RIP Foundry Avatars

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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby DiM on Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:23 am

RjBeals wrote:why not just say what it is? Why does it have to be mysterious? Maybe you'll get feedback if you make it public?


precisely. this is what CC always does and in most cases the updated becomes a disappointment.

somebody comes in and brags an update is coming. he promises it will be important/nice/great/bring new innovative things. and months later after no feedback whatsoever we end up with an update that could very well be nice on its own but the problem is that during the waiting period, because we lack any sort of information each of us starts thinking, dreaming and hoping only to realise that in the end the update is not what we wanted.

now i'm a seasoned veteran used to disappointment and broken promises but hope seems to be coded in the human dna and once i first read andy's post i immediately thought we'd get conditional borders or infected neutrals, or even both. other mapmakers probably thought of really lax supersize rules or even a new interface, or perhaps no more jpg compression on our maps.

regardless of which one of these gets implemented all others will fell at least a bit disappointed.
if there really is something tangible being worked on then i don't see how it would hurt telling us what it is.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:43 am

DiM wrote:somebody comes in and brags an update is coming. he promises it will be important/nice/great/bring new innovative things. and months later after no feedback whatsoever we end up with an update that could very well be nice on its own but the problem is that during the waiting period, because we lack any sort of information each of us starts thinking, dreaming and hoping only to realise that in the end the update is not what we wanted.


This is important: I never said that a big, important, nice update is coming. I've just said that something is moving behind the scenes.
DiM you were on the Team as well, you know that volunteers don't know things years before they are realeased but just few time before the others.
Anyway I don't think it's matter of months in this case, but more few days, at least I hope.

About this, instead:

RjBeals wrote:why not just say what it is? Why does it have to be mysterious? Maybe you'll get feedback if you make it public?


1. I don't know why it has to be mysterious, but it's not my business and being part of the TeamCC i can't tell things before they are announced officially, specially because in most of the cases I don't know what they are! lol

2. The feedback part. I'm on your side here. There's no day in which I don't push in that direction and imo it should be the way to go. It's probably the worst part of my job as foreman. Gather people desires and achieve them. It's like I always find myself caught between the rock and a hard place. Sometimes is not simple to find a way to give people what they want, convince admins that you're speaking for a reason. On the opposite, sometimes is not simple to convince people that what they had is really what was possible to give them in that moment. Balance people expectations and desire with what is reality is 99 time on 100 an impossible mission and there's no day in which I don't ask to myself: "I'm really doing all I can do to serve the foundry people in the right way?"

Now, what I would like to do is create the right place, and I think this thread could be that place, for a serious discussion. What should be the perfect way to have things done? How we should manage updates and requests? I mean, it's clear that the xml suggestion thread is bullshit. Imo there's no point in post something there and wait without a serious discussion. Imo suggestion should go through a different way, it doesn't matter if a suggestion end up with a simple and sad: "no it can't be done, rejected". Imo it's 1000 times better than don't know. So for you guys what is a good way to manage suggestion, at least for the foundry?
But remember, they should be proposals, not orders...we're not here to rule the site but to make sure our voice is heard and things done taking into account what we say, even if it could mean that something is not always in the way we would like to have it.

Personally I think that there should be a sort of semi regular basis on which updates should work, considering the foundry slownwss i would say 1 every 4 months or 6 months, but in any case not less than 1 every year. I would say that CAs and admins should try to gather info during this period of time and try to understand and ponderate what updates could be beneficial for the foundry and in the same time what updates are possible and feasible from a technical point of view. When this is done I would go with the 3 best candidates to start a public review period and discussion, maybe with a public poll. To me this should be the wway to go, but I don't know if it matches your vision.

What are your thoughts about it? Remember, if I know how you would like to see this place running I can try to push things in a direction, try to create a democratic system where democracy is appliable since it's probably the best way to go. ;)

It's your turn, I'll hand the discussion over to you
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby natty dread on Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:01 am

thenobodies80 wrote:So for you guys what is a good way to manage suggestion, at least for the foundry?


I think there should be, once every month or two months, an event where everyone in the foundry can put forth ideas and questions and then lackattack would personally show up and give us straight answers for them. Maybe a thread could be posted a few days-week in advance, and people can post their ideas/questions in it, and then at a set date, lackattack would show up and interact with the community.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby DiM on Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:06 am

thenobodies80 wrote:
DiM wrote:somebody comes in and brags an update is coming. he promises it will be important/nice/great/bring new innovative things. and months later after no feedback whatsoever we end up with an update that could very well be nice on its own but the problem is that during the waiting period, because we lack any sort of information each of us starts thinking, dreaming and hoping only to realise that in the end the update is not what we wanted.


This is important: I never said that a big, important, nice update is coming. I've just said that something is moving behind the scenes.
DiM you were on the Team as well, you know that volunteers don't know things years before they are realeased but just few time before the others.
Anyway I don't think it's matter of months in this case, but more few days, at least I hope.



i was talking more at a general strategy that CC seems to have. plus i was referring to andy's post not yours.
he said tangible things will come. what are those and when they'll come is a mystery and my point was that mystery is not really good unless you actually deliver some mind boggling awesome update.

i'd rather have a post that says: "lack and KA are currently working on a conditional borders xml update and we have an estimated date of release 1 month from now. we'll try and give you weekly updates"
instead of "we're working on something. we can't say what it is or when it will come"
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby DiM on Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:12 am

natty dread wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:So for you guys what is a good way to manage suggestion, at least for the foundry?


I think there should be, once every month or two months, an event where everyone in the foundry can put forth ideas and questions and then lackattack would personally show up and give us straight answers for them. Maybe a thread could be posted a few days-week in advance, and people can post their ideas/questions in it, and then at a set date, lackattack would show up and interact with the community.


if memory serves me right, in the original xml suggestions thread lack personally came and commented on which suggestion and told us yes/no/maybe.
that didn't really work out as people expected.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:19 am

in that case sorry, I thought you were referring to this post viewtopic.php?f=127&t=174607&start=60#p3825838 ;)

But probably it's because we both know there's much more hidden behind your words than what you wrote. :-#

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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby DiM on Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:31 am

no hidden meaning. seriously.
i've posted this thing in a lot of places around the forums. i just disagree with CC's strategy of dealing with updates. regardless if we're talking about the foundry or the site in general.

they always say an update is coming but they never give specific details and in the end a lot of people are disappointed.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby zimmah on Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:33 am

DiM wrote:
natty dread wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:So for you guys what is a good way to manage suggestion, at least for the foundry?


I think there should be, once every month or two months, an event where everyone in the foundry can put forth ideas and questions and then lackattack would personally show up and give us straight answers for them. Maybe a thread could be posted a few days-week in advance, and people can post their ideas/questions in it, and then at a set date, lackattack would show up and interact with the community.


if memory serves me right, in the original xml suggestions thread lack personally came and commented on which suggestion and told us yes/no/maybe.
that didn't really work out as people expected.


let's fnd the tread, select all the suggestions that lack answered with 'yes' and make a new tread from just those, and let's vote on them which one is most urgent, and let's make sure they get implemented the first, and than the rest after a few months, etc. and if no better suggestions come up in between, let's start working on the maybe's.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:34 pm

Getting a load of updates in one go, whilst nice would really complicate things over the long run. With average times in the foundry running from 6 months +, having a new update every year of one or two ideas would allow map makers to make maps for that specific one. 3 months consultation on what can be done, would like to be done, followed by a vote maybe of the best ideas, then the update coming live a little later. Follow this sort of pattern would give plenty of new maps every year with the new features and a year for players to get used to the new features.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby MrBenn on Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:07 pm

The best conversations that have ever been had about ANY updates to CC are those where lackattack has been involved with discussions with the community - but it is true to say that most decisions appear to be made by lackattack, on his own whimsical flight of fancy. Back in the day, lack was involved in discussion with the mapmaking community and discussed the best way to implement some desired changes such as one-way borders and ranged attacks - but it's the only example I can think of where lack has proactively engaged with the community before making any decisions.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:08 am

Without any input from the turtle, we will never know what is going on, what can change, might change, will change. But it is now Monday and the weekend has past. Lets see what comes around this week.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby Gillipig on Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:38 am

MrBenn wrote:The best conversations that have ever been had about ANY updates to CC are those where lackattack has been involved with discussions with the community - but it is true to say that most decisions appear to be made by lackattack, on his own whimsical flight of fancy. Back in the day, lack was involved in discussion with the mapmaking community and discussed the best way to implement some desired changes such as one-way borders and ranged attacks - but it's the only example I can think of where lack has proactively engaged with the community before making any decisions.

We talk and talk and talk but because no one participating in the discussion has any say in implementing the suggestions, we might as well be children in the school yard, discussing how our school should be run.

I have to debunk the argument that map makers are not needed. (Anymore that is.) The site is going to the crappers, number of users are free falling and disinterest among regular members is record high. Who could possibly argue that this site doesn't need to be seriosúsly revamped in one way or another? Forget that CC is still by far the best RISK board game look alike, it doesn't matter because RISK is not chess! CC doesn't only have to compete with sites that have the same theme. It needs to be competetive in respect to other strategy based games available on the net. The gameplay idea doesn't sell itself! You don't have millions of people willing to play it online. You have to fight, lure, convince, please everyone you possible can in order to make it successful. You have to have passion! And be smart.
Chess is easy to run, just enable people to play chess on different time restrictions against each other and you're set. It doesn't matter how the chessboard looks, you don't need to give the pieces different values or abilities on different boards. And winning a game is more about your own skill, and more satisfying than CC can ever hope to be. That's why CC always needs to keep improving, otherwise it'll be outdated. It is very outdated already so we're not talking about something that will come in time. It's just getting more and more outdated as we speak.
If I owned this site I'd give it one chance to refresh itself. Change the interface to a newer sexier look, make a serious marketing attempt to bring in more new members (and old), give the mapmakers the tools they wish and see if they can make these super entertaining maps they claim, raise the premium member fee to partly accomadate for the expenses put out, and see if it works. If CC still have a future. If it turns out it doesn't, sell it. Move on. We don't need your words lack, we need your actions!
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby RjBeals on Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:19 am

Gillipig wrote:... we might as well be children in the school yard, discussing how our school should be run


Your entire post was great Gillipig. Lack should have done something years ago to advance the site. I wonder if he reads this stuff? Most likely not, which is why we are just like kids in a school yard. That's a great analogy.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby zimmah on Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:27 am

RjBeals wrote:
Gillipig wrote:... we might as well be children in the school yard, discussing how our school should be run


Your entire post was great Gillipig. Lack should have done something years ago to advance the site. I wonder if he reads this stuff? Most likely not, which is why we are just like kids in a school yard. That's a great analogy.


this

and this

If CC still have a future. If it turns out it doesn't, sell it. Move on. We don't need your words lack, we need your actions!


sums it up quite well.
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Re: RIP Foundry Avatars

Postby Nola_Lifer on Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:31 am

Does anyone else find it funny that his name is lack :?: :P
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