RIP Foundry Avatars

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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby natty dread on Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:03 am

Gigi1 wrote:This site is what it is. It is not the real world


If you imagine in your head a planet with 8 moons where 5-headed sentient antelopes have built a utopian society, that's not the real world. That's just imagination, a fantasy world.

This, however, is the real world. This website exists within the real world. The very fact that people can communicate with other, real people through this site is enough evidence that this site is real. Just because some thing is accessible through the internet does not make it some kind of immaterial abstraction that only exists in your head. Websites are, in fact, actual real things that exist in the real world.

Also, of course it "is what it is". Everything is what it is. That doesn't mean that we should just accept everything as they are and never make any effort to change them.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby Dukasaur on Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:08 am

Robespierre__ wrote:What I don't understand is why this great bunch of volunteers does not feel supported by Lack. While it seems they have logic and reason behind their dissatisfaction, that actually does not matter. The very fact that they *FEEL* dissatisfied is all that should matter to Lack. That feeling needs to be addressed else you will get what you have here: volunteers not wanting to volunteer. Please, Lack. Care about what these guys feel. They are trying to help. Don't make them feel like they are running into a brick wall.

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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby isaiah40 on Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:24 am

Imagine this if you will. A couple of people from here decide to leave and take some mapmakers with them to start another Risk based game site, (no I'm not talking about Major Command), and those mapmakers decide to tell lack to remove their maps form CC. Just from 3 mapmakers, CC will be down by 50 maps. What if more mapmakers leave and have lack remove their maps, where will CC be then? it would be left with the maps it started out with, you know, the ones not a lot of people play on. Will it take this scenario to get lack's attention?

Just a few random thoughts of what COULD happen.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby DiM on Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:26 am

isaiah40 wrote:Imagine this if you will. A couple of people from here decide to leave and take some mapmakers with them to start another Risk based game site, (no I'm not talking about Major Command), and those mapmakers decide to tell lack to remove their maps form CC. Just from 3 mapmakers, CC will be down by 50 maps. What if more mapmakers leave and have lack remove their maps, where will CC be then? it would be left with the maps it started out with, you know, the ones not a lot of people play on. Will it take this scenario to get lack's attention?

Just a few random thoughts of what COULD happen.



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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby Nola_Lifer on Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:05 pm

I don't see how others can come on here and criticizes the people who make the maps and the people who help run the foundry. How ignorant can you be? Why do you come onto this site? To play on these beautifully made maps. I don't see any other reason why you'd be on this site other than to troll. It is a shame that these people aren't given credit where credit is due. Another point is that these said people are trying to make this site better. Better html means better and more creative maps. Why would you not want this and why would you criticize them for wanting these changes?

Good on you. =D> Glad that we do have people who care enough about this site to rebuke. RIP Foundry!
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby thehippo8 on Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:42 am

This is an interesting debate from many different directions.

The Internet Chess Club went through a similar issue. Whebn the developers and those involved at the top (mods, programmers, assistants) got into logger-heads it was all about the commercialisation of the site. Thos in charge decided that enough was done and it was the best chess site on the net so it decided to close off certain people and up the fees. The result for those in charge was unexpected. FICS (free internet chess club) was born. People split off and to this day FICS is much larger than ICC. Sure, more grandmasters play on ICC than FICS but most people who play chess online are not grandmasters! Moreover, grandmasters get free entry to FICS and what grandmaster would want to play a 100, 1400, 1800 or even 2000 rated player? Indeed, what's the point in playing there other than to "be seen" or "try new ideas with their mates" or "play other grandmasters". This form of elitism may attract those international masters (the rank below grandmasters) who can usefully learn from mistakes or new idea - but anyone can do that by following grandmaster games. So ICC dwindles and one can only hope can see the error of its ways.

I am impressed by CC (Conquer Club) that it has meshed pay-things (membership and things for sale) with free-things (a limited taste of the website and involvement in extraneous activities by its members (freemium and premiun) such as chat, forums, mafia and most notably the foundry. Sure the heads here own this site and we all partake on the understanding that things may one day change no-one would expect things to change to the extent that the foundry would go. Go, are you kidding?

Frankly, the foundry the the backbone of this website. I believe that lack knows that and I can't help wondering whether all this is about Lack and others finding out whether we as a community really value it too. Well, we do!

And I can only hope and pray that we don't end up going down the track of loosing such amazing talent as Natty Dread or DiM or ... well too many to mention ... or worse people just leaving the site in droves and the inevitability of something else coming along and ruining this site for good! No, we all love this place and spend so much time and effort here. Don't let the foundry die - respect your followers, your people, your strength! And we in turn will respect you right back!

Perhaps now would be a goof time, Lack or other "senior", to pop in and provide some reassurance. I feel the inevitable grip of inevitability and fate's teeth otherwise!
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby RjBeals on Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:15 am

Interesting. You all feel the same way me and some old timers did a few years back. I don't mind making maps for free. I still do at cartographersguild, simply because I enjoy it. But cartoguild is not a business, it's a forum for map enthusiasts. The fact that Lack is making money off the maps his users give him for free, while he is completely uninvolved, or unresponsive - it's going to eventually start to be frustrating.

Funny I was just chatting with Oaktown and WidowMakers about the thrill it used to be several years ago when everytime we logged into the forum, there was some kind of action to get involved with. Not so much anymore. Good luck on your revolt. I wonder what will happen If everyone stops making maps in protest.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby Kabanellas on Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:27 am

Robespierre__ wrote:What I don't understand is why this great bunch of volunteers does not feel supported by Lack. While it seems they have logic and reason behind their dissatisfaction, that actually does not matter. The very fact that they *FEEL* dissatisfied is all that should matter to Lack. That feeling needs to be addressed else you will get what you have here: volunteers not wanting to volunteer. Please, Lack. Care about what these guys feel. They are trying to help. Don't make them feel like they are running into a brick wall.


Precisely!
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby oaktown on Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:35 am

Let me tell you all a little story. A few years ago, a bunch of guys with names like Widowmakers and Coleman and RjBeals and DiM and cairnswk and qwert and Keyogi and mibi and gimil and edbeard and oaktown began working on our first maps. Some of these maps weren't very good (Chinese Checkers). But we learned from each other, got better, and took on the running of the foundry. But over time most of us grew frustrated with the lack of attention from above, and started rumbling for development support and higher standards. Many left, and those that stuck it out aren't nearly as active as they once were.

So in answer to Rj's question: if everybody stopped making maps there would just be a new crop of mapmakers with weaker skills and lower standards that would appear in a few months, completely oblivious to the fact that the veteran mapmakers left. They'd gradually improve their skills and become Foundry mods. It's the natural Foundry cycle.

CC's Foundry is largely independent of the management of the site. This is a both a strength and a weakness. You guys run the show and control the output, but you also suffer from a lack of support. It remains a really good model for the user who wants to work on their graphic skills in a supportive environment and see their work published, and for most users it works. But after a time you want it to be more.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby natty dread on Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:51 am

oaktown wrote:CC's Foundry is largely independent of the management of the site. This is a both a strength and a weakness. You guys run the show and control the output, but you also suffer from a lack of support. It remains a really good model for the user who wants to work on their graphic skills in a supportive environment and see their work published, and for most users it works. But after a time you want it to be more.


Yep, pretty much. However:

oaktown wrote:So in answer to Rj's question: if everybody stopped making maps there would just be a new crop of mapmakers with weaker skills and lower standards that would appear in a few months, completely oblivious to the fact that the veteran mapmakers left. They'd gradually improve their skills and become Foundry mods. It's the natural Foundry cycle.


I can see what you're referencing here... this worked once before, because back then, not all of the old mapmakers left, some who had at least learned somewhat how mapmaking worked stayed to instruct the new mapmakers.

But what if all of the current mapmakers & foundry staff left at once, so there would be no one to instruct the new mapmakers? Would the new crew be able to construct a new foundry, completely from scratch? I'm not sure... maybe with time they could. There's plenty of tutorials on graphics design, and they could benefit from the mapmaking tutorials already on this site, as well. But as to how to run the day-to-day business of the foundry, how to keep the gears rolling and how to keep everything working smoothly... I don't know. Depends on the people I guess.


On the other hand, we who are currently in the foundry don't have the same options as the "old guard" - we can't just up and start another CC-like website, as to my knowledge there isn't anyone among the current mapmakers with the know-how or resources to do that. So if the foundry dies, the future for the current CC mapmakers looks grim, from a mapmaking perspective - there aren't any good alternatives where the current mapmakers could migrate. I expect most would just find some other purpose, other kinds of projects to work their skills on. There are plenty of stuff out there that welcome contributions from even moderately skilled graphic artists, there just isn't anything quite similar to CC mapmaking.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby Oneyed on Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:34 am

what is interesting me, if anybody has any reaction from lackattack on this protest. because in topic is nothing...

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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby oaktown on Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:36 am

natty dread wrote:But what if all of the current mapmakers & foundry staff left at once, so there would be no one to instruct the new mapmakers? Would the new crew be able to construct a new foundry, completely from scratch? I'm not sure... maybe with time they could.

Nature abhors a vacuum. It wouldn't be the foundry as you know it today, but it would find a way to function. As I said before, this is a very good model for some users. It's just not for everybody.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby isaiah40 on Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:36 pm

natty dread wrote:On the other hand, we who are currently in the foundry don't have the same options as the "old guard" - we can't just up and start another CC-like website, as to my knowledge there isn't anyone among the current mapmakers with the know-how or resources to do that.

Well I for one can design a basic web site, but as far as coding everything to make the site work efficiently, you would need someone who does coding for a living to get it done. A dedicated server nowadays aren't that expensive, and you can always go larger as the site grows.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby Ace Rimmer on Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:33 pm

Just a quick note that I fully support Joe (aka thenobodies80) and the rest of the boys in blue. I love the responses from the admins in this thread, it's very telling.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:25 am

I definitely hear where everyone is coming from, I think I felt some of the same frustrations when I was Foundry Foreman back in the day as well. The Foundry has definitely always been a special place to me, since it always seems filled with so much potential---and if there is lack of enthusiasm, I think it really does effect the website as a whole.

Lack and King Achilles started discussing some items while I was out of the office last week, and I caught up with them this past Monday. We'll have a longer and more in-depth conversation mid-week. We're working on some actual tangible items, instead of just written promises, and I am sure we'll be in touch with the Cartos (and the rest of the Foundry here) as well.

I think a lot of good will come out of this, and hopefully there will be some new added interest in the Foundry's map and development as well.


--Andy
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:45 am

Andy, for a response from an admin, that was short and sweet. ;)
Please remember, none of us took this action lightly and all we want is to make better maps for everyone.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby degaston on Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:09 am

Add my vote of support to the foundry volunteers. I was interested in map-making, but the lack of support from the top made it not seem worth the effort - or worth renewing my premium membership.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby crazymilkshake5 on Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:01 pm

I stand on the map makers side 100%.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby thehippo8 on Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:26 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:I definitely hear where everyone is coming from, I think I felt some of the same frustrations when I was Foundry Foreman back in the day as well. The Foundry has definitely always been a special place to me, since it always seems filled with so much potential---and if there is lack of enthusiasm, I think it really does effect the website as a whole.

Lack and King Achilles started discussing some items while I was out of the office last week, and I caught up with them this past Monday. We'll have a longer and more in-depth conversation mid-week. We're working on some actual tangible items, instead of just written promises, and I am sure we'll be in touch with the Cartos (and the rest of the Foundry here) as well.

I think a lot of good will come out of this, and hopefully there will be some new added interest in the Foundry's map and development as well.


--Andy

Thanks Andy, this is encouraging! (Have changed my avatar accordingly!) Looking forward to hearing from you later in the week.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby isaiah40 on Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:28 pm

thehippo8 wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:I definitely hear where everyone is coming from, I think I felt some of the same frustrations when I was Foundry Foreman back in the day as well. The Foundry has definitely always been a special place to me, since it always seems filled with so much potential---and if there is lack of enthusiasm, I think it really does effect the website as a whole.

Lack and King Achilles started discussing some items while I was out of the office last week, and I caught up with them this past Monday. We'll have a longer and more in-depth conversation mid-week. We're working on some actual tangible items, instead of just written promises, and I am sure we'll be in touch with the Cartos (and the rest of the Foundry here) as well.

I think a lot of good will come out of this, and hopefully there will be some new added interest in the Foundry's map and development as well.


--Andy

Thanks Andy, this is encouraging! (Have changed my avatar accordingly!) Looking forward to hearing from you later in the week.

I am sorry hippo, but I can't read your avy. Can you please change it to the tombstone one?
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby DiM on Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:43 pm

could we know what these "tangible items" are and what's a realistic time frame for getting them?
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby MrBenn on Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:25 pm

DiM wrote:could we know what these "tangible items" are and what's a realistic time frame for getting them?

Tangible items = too little
Time frame = too late
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby DiM on Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:42 pm

MrBenn wrote:
DiM wrote:could we know what these "tangible items" are and what's a realistic time frame for getting them?

Tangible items = too little
Time frame = too late


that's precisely why i'm asking because i've heard promises so many times i've become immune to them.

do we get xml updates? do we get map categories? do we get a new interface?
we haven't even seen tnb80's map gallery get implemented and that was supposedly a sure and easy thing. i mean the guy worked hard to create that and lack didn't even bother to put a link to the gallery somewhere in the browse maps section.

so i don't know what others think, but as far as i'm concerned, these "tangible items" would better be something really awesome and they'd better come fast.
“In the beginning God said, the four-dimensional divergence of an antisymmetric, second rank tensor equals zero, and there was light, and it was good. And on the seventh day he rested.”- Michio Kaku
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby Dukasaur on Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:06 pm

DiM wrote:we haven't even seen tnb80's map gallery get implemented and that was supposedly a sure and easy thing. i mean the guy worked hard to create that and lack didn't even bother to put a link to the gallery somewhere in the browse maps section.

Wow. That blows my mind.

Such a nice resource being squanderered.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby IcePack on Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:35 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
DiM wrote:we haven't even seen tnb80's map gallery get implemented and that was supposedly a sure and easy thing. i mean the guy worked hard to create that and lack didn't even bother to put a link to the gallery somewhere in the browse maps section.

Wow. That blows my mind.

Such a nice resource being squanderered.


Never even knew that existed...
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12:11:16 ‹Swifte› good thing we have the beta program to weed all these problems out
12:15:00 * IcePack joins Social
12:15:35 ‹Swifte› well that's just bad timing
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