. What then? How do we address this problem when the people who are supposed to discourage this behavior are guilty of it themselves?

This is another bothersome excerpt from the same thread:

If I do this for Ohioians, then I'll have to do it for Utahians, then Californians then ... you get the picture.

Basically he's using the excuse that if one change is made to appease a certain group then he'll have to make changes in other regions of the map to make it more accurate. Which really is the whole point of the foundry in the first place, right? To listen to feedback and make appropriate changes in areas where other peoples expertise outweighs your own. Saying that you aren't going to take a step towards improvement in one area because it will force you to improve the map over all is sort of like saying you aren't interested in doing a good job. If you aren't listening to the people who live in those places and will be playing the map it is really like saying that you aren't interested in making maps for the users of this website, you're making the map for yourself, and you don't care what other people think. I really feel like that is the wrong attitude for a map maker, let alone a CA, to have.



There's difference between give feedback about a gameplay or graphics issue and give feedback about a personal opinion. The first two things must be followed (i.e. example your map has pixxellation everywhere, your colors are too brilliant, that bonus is too huge, that regions lacks a connection) and the mapmaker has to do all he can do to fix the issues, but the third is a personal suggestion (i.e. I want that city in the map because is bigger)....it's up to the mapmaker to decide if he wants to add that thing to the map or not unless it is given a reason more than valid, and objective, that not do what is suggested will affect in some way the whole map layout and its gameplay. In this case, it's so bad a US map without a city? No, I don't think so.

As said there's a big difference. :)
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby Gillipig on Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:18 pm

Maybe the foundry needs it's own "society of cooks" forum? There, new mapmakers who are trying to learn the basics of map making and not actually trying to make a map yet, could get all the help they need and be treated in a more gentle way because the things they do won't compete in the foundry and therefore it doesn't matter if they aren't 100% awesome. I think it would be a nice way to "lure" more players into mapmaking and give them a positive first experience without affecting the quality of the maps that are playable. There's no harm in be gentle as long as being gentle doesn't hurt the quality of the maps we have here. And that would be the case if we were being gentle with a new mapmaker as it is now! As it is now there's no real place to just play and experiment with mapmaking. I think we need this!
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby natty dread on Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:14 pm

Gillipig wrote:Maybe the foundry needs it's own "society of cooks" forum? There, new mapmakers who are trying to learn the basics of map making and not actually trying to make a map yet, could get all the help they need and be treated in a more gentle way


There are several flaws in this idea.

Firstly, the SoC teaches people to play a game. There's no harm in it if they fail to learn and lose a game or two - they can take a more relaxed attitude with it, because even if the students fail that doesn't f*ck up anything in the long term. Here in the foundry though, if a mapmaker fails and everyone is just being too nice about it to say anything negative, then the result is a failed map.

Secondly, creating a play-pen for new mapmakers where they are treated with kiddie gloves and wrapped in swaddling is just going to cause a culture shock when they migrate to the foundry and are faced with honest criticism and feedback. It's better that they learn to deal with the feedback system from the start, and learn to accept criticism. We really don't need any mapmakers who are unable to take criticism to their work.

Gillipig wrote:I think it would be a nice way to "lure" more players into mapmaking


Do we really need to "lure" more people into mapmaking? I think we get enough mapmakers as it is. Look at the main foundry, it's chock-full of map threads. The FF has a huge waiting list of maps on their way to beta.

Some people complain about the system, for various reasons, and give up mapmaking after their first attempt fails. Others struggle on, stay their course even when it's difficult, and ultimately succeed. The foundry is not for everyone, and I don't think we should make the process "easier", because the process is supposed to be difficult - it's supposed to challenge the mapmaker to do the best work he possibly can.
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby DiM on Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:37 pm

natty dread wrote:
Gillipig wrote:I think it would be a nice way to "lure" more players into mapmaking


Do we really need to "lure" more people into mapmaking? I think we get enough mapmakers as it is. Look at the main foundry, it's chock-full of map threads. The FF has a huge waiting list of maps on their way to beta.


more people trying their hand at mapmaking is a good thing as long as they understand how the foundry works and are ready for months of hard work and critique.

what we need is more CAs to comment on maps and push them forward or kick them in the nuts and bin them.
right now most of the CAs barely post and simply wait to see how a map goes without bothering to interfere.
i as a veteran mapmaker find this rather frustrating so i can only imagine a new mapmaker feels even worse.
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby natty dread on Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:02 pm

DiM wrote:more people trying their hand at mapmaking is a good thing as long as they understand how the foundry works and are ready for months of hard work and critique.


Exactly, what I'm saying is that we shouldn't try to "lure" them in with false promises.
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:16 pm

DiM wrote:what we need is more CAs to comment on maps and push them forward or kick them in the nuts and bin them.


Right now we don't have so many CAs but we're working behind the scenes to reorganize things a bit. ;)

tbh I don't want a big number of CAs....instead of more CAs to comment I want CAs comment more...if you get what i mean. :P
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby DiM on Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:22 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:
DiM wrote:what we need is more CAs to comment on maps and push them forward or kick them in the nuts and bin them.


Right now we don't have so many CAs but we're working behind the scenes to reorganize things a bit. ;)

tbh I don't want a big number of CAs....instead of more CAs to comment I want CAs comment more...if you get what i mean. :P



i'd like a lot of CAs who also comment a lot. but few CAs that comment a lot is still better than few CAs who comment a little. :mrgreen:
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby cairnswk on Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:07 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:
DiM wrote:what we need is more CAs to comment on maps and push them forward or kick them in the nuts and bin them.


Right now we don't have so many CAs but we're working behind the scenes to reorganize things a bit. ;)

tbh I don't want a big number of CAs....instead of more CAs to comment I want CAs comment more...if you get what i mean. :P


So Gimil is gone from the list.
tnb80, the offer still stands!
Re your above statement...i beleive that 4 of each GP and GFX plus perhaps 2 XML checkers should be sufficient. This gives 1 of each to cover above what you have now for those who need a break.
The more reasonable quality help you have the better it is for everyone. :)
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby MrBenn on Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:39 pm

DiM wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:
DiM wrote:what we need is more CAs to comment on maps and push them forward or kick them in the nuts and bin them.


Right now we don't have so many CAs but we're working behind the scenes to reorganize things a bit. ;)

tbh I don't want a big number of CAs....instead of more CAs to comment I want CAs comment more...if you get what i mean. :P



i'd like a lot of CAs who also comment a lot. but few CAs that comment a lot is still better than few CAs who comment a little. :mrgreen:

The Foundry doesn't need more CA's. It needs more people who have a good attitude to helping and supporting each other. It needs mapmakers who continue to push themselves to the edges of their ability and who can continue to improve the quality of their maps, and by extension, those of the site.

It's a real struggle to get good people who want the responsibility for no reward - the best people usually have other commitments and it's a pretty thankless task.
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby DiM on Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:48 pm

MrBenn wrote:The Foundry doesn't need more CA's. It needs more people who have a good attitude to helping and supporting each other. It needs mapmakers who continue to push themselves to the edges of their ability and who can continue to improve the quality of their maps, and by extension, those of the site.


not much of that around here. most people either don't bother to push themselves or don't bother helping others push themselves.
the current trend is to either do the bare minimum for your map to pass or stick just to your threads and ignore everything else. or even both.

nobody can force people to post in other threads so the only thing that can be influenced is the will to improve and that can either come from inside or from a CA.
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Re: Worrying trends in the foundry

Postby greenoaks on Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:11 pm

worrying trends?

the other day i asked natty for some help, and he gave it, twice. :D
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