Map thread - anything goes as long as it is maps ;)

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Re: Why can maps not be tested first?

Postby DiM on Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:02 am

koontz1973 wrote:
ender516 wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:
ender516 wrote:I wish I had the time to reverse engineer and reproduce chipv's work.


I know this may seem a silly question but has anyone tried to ask him for the code?

I believe I asked for a peek long before he left, and he was shy about it then. I doubt that he would be feeling more open now.

Without knowing the first thing about programming, how hard would it be to do this for the site in case chips one goes off line permanently?



the real question here is: "how hard would it be for lack to do it?" :roll:
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Re: Why can maps not be tested first?

Postby degaston on Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:44 am

DiM wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:
ender516 wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:
ender516 wrote:I wish I had the time to reverse engineer and reproduce chipv's work.

I know this may seem a silly question but has anyone tried to ask him for the code?

I believe I asked for a peek long before he left, and he was shy about it then. I doubt that he would be feeling more open now.

Without knowing the first thing about programming, how hard would it be to do this for the site in case chips one goes off line permanently?

the real question here is: "how hard would it be for lack to do it?" :roll:

A lot easier than it would be for anyone else to do it.

I saw an old interview with him that indicated that he quit his job to run this web site. Is he still actively involved in this, or is it just kind of running on autopilot and the free labor of people who want it to be better?
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Re: Why can maps not be tested first?

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:12 am

Lets get this back on topic now.
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Re: Why can maps not be tested first?

Postby natty dread on Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:20 am

koontz1973 wrote:Lets get this back on topic now.


Hm, odd. I never noticed you had become a moderator...
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Re: Why can maps not be tested first?

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:21 am

natty dread wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:Lets get this back on topic now.


Hm, odd. I never noticed you had become a moderator...

Not become one but why go off topic. If that was the reason for this thread, it would of been named differently.
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Re: Why can maps not be tested first?

Postby Gillipig on Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:39 am

natty dread wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:Lets get this back on topic now.


Hm, odd. I never noticed you had become a moderator...

It's still his thread!
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Re: Why can maps not be tested first?

Postby natty dread on Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:44 am

Why? The discussion goes in the direction it goes... you can't restrict the flow of ideas, man.

On that note, I've always thought this one-dimensional threading paradigm of most internet forums is a kind of flawed concept... It's so limiting - the "threads" are basically just strings of posts in a linear fashion. A multi-threaded discussion would be much more elegant, where each new topic could fork down to multiple different conversations, and you could conveniently follow any of the lines of discussion you'd like in whichever order you'd like...

No more splitting posts to new topics, no more worrying about "off-topic posts" - each poster could conveniently fork the thread to different directions. Kind of something like on reddit or most blogs, but a bit different - the blog-style threading system allows "multithreading" but it still flows in a linear fashion. My system would be more like hypertext - you could actually "spawn" new topics from the original topic, by choosing at the time of replying whether you want to stay in the original "thread" or fork a new one, and then anyone who starts reading from the op could follow the different threads in parallel or one at a time or however they like... and the different threads could later merge, join together with other threads from other original topics, and the whole system would be a criss-cross of references...

Think how a system like that would affect the foundry for example, you could comment on one map thread, the discussion would go to a subject that would benefit another map, and the thread could be forked over to the other map thread, and so on.

Ok, that might be confusing for some people at first, but after getting used to it, I'm sure people would wonder how they ever got by without it...

Anyway, you were saying?
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Re: Map thread - anything goes as long as it is maps ;)

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:53 am

All right then. Renamed the thread so anything goes now as long as it is maps. Lets keep the bashing to a minimum and turtle out of the roasting pit. ;)

Wanted to post this in a new thread so why not here.

If chips xml wizard goes off line, how many of you lot would continue making maps?
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Re: Why can maps not be tested first?

Postby degaston on Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:36 am

koontz1973 wrote:Lets get this back on topic now.

I think the original question has already been answered: Maps cannot be tested during development because lack doesn't want them to be tested during development. (and no one else wants to put in the effort when there's no support from the site.)
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Re: Map thread - anything goes as long as it is maps ;)

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:39 am

Which is why the thread and topic have changed.
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Re: Map thread - anything goes as long as it is maps ;)

Postby ender516 on Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:10 am

XML was written by hand before the Wizard existed, and would likely be done that way again. There were other tools, spreadsheets and such, which helped with the task, and Premier2k had been working on a standalone app for XML editing which he abandoned when the Wizard arrived, since his had no graphical input (I think). That project could be resurrected and enhanced. I have often thought a GIMP addon would be a nifty thing, or something that tied into Inkscape, since SVG and XML are both SGML at their base.
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Re: Map thread - anything goes as long as it is maps ;)

Postby DiM on Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:02 pm

koontz1973 wrote:If chips xml wizard goes off line, how many of you lot would continue making maps?



my first (and only) xml was done without the wizard. i wrote everything by hand in notepad.

it wasn't even my map :lol:

there are far bigger problems than the loss of the xml wizard.
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Re: Map thread - anything goes as long as it is maps ;)

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:32 pm

DiM wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:If chips xml wizard goes off line, how many of you lot would continue making maps?



my first (and only) xml was done without the wizard. i wrote everything by hand in notepad.

it wasn't even my map :lol:

there are far bigger problems than the loss of the xml wizard.

You may be right about the problems, but would you do it again?

With some of the complicated maps, the xml is really big. Would we of got kings court 2 without it? (Do not know if kabs did it with the wizard).
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Re: Map thread - anything goes as long as it is maps ;)

Postby DiM on Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:33 pm

koontz1973 wrote:
DiM wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:If chips xml wizard goes off line, how many of you lot would continue making maps?



my first (and only) xml was done without the wizard. i wrote everything by hand in notepad.

it wasn't even my map :lol:

there are far bigger problems than the loss of the xml wizard.

You may be right about the problems, but would you do it again?

With some of the complicated maps, the xml is really big. Would we of got kings court 2 without it? (Do not know if kabs did it with the wizard).


i outsource the xml writing :lol:
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Re: Map thread - anything goes as long as it is maps ;)

Postby Gillipig on Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:38 pm

I'm branching off on something different here but you said anything goes as long as it's got to do with maps right ;)?

The biggest problem that I see with the foundry is the lack of updates to improve it. But It's also something that we can't do much about! We can state our opionons and give suggestions on what we would like to have but that's about it. We're not going to get anything by striking or going on and on about what we'd like to have.
The second biggest problem the way I see it is that there are too few people in the foundry. There's a group of about 20 people who stand for about 99% of all posts here. This is not good for creativity. But unlike the lack of updates from lack, this isn't something we can't do anything about! I think we need to be more selling! Instead of just making a map and dealing with the feedback we get in that thread we could try to bring people to our map threads. How about PM'ing random players on the scoreboard that you're making a map and would like their feedback on it?
I'm sure this would bring in a lot of people who's never been in the foundry before. Maybe their advice wouldn't be the best but some would probably stay and later learn how to give good feedback. Who knows some might even take up map making. If we all did this I think we could make a difference!
It's no different from tournament organizing really. You want players to join your tournaments, and you want players to comment on your maps.
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Re: Map thread - anything goes as long as it is maps ;)

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:57 pm

DiM wrote:i outsource the xml writing :lol:

You lazy sod. :mrgreen:

Gillipig wrote:I'm branching off on something different here but you said anything goes as long as it's got to do with maps right ;)?

The biggest problem that I see with the foundry is the lack of updates to improve it. But It's also something that we can't do much about! We can state our opionons and give suggestions on what we would like to have but that's about it. We're not going to get anything by striking or going on and on about what we'd like to have.

Updates will come at some point. :P But right now, I think everyone just feels no love which is why everyone is bitching about it.
The second biggest problem the way I see it is that there are too few people in the foundry. There's a group of about 20 people who stand for about 99% of all posts here. This is not good for creativity. But unlike the lack of updates from lack, this isn't something we can't do anything about! I think we need to be more selling! Instead of just making a map and dealing with the feedback we get in that thread we could try to bring people to our map threads. How about PM'ing random players on the scoreboard that you're making a map and would like their feedback on it?

Tried this. I have a good few friends on my list that I carry from my tournies. I sent a PM out to all of them. Only about 5 came over. Most of the players now do not care, this may be down to the fact we have new maps every month.
I'm sure this would bring in a lot of people who's never been in the foundry before. Maybe their advice wouldn't be the best but some would probably stay and later learn how to give good feedback. Who knows some might even take up map making. If we all did this I think we could make a difference!
It's no different from tournament organizing really. You want players to join your tournaments, and you want players to comment on your maps.

Mass PMs for a tourney and maps is very different. One provides a service that players want and the other provides a means for that service. I started my next tournies this morning and both are nearly full now. At no time have I ever had 16 players come into a map thread in one day.
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Re: Map thread - anything goes as long as it is maps ;)

Postby natty dread on Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:11 pm

Gillipig wrote:How about PM'ing random players on the scoreboard that you're making a map and would like their feedback on it?


Then you'll get random people showing up in your map thread saying things like "great map, when can I play this" or "this map sucks!"
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Re: Map thread - anything goes as long as it is maps ;)

Postby degaston on Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:16 pm

Gillipig wrote:The second biggest problem the way I see it is that there are too few people in the foundry.

Apparently, some people think that that's the way it should be. For the others, does anyone else think that another benefit to pre-beta testing would be more involvement from the rest of the population? Most people come here to play games, not chat about color contrasts and pixelation. More people playing foundry maps would mean more people commenting on foundry maps. It's not that hard to ignore pointless comments, is it?
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Re: Map thread - anything goes as long as it is maps ;)

Postby Gillipig on Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:56 pm

koontz1973 wrote:
Gillipig wrote:I'm branching off on something different here but you said anything goes as long as it's got to do with maps right ;)?

The biggest problem that I see with the foundry is the lack of updates to improve it. But It's also something that we can't do much about! We can state our opionons and give suggestions on what we would like to have but that's about it. We're not going to get anything by striking or going on and on about what we'd like to have.

Updates will come at some point. :P But right now, I think everyone just feels no love which is why everyone is bitching about it.

Gillipig wrote:The second biggest problem the way I see it is that there are too few people in the foundry. There's a group of about 20 people who stand for about 99% of all posts here. This is not good for creativity. But unlike the lack of updates from lack, this isn't something we can't do anything about! I think we need to be more selling! Instead of just making a map and dealing with the feedback we get in that thread we could try to bring people to our map threads. How about PM'ing random players on the scoreboard that you're making a map and would like their feedback on it?

Tried this. I have a good few friends on my list that I carry from my tournies. I sent a PM out to all of them. Only about 5 came over. Most of the players now do not care, this may be down to the fact we have new maps every month.

I think you make a big misstake when you assume that people just don't care about the foundry, and that's why there are so few people here!
First of all that sends out the wrong message. It's not like more people will want to come here if those who are here say that the foundry is crap and that's why we're so few here.
Secondly the foundry is very hard to contribute to! Most people that come here don't know what to say and have no experience of image manipulation programs. They'll probably just say that they like or dislike the map. Then go away feeling like they can't contribute because they don't know anything of image manipulation. I know sully has a map commenting usergroup but that hasn't succeeded in teaching most people how to contribute. I think a lot more people would be interested in the foundry if they thought they could improve it. But they just see themselves as incapable of giving good advice so why bother.
Thirdly I don't think this PM'ing method has been tested enough to say it doesn't work! I'm going to have a go at it when I make my next update. (which is long overdue btw :oops: )

natty dread wrote:
Gillipig wrote:How about PM'ing random players on the scoreboard that you're making a map and would like their feedback on it?


Then you'll get random people showing up in your map thread saying things like "great map, when can I play this" or "this map sucks!"

Yeah well that doesn't exactly hurt my map either. It's not like they're going to comment if I don't send them a PM so a useless comment is not worse than no comment. And then there's the long time effect. You might make someone intersted in the foundry who previously wasn't. And he might learn how to comment and even make maps in the future.
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Re: Map thread - anything goes as long as it is maps ;)

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:55 pm

Gillipig, you done your mass PM yet? Let us know when you have so we can all view the results of it.

gillipig wrote:I think you make a big misstake when you assume that people just don't care about the foundry, and that's why there are so few people here!

I am sure some care, some would care and have not found it yet. But one of the problems now is over saturation and confusion. Which map of many do you comment on but unless you have come to the foundry a couple of times and read some of the posts at the top of each forum, you may not know where to post.
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