A new year, a new foundry!

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Re: A new year, a new foundry!

Postby thenobodies80 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:38 pm

ok, here some additional thoughts on what you said:

ManBungalow wrote:And, as ever, map-making is voluntary. Why should we ban a user from doing something voluntary which can only be:
A] Of no consequence (is abandoned)
B] Beneficial (new map)
An abandoned map causes no harm to the community.


Exactly, mapmaking is voluntary, no one forces you to start a map. A very good reason to not spend energies onto something that everyone knows will require time and effort if you're not sure that develop a map is something you really want to do.
I don't think that abandon a map project causes no harm to the community. Every single map project has a big impact on the community. All maps are developed with the support of community and mods and abandon a map is like spit on the time all these have spent on the map. I strongly believe that abandon a map is detrimental for the community: imagine that you start a project. imagine that I'm a foundry user and that i enjoy to support map projects and give advices to mapmakers. At some point you abandon the project without a reason. How do you think i can feel? How long do you think I can continue to spend my time to suggest and give advice if all that time is just wasted? I think that after a while I will stop to comment or worst I'll stop to visit the foundry.
I think you can realize how much time is required to give a real feedback on a map, i think that you need at least 20 mins to study a map and give real advice for it. It's not just few secs like you said. Few secs are enough only to write "I like it" and click submit.
To the foundry goers support add the mods effort, I can't count the number of hours that my team spend at looking maps or to discuss together to try to help the mapmaker to develop the best possible map.
Now that you have figured out all these things you can easily understand that, being voluntary, you can have the right to use your time as you want and maybe waste it. But imo you have no right to waste the time that everyone else has spent on your map.
I really don't want people stop to post and suggest because a mapmaker can abandon a map. People has not to support maps only when the map is not well accepted, shitty...in few words only when the community and the site don't want it. In theory this should be the only reason behind a NOT successful map project: no audience for it.
Remember that maps are done for the community and supported by the community....so if you want to make a map you must bear in mind that the respect for the community must be one of the most important things, probably the most important.

ManBungalow wrote:but the mods/contributors are volunteering similarly - they don't have to spend time commenting on maps which may go on to be abandoned.


Sorry but this is a nonsense. the foundry has always build on the community contribution. If you want people stop to comment on maps, then we can close the foundry now. In addition mods are not nostradamus so how we can understand in advance if a map will be abandoned?
We don't work on maps thinking that they can be abandoned, but instead we work on maps thinking how to allow/help the mapmaker to develop the best possible map he can do.

I want to use this small paragraph to made clear that we're not talking about map ideas here, but instead about map project that has received at least the draft stamp.
I will never stop to stress about the fact that the draft stamp is one of the most important stamp. When a map receive the draft stamp, it means that the site approves the ideas and that the community wants that map. this is the big difference between a map idea and an approved draft. right now koontz1973 has the burdain to understand what map ideas and draft are worth to become CC official maps. We're talking about a 15000 memember community, it's like a small town. When he stamps a map he is acting in the place of an entire community. Don't look at the draft stamp like a one person action because it's not in this way. the stamp is just a symbol used for a business purpose, the real important aspect is what there's behind that small red image.

ManBungalow wrote:To be honest, the qualifying 'first stamp' criterion for a map development which can then be punishable ("mapmaker is subject to this [disciplinary] system for each map that will receive at least a stamp") if abandoned would only serve to make me shy away from getting the draft stamp.


To my eyes, be afraid about receiving a draft stamp is another nonsense. Let me make a similar example using RL. It's like when you have exams at university. You studied a lot and you're going to discuss your subject. You might fail, it's true. But you don't take your exam to fail, but to succeed. In the same way you don't have to think that the draft stamp means you can be punished (rejected) but instead that you're ready for your exam and that your objective is to pass it. In addition here you have someone that can help you to pass it! ;)
Remember, mods and community are not here to see your map project fail but for the opposite reason.

ManBungalow wrote:A map idea should be a map idea, and no one user should be limited to 5 ideas (then banned).

A map idea is a map idea, you can post an infinite number of ideas, the policy doesn't apply on ideas, nor on earlier draft. Here we're talking only about approved projects.

ManBungalow wrote:Not to mention that real life can get in the way of map development.

This is an important aspect and the policy take it into consideration. We know that shit happens. No one has a life without unexpected events.
This is why we have a ladder system in which you will receive 2 warnings before to receive the first ban.
In addition if you notice 2 levels have the same amount of time (6 months), but they are different.
The first ban is a specific one, the second is a generic one. what's the difference?
The first 6 months ban is applied only on the role you have in the abandoned project. It means that if you are the graphics developer and you reach the 3rd step, you won't be allowed to draw another map for 6 months. But in those 6 months you can help with gameplay or draw the xml for another map.
The second ban instead is generic so simply you can't take part to any project during that time; starting with that project. The ban is only applied on starting new map project not on projects that are currently into the process.
So if for example you have a map in gameplay and another in graphics and you decide to abandon the map in gameplay, you're still allowed to continue the one in graphics BUT you can't start a new one (obviously if you have already reached the 3rd step)
So the system is done again to push people to finish map projects and not to abandon them.

In addition look at the notes in the policy. Like nolefan has said we will give you 6 months before to consider the map abandoned. If your life is so messy to not give you a way to update a map for 6 month, then probably you have more serious issues than finish a map or being banned from the foundry for some months.
Moreover I decided to leave a case by case option because we will never know. It's obvious that if something really important or serious has happened to you, I'm won't be so bastard to ban you just for the sake of it. I always try to take into consideration the man behind the username; yeah rules are rules but they must be applied with a bit of salt. ;)
And in any case 6 months are not so few time, I want you really think about how many things happen or you do in a such long period of time.

Finally, I'm not a person who believe in a punishment given without a purpose. I always hope that people is able to understand something if punished, I always hope that people can find the good in something bad and learn from it. That's why we might consider to allow people to move on the ladder also in the opposite way. It doesn't means you can "stack credits" to abandon future maps, but we might take into consideration the fact you will resecue a your own abandoned map project. So, if for example you reach the 3rd step and after some time you complete the same abandoned map, you might find yourself again at the 2nd step. As said I'm a true "redention" believer. ;)
So you have to really pass the line to be considered life banned from mapmaking. Let me state clear from now that if you reach the 5th step there's no way to go back. But if you have understood how it works you have to really pass the line to reach that point.

chapcrap wrote:As far as the punishment goes, I agree with it. We do something similar with tournaments and it works fine. Lindax set it up quite a while ago and it prevents users from wasting TDs time and players time with tournaments that do not finish. We also have a tournament rescue policy, like the maps have now it seems. So, I think this is good work.

Yeah, I took inspiration from it. I ever wanted to create consistency between maps and tournaments. To my eyes both activities have the same importance, so they need to be treated in the same way. Moreover the system you use has proven to work properly, so why to not have something similar for maps? :P

chapcrap wrote:Well, I would move the Atlas out, because as is, it looks like it is under Beta maps. Which, is really the opposite...

About this I have no problem, like i said earlier and your statement makes sense from a certain point of view.
Just I would like to understand if it's just you or not. Gimme the time to collect some feedback on it. O:)

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Re: A new year, a new foundry!

Postby generalhead on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:19 pm

=D> Well said thenobodies80
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Re: A new year, a new foundry!

Postby ender516 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:51 pm

I am somewhat in favour of a system that requires the map maker to make a commitment to see a map through to the end, and that provides for disciplinary action against those who willfully break said commitment. However, I think that there should be an explicit post by a Cartographer in the map thread requesting that commitment, at whatever point in the process is determined to be the go/no-go point. The map maker should be able to choose to discontinue an idea that is no longer working for him/her, without penalty, provided this is done before the Foundry (Cartographers and the general population) have invested heavily.
I do wonder, however, if this ladder will be climbed much. Do we really have that many map makers who repeatedly abandon projects? Some might have a number of projects going and drop them all at once in a fit of pique, but who starts a map, drops it, starts another, drops that, and so on, over and over?
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Re: A new year, a new foundry!

Postby Oneyed on Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:39 am

the new Abandon system looks fine. I agree that 6 month is enough time for any update. evrybody who do not like it - do not forgot that this is not valid for map ideas...

maybe it would be more clear with a little change:
...
3rd Abandoned map - 6 month of ban from start new project.
...
or you realy mean that after 3rd Abandoned map (map X) mapmaker can not work on his another map (map Y) or also can not "relive" his another map (map Z)?

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Re: A new year, a new foundry!

Postby greenoaks on Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:20 am

how many of our current mapmakers got their first idea all the way to Quenched ?

how many would have received a ban for the early attempts before their current success ?
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Re: A new year, a new foundry!

Postby ManBungalow on Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:38 am

Okay nobodies, I'll burn that bridge when I get to it.

Fire away, otherwise.
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Re: A new year, a new foundry!

Postby ender516 on Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:12 pm

greenoaks wrote:how many of our current mapmakers got their first idea all the way to Quenched ?

how many would have received a ban for the early attempts before their current success ?

These are fair questions, which could be answered with a bit of research. Now, who has the time? I am tied up a bit right now, working on Map Rank.
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Re: A new year, a new foundry!

Postby cairnswk on Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:26 pm

ender516 wrote:
greenoaks wrote:how many of our current mapmakers got their first idea all the way to Quenched ?

how many would have received a ban for the early attempts before their current success ?

These are fair questions, which could be answered with a bit of research. Now, who has the time? I am tied up a bit right now, working on Map Rank.

humbly...I did...CCC ! :)
however....i have other projects that have been abandoned temporarily:
    Snowfight....got a draft stamp...and i recently started doing some artwork on it again...reason for abandonment: skills not up to par
    CC's Treasure Island...never had draft stamp - not in those days....skills again not up to par, although mibi thought so (or was he being sarcastic?)
    MIrror Mirror....never got draft stamp...skills still not up to par!
    Classic Cities: Perth....supersized stamp....and still being worked on on my computer in PS.
    12 pk Classic Cities: never put forward for ideas...only in another mapmakers forum.
    3 Blind Mice: Idea
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Re: A new year, a new foundry!

Postby greenoaks on Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:54 pm

ender516 wrote:
greenoaks wrote:how many of our current mapmakers got their first idea all the way to Quenched ?

how many would have received a ban for the early attempts before their current success ?

These are fair questions, which could be answered with a bit of research. Now, who has the time? I am tied up a bit right now, working on Map Rank.

i wasn't asking for anyone in particular to do all the legwork. more of an open question to the individuals to let us know how these rules would have impacted them if they where brought earlier.

thanks cairnswk for the response. from what i can gather Snowfight is abandoned and has earned you a spanking. be sure to collect. :lol: while Classic Cities: Perth would have earned you an official warning.

here's the rub. over the next 5 years cairnswk may produce anther 30 maps but if some of his ideas get abandoned he will be banned from making any more maps. :(

we are not that harsh with taking/missing turns. you have to miss 3 in a row to get booted.

it is the same with running tournaments. successfully completing tournaments earns you points to offset any you've acrued from abandoning some.

can something like that be considered here ?
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Re: A new year, a new foundry!

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:17 am

greenoaks wrote:how many of our current mapmakers got their first idea all the way to Quenched ?

how many would have received a ban for the early attempts before their current success ?


Out of the ones with maps quenched:
koontz - yes -Rorke's Drift
Flapcake - yes - Kingdom of Denmark
Seamus76 - yes - Tribal War Florida
Oneyed - Not yet but it is very close to beta (CSFR)
dana1971 - Not yet (Cow)
Lancelot du Lac - Not yet (France 2.1)
Vaughn03 - Not yet (Battle for Spice islands)
generalhead - Not yet (Alamo)

The others in the main foundry are either blue boys or cairns. But Flaps, Seamus and myself all made it through first time. As for the others in the foundry right now like Oneyed, the only thing stopping them is themselves. I believe I am the only one with a map that could get an unofficial warning (Escape). All the others are clean as a whistle.
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Re: A new year, a new foundry!

Postby greenoaks on Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:55 am

koontz1973 wrote:
greenoaks wrote:how many of our current mapmakers got their first idea all the way to Quenched ?

how many would have received a ban for the early attempts before their current success ?


Out of the ones with maps quenched:
koontz - yes -Rorke's Drift
Flapcake - yes - Kingdom of Denmark
Seamus76 - yes - Tribal War Florida
Oneyed - Not yet but it is very close to beta (CSFR)
dana1971 - Not yet (Cow)
Lancelot du Lac - Not yet (France 2.1)
Vaughn03 - Not yet (Battle for Spice islands)
generalhead - Not yet (Alamo)

The others in the main foundry are either blue boys or cairns. But Flaps, Seamus and myself all made it through first time. As for the others in the foundry right now like Oneyed, the only thing stopping them is themselves. I believe I am the only one with a map that could get an unofficial warning (Escape). All the others are clean as a whistle.

that's much better than i thought it would be.

i would just hate to see someone who abandoned 5 maps out of 55 attempts be treated the same as someone who is 5 for 5 with fails.
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Re: A new year, a new foundry!

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:45 am

greenoaks wrote:it is the same with running tournaments. successfully completing tournaments earns you points to offset any you've acrued from abandoning some.

can something like that be considered here ?


It was considered. Please take a look at the announcement and the additional info i gave with my previous post:

thenobodies80 wrote:Obviously we want to reward serious and committed mapmakers, so we're looking for possible incentives (e.g. a prize for having successfully completed 5 maps in a row)..more info about them soon! ;)

thenobodies80 wrote:It doesn't means you can "stack credits" to abandon future maps, but we might take into consideration the fact you will resecue a your own abandoned map project. So, if for example you reach the 3rd step and after some time you complete the same abandoned map, you might find yourself again at the 2nd step. As said I'm a true "redention" believer. ;)


The policy is not Ten Commandments, it's not written by God...so we can change it slightly if we see that is too restrictive. What I can say for now is to start to live with it, look if it really has a so big negative impact on the mapmaker's production. (i don't think).
I don't understand how people can judge the policy when it has not applied once yet...:-k

Probably the issue is based on the fact the english language uses the same word for too many situations, when my native language (italian) doesn't.
Like I said the policy will be applied with a bit of salt....i'm not going to ban or move any mapmaker on the ladder system without a VERY VERY valid reason. And in most of cases I think the main reason will be that the mapmaker will not update the map for months without giving a reason. To give a couple of quick examples that come to mind:
- Golfe Du St. Laurent (before the contest), abandoned without a valid reason.
- Conquer 500, actually abandoned when it was so close to the completion.
- New Papua Guinea, won a contest, took the prize..then the map was abandoned.

Situation like Golfe du St. Laurent shouldn't happen anymore....do you remember what mess that map caused? Yeah, we did a contest to change something bad into something good, but we can't hope all time that there's a Tisha around that will finish a map just because the original mapmaker found really funny to not finish his own map. Moreover because the origianl mapmaker came after years and posted something like that: viewtopic.php?f=358&t=125279&p=3938977#p3938977

Using conquer 500 again as example (remember that is just an example because the policy is not retroactive)....if dolomite13 won't finish the map he will receive a unofficial warning. But if a day he will finish it, he will find himself again at the starting point. So it is exactly what you're asking greenoaks. ;)

greenoaks wrote:i would just hate to see someone who abandoned 5 maps out of 55 attempts be treated the same as someone who is 5 for 5 with fails.


No, this won't happen. The policy is done exactly to get rid of those "funny" elements that post maps just for the sake of it or abandon them without caring about all the rest that comes with the map process.
If someone start 5 maps and abandon 5 maps...then sorry but mapmaking it's not what he should do.

I'll give an answer to other questions later today, but let me state clear that the policy....considering how it will work...it won't have a real impact on people like cairnswk. We are not so idiot to write a policy to get rid of people like cairnswk, we wrote a policy to give to people like cairsnwk the attention and the time "stolen" by the others who don't take seriously the foundry process.

I think you can get what i mean. Like I said from the start, serious mapmakers has nothing to fear.

Sorry guys, now I have to go...more inputs will come later today.
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Re: A new year, a new foundry!

Postby greenoaks on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:00 am

its not quite what i was thinking.

with tournaments i have another 60 original ideas to go, that's not including series/franchises. i suspect prolific mapmakers would be like me, they have a database of ideas/concepts to be fleshed.

the problem is if 1 of my tournament ideas turns out to be crap i can push through it to the finish. no harm done. it gets forgotten and buried. noyt so for a mapmaker. they will forever be shamed by that obvious to all NOW, crap idea. thee is no way they can make up for it by completing other maps like i can by completing other tournaments.

now i dont wont to come off as an eddie who argues for argues for arguements sake but i would like to see a formal system where perhaps 1 abandonment is a point but completing 1 removes that point. with tournaments each abandonment takes 10 successful tourneys to erase, but they are easier to complete than a map so please don't be that harsh.
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Re: A new year, a new foundry!

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:48 am

tbh 1:5 is balanced imo, perhaps I can do 1:3.
In any case it will be 1:1 only for the same map.

It's not to be harsh, it's be serious with what you do. No one force you to draw maps.

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Re: A new year, a new foundry!

Postby cairnswk on Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:50 pm

i've been watching the discussion...

tnb...no-one forces us to draw maps, but many of us do it for pleasure, myself included, and as have done many of those who only have on map quenched.

while i appreciate your comments that the system is not targeted at myself (above) and that there is a degree of flexibity in it, i do think that greenoaks has a good idea in that 1 gain (from successfully quenched map) wipes out a previous point loss (from not completing a map or abandonment) against that mapmaker's name. this would then not discourage those who want to try to get a map made to become more serious about completing their efforts.
If the point losses then stack up to -5 or -3 (<-my preference) whatever is decided, then i think a ban or warning might appropriate what ever is the policy you decided.
this would then assist "Drafts" to fulfill a much better function, as long as each idea provided worthy is treated as reasonably serious and not totally negative. I beleive that any idea is worthy of an attempt if it has merit and can be explained. :)
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Re: A new year, a new foundry!

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:56 pm

mmm....what i do not want is that people can stack points. The biggest number should be 0 imo.
Things like I did 3 maps so now i can throw away 3 maps is what i do not want. (numbers are casual)
If we make it to something like if you abandon 3 and then you quench 3 you're at 0, then i think i'm fine with it. :)

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Re: A new year, a new foundry!

Postby greenoaks on Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:51 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:mmm....what i do not want is that people can stack points. The biggest number should be 0 imo.
Things like I did 3 maps so now i can throw away 3 maps is what i do not want. (numbers are casual)
If we make it to something like if you abandon 3 and then you quench 3 you're at 0, then i think i'm fine with it. :)

i like that compromise
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Re: A new year, a new foundry!

Postby ender516 on Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:15 am

Yes. This would be what we call a demerit point system, similar to what is used with driving licenses. You start at zero with a clean record. Offenses add demerit points (which are bad) and as various levels are reached, restrictions apply. Remedial work and/or good behaviour clears points from your record.
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Re: A new year, a new foundry!

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:23 pm

So, after the recent discussion this is the revised policy for Abandoned Map Projects:

Abandoned Maps Policy

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I think that now you're all happy with it and you can't say that the above system is not fair. ;)

Oneyed wrote:or you realy mean that after 3rd Abandoned map (map X) mapmaker can not work on his another map (map Y) or also can not "relive" his another map (map Z)?

About this, if you abandon 3 maps you can't start a NEW map project having the same role. This was done because maybe you don't have the time to draw a map but you can have the time to write the xml for the next one. So if you find yourself at the 3rd step and you were the graphics developer of that map, you won't be allowed to draw a new map project for the next 3 months. (the same for any other role you can have in the development)
Instead if you abandon 4 maps, you can't start any other map project or have any role into any new other map project.
The ban doesn't apply on pre-existing projects that are currently under development. This was done because it would be silly otherwise. The ban is given because you abandon a map, not to don't allow you to finish other maps you're working on. Again we want you finish your maps.

So using your example, if you abandon the map X and the map Y is already in development (draft stamp), you can continue the map Y and you can also restart to work on another map (Z) that was abandoned before the ban (again if the map has already received the draft stamp).
What you're not allowed to do is to start a new one when you're not able to finish what you've already started.
Is it clear how it works now? O:)

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Re: A new year, a new foundry!

Postby Oneyed on Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:16 pm

yes it is clear now.
thanks nobodies.

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Re: A new year, a new foundry!

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:18 pm

We have not finished yet...expect some other news in few days. 8-[

Stay Tuned! ;)

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Re: A new year, a new foundry!

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:42 pm

Here we are.

I had to wait some days since I didn't want to make confusion with colors etc etc, but now I can officially announce something that maybe some of you have already noticed.

As you know, one of the best mod of this site has recently decided to step down due real life reasons. It was a very sad news for me to know that Gilligan was going to leave the Team CC, first because few have been able to give a so extraordinary contribution to this site like him and also because I consider him a good friend of mine.

Even if I understand and respect the reasons behind his decision, I can't live with the idea to not have him around like before. So using the friendship power and some kind word, I've convinced him to spend some time in the foundry and help us in one of things he knows the most: XML.

For this reasons, even if with an unofficial capacity, I'm pleased to announce that from today Gilligan is our primary XML Checker.
He will help me and the blue team in ensure that the code for your maps is properly written and everything is in the right place; I'm sure that with his help we will be able to speed up a bit more the process.

Just a small note: Gilligan is the primary XML checker and he will be your main contact when your XML file has to be checked and approved, so he will probably demand to you some small changes if required and things like that...but please remember that is no more Team CC, so if you have a big issue (high time consuming) with xml or if you have questions that are related with the mapmaking process or how to use XML features, please consider to contact me and I'll be happy to give you a hand in any case.

So, please give a warm "welcome" to Gilligan! =D>
Thank you for your help mate :)

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Re: A new year, a new foundry!

Postby ender516 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:41 am

Oh, nobodies, you smooth talker, you snagged Gilligan. Well done!
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Re: A new year, a new foundry!

Postby Gilligan on Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:48 pm

Haha, ender. ;)

Just to clarify a bit of nobodies' statement, my door is open if you want to learn the basics of XML, I can guide you through either my way of doing it, or the public tutorial.
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Re: A new year, a new foundry!

Postby Aleena on Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:35 am

I'm a noob....
I'm also trying to build a map...
I hear from above on this thread that the community want's to give a negative point system for those whom abandoned a map.... I do not know much of this point system - but I feel to punish someone for abandoning a project that is clearly highly subjective based on those whom are controlling the Foundry and not really set in any clear achievable standard is wrong.

The whole stamping practice needs to be changed... Currently I've been help back in the draft stage because my graphics are not up to some unclear standard. (Basically those controlling the Foundry feels that the graphics can be better) I'm not even on the graphic stamp section yet, and based on the Draft Stamp guide lines - I have met all standards. So if after some time of re-doing this map over and over again - and If I still do not get clear directions on what is wrong with the work, but keep being held back because of one or two peoples opinions about it's over all appearance could make many give up and abandon the map. It would not be their fault, but that of the Foundry for preventing them from moving forward with out giving them clear reasons why. "Your graphics can be better, is not a clear reason... What is wrong with my graphics, is it all from the water to the text, or is it only part?" Plus they should not assume that all players whom want to contribute are graphic artists.

I feel they should be easier on those whom are trying - and maybe offer a grading scale for each map - based on a voting rank the players whom played it, gave it. These ranks will start with the beta testers and move on to actual game play. Then when a player wishes to start a game they have 3 tabs to select their game from:
4+ star games, 3+ Star games, Less then 3 Star games...
All games will be sorted and displayed based on their ranking given to them, not by the Foundry but by the community based on:
1) Graphics
2) Game Play
3) Enjoyment
4) Fairness
As players continue playing these games they can continue being graded at the end of each match, just as we currently rank other players. Then maybe after 6 months or 1 year any game that fails to move up to 3 stars or more will be removed from the database. This way all players trying to build their map will be able to - plus once in Beta and beyond they can receive a ranking progress report with suggestions if any of changes, by the actual community instead of by the Foundry. This will both prevent many maps from being abandoned as well as insure that this site maintains a high quality of game designs based off the views of the actual players.

This is just my 2 cents...
Though I'm new and it most likely does not mean much.
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