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Postby DiM on Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:33 pm

oaktown wrote:oh, DiM... sometimes by arguing against somebody you make their argument for them. :roll:


i like arguing too much to pass the opportunity of responding. even if sometimes it's better to ignore.


btw i agree with everything you said in the above post. :D
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Postby cairnswk on Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:49 pm

oaktown wrote:The foundry isn't perfect. What we primarily need are more voices in the process giving feedback on maps.


on all points above in the post and this quote....Well spoken oaktown...hear! hear!
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Postby oaktown on Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:12 pm

Khazalid, what do you think of this idea?

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 528#840528
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Postby yeti_c on Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:38 am

khazalid wrote:play the predictable foundry card of hostility to everyone not in your little clique.


Not meaning to fan the flames or anything like this -> but I believe you shouldn't throw stones if you live in glass houses...

You have a go at the Foundry for being Cliquey yet you belong to "THOTA"...

C.
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Postby reverend_kyle on Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:08 am

AndrewB wrote:I used to be looking forward any new map to come out. I was one of the first one to try them. Not anymore. Some of new ones are quite obscure and not interested. Here is the short, not full list of the issues i find.

1. Graphics.
1.a. I personally prefer nice crisp lines. I understand that having satelite image projected onto the map sounds like great FUN... at first... at the second look, all those little houses, etc, are distracting you during the game. New Canada map is the example of it.
1.b. Font selection. Quite often I find fonts to be very unreadable. For example: Midkemia and to the lesser extent AoM. There was 1 more map, but I cannot remember which one. Fonts preferred must be simple San Serif or Serif group, not written letters, which are tough to read.
1.c Color Selections. Map designers must make sure that their color do no clash with armies colors, and be nice and pleasant for eye. Berlin map is not that...
1.d. Maps being too busy and overloaded with the graphical details. Again new Canada map, upcoming madness map.
2. Playability.
2.a All those bombardments are not adding much playability-wise. What was achieved with the myriads of bombardments in the Pearl Harbor map? Or in Omaha Beach. I still cannot figure out what u can or cannot bombard in the Omaha Beach...
2.b. Every map needs to have its essence. Which can be chock points, or critical holdings etc. In the Battle of Actium there is no such thing. Everything can attack pretty much everything... Millions of possible pathways. Boring, very not interesting.
2.c. Battle of Australia. Why all middle part of map is always neutral? Is there a need for so much of it? How often do they actually get conquered during the game play? And if not often, why are there at all then?
2.d. Continent bonuses. In order to make a map, suited to play risk in no cards games, you have to make sure that bonuses are relevant and are feasible to hold. In Battle of Actium, all the continents are huge. Very tough to play no cards.
2.e. Some maps are plain obscure: Omaha Beach, Rail USA, Pearl Harbor, Bamboo Jack. Last map is not a map, but some kind of treasure hunting manuscript. There are more words there when countries names.

But there are new maps, which actually fit well into those requirements:

Italy, France, Montreal v2, Portugal. Nice and crisp, straightforward, yet interesting game play. Can we have more of those?


I agree with this. I like the Classic CC where all maps are variations of the same idea. Basic risk.
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Postby spiesr on Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:56 am

No matter what you believe, the foundry is broken at some level.
1. It is not easy for newcomers to give any real input.
2. If a user points out that a map is inherently flawed, this adivce is usally ignored.
3. The foundry is run and maps commented on by a select few. (This is not really, forced it just happened this way...)
4. Most users will never visit the foundry.
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Postby khazalid on Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:06 am

yeti_c wrote:
khazalid wrote:play the predictable foundry card of hostility to everyone not in your little clique.


Not meaning to fan the flames or anything like this -> but I believe you shouldn't throw stones if you live in glass houses...

You have a go at the Foundry for being Cliquey yet you belong to "THOTA"...

C.


THOTA is a clan. the foundry is not, although at times youd be hard pushed to see the distinction. i dont see where youre coming at with this, but feel free to enlighten me.
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Postby khazalid on Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:07 am

oaktown wrote:Khazalid, what do you think of this idea?

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 528#840528



i think its an excellent idea, well done
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Postby oaktown on Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:12 am

spiesr wrote:No matter what you believe, the foundry is broken at some level.
1. It is not easy for newcomers to give any real input.
2. If a user points out that a map is inherently flawed, this adivce is usally ignored.
3. The foundry is run and maps commented on by a select few. (This is not really, forced it just happened this way...)
4. Most users will never visit the foundry.

Sadly this may all be true. If #4 is true, it's hard to change #3. And if #3 is true, it's hard to change #1.

Likewise if all a new user posts is "This map is inherently flawed!" then yes, that non-constructive criticism will be ignored.

And if you don't think that this kind of post happens in the foundry, consider the post you just left: non-specific criticism, no productive input. :wink:

And Khaz - you've taken a lot of heat in this thread (some from me) but you keep coming back. You're alright in my book.
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Postby khazalid on Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:21 am

cheers oaky, likewise
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Postby cairnswk on Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:04 pm

khazalid wrote:
oaktown wrote:Khazalid, what do you think of this idea?

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 528#840528



i think its an excellent idea, well done


khazalid...i don't want to inflame anyone, but please read my post here....

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 058#842058
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Postby mibi on Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:29 pm

gah... i'm glad I stayed out of this thread.
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Postby wcaclimbing on Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:26 pm

mibi wrote:gah... i'm glad I stayed out of this thread.


Me too.

But one thing, I'm not sure if this is completely on topic, but....


I have seen some new mapmakers post their attempted maps and get get completely slaughtered by many other foundry members, new, old, and even some of the guys at the top were all there, completely destroying him and his map.

Not going to name any names, but i can think of at least 2 not-so-good maps where someone from THIS thread (oh noes!) was a major contributor to destroying that guys hopes of ever creating a map.

This slaughtering hasnt happened on every map, but i have seen it enough to know that the problem is not going away.

That being said, all of this talk about "making the foundry more user friendly" and all that should be started with not improving the foundry structure, but improving the members that take part in it every day.

That is all i have to say, i sure hope it was at least slightly on topic...
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Postby DiM on Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:01 pm

if an idea is bad then it will be slaughtered no matter who the author is. it's better to be brutally honest and spare that map maker his time and effort then to sweet talk him and tell him the truth later when he's already invested a lot of time in his project.
also i recomend you researc the foundry a bit more and you'll find projects from map makers that have been abandoned because other map makers didn't like them.

or better yet look at cairnswk's recently quenched pow map. in the initial stage it was completely slaughtered. so he took his time and did a complete redesign and gained the audience on his side.


if a guy comes and posts a star wars map for the milionth time do you really expect him to be treated nicely? it's like me going in the general discussion forum and making a thread on how i hate the dice. i'll be cursed instantly and the thread moved in flame.
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Postby spiesr on Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:19 pm

But you should not treat people that way dim. It makes it hard for people to get into the foundry.
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Postby wcaclimbing on Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:22 pm

DiM wrote:if an idea is bad then it will be slaughtered no matter who the author is.


At least you guys could play nice and not completely massacre the guy.

Instead of:

"this map idea sucks. go do something else. you are horrible at photoshop."

which i have seen many times before, Why not just a:

"I dont think this map will work out because A. [insert something here] and B. [insert something else here]. I think the best idea for you will be to move on from this idea and try something else.

DiM wrote: also i recomend you researc the foundry a bit more and you'll find projects from map makers that have been abandoned because other map makers didn't like them.


I have been part of this map foundry since before you even joined this site. I have seen everything in here. I don't always post, but i have always checked the foundry almost every day that I am on the forums.
I was here, watching the forums, when USApocalypse and Circus Maximus were being created. You werent even a member of this site then.

And yes, i know that some maps that get attacked are still continued and finished. I am just saying that, in the best interests of the new guys, play a bit nicer and show them a new, nice Map Foundry, instead of scaring them away.

I have had personal experience with the kind of stuff i am trying to stop.
Here is one for you:

DiM wrote:i'm rather curious. from the poll it seems the map has a lot of fans. i'm not one of them for the following 2 reasons:

1. gameplay sucks
2. graphic is bad


Instead of "Gameplay sucks, graphic is bad", EXPLAIN WHY IT SUCKS!

then the guy can IMPROVE HIS MAP, instead of being disheartened and pushed away from the foundry.

You guys arent all high-and-mighty just because you have been around here for a while.
Coleman wrote:
DiM wrote:
Coleman wrote:
DiM wrote:
Coleman wrote:
DiM wrote:
mibi wrote:
DiM wrote:i'm rather curious. from the poll it seems the map has a lot of fans. i'm not one of them for the following 2 reasons:

1. gameplay sucks
2. graphic is bad


stop stalking me you sailor moon freak :lol: :lol: :lol:

Careful, chibi's watching -> Image


:shock:
you're all freaks.

FREAKS i tell ya.

get away from me.... the voices ... THE VOICES..... they don't stop....NEVER.....it's cold.....and dark....

:lol:

Coming from the man with three eyes. :lol:


the third one is the one i ripped from you with my bare hands. :twisted:

That's okay, I think my eye patch is fancy. 8)

Uhh.. Back on topic time. I don't hate the map, but I can't help feeling it could be better.


Last time i was in here, it was me trying to create a map. I ended up with almost 2 pages of stuff like the quote above. Yes, that is an actual quote, with DiM and Coleman spamming my map thread.

That is part of the reason I quit posting, because I was honestly trying to make a good map, and all i got was crap from the guys who thought they were the best.


All i am asking is for you guys to play nice, and even though you hate the map, the guy that just made it probably spent a lot of time on it. It hurts to have your map repeatedly insulted by the guys who think they own the place just because they have made a few maps. That new guy that just posted the crappy map probably thinks its the best map in the world, and its not fair to anyone to destroy that.


Even though you might not realise it, it HURTS to have your map insulted. it HURTS to be completely rejected and ignored.
Last edited by wcaclimbing on Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Coleman on Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:25 pm

I've had a few slaughterings in my time. Conquer Club Neighborhood is a good example. :lol: I'm never touching that again.
Warning: You may be reading a really old topic.
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Postby sfhbballnut on Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:26 pm

yeah, constructive criticism is always better than straigh up "you're a failure at life"
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Postby wcaclimbing on Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:37 pm

Does anyone else understand where I am coming from with this arguement?

I had quit posting for nearly 6 months because of all the bullsh*t that i recieved over my most recent attempt at a map.


I have begun posting again as an attempt to pull the Map Foundry out of the trash heap that it has fallen into.

EDIT: look what i just found. it shows exactly what i am trying to stop:

DiM wrote:i'd rather stay here and make maps by myself than to deal with your crap and trolling. so if my words sound harsh and make you leave the foundry then be my guest.

We can't have that attitude, because then the foundry will never grow. We NEED new faces in here to keep this whole place running smoothly.
/Edit

We can't continue to have this set up with a few power-players at the top who have no care for the thoughts of those below them. The Foundry needs to be MORE focused on the new guys, because THEY are the future of Conquerclub, and they will be the future WidowMakers and Keyogis of the Foundry. They are the future of the entire Foundry, and whether you like it or not, we need some new guys here to bring in new thoughts, ideas, and inspirations.
If you chase everyone away that comes in with a new idea or looking for some help on a new map, there won't be anyone left because the Map Foundry will be an empty pit where the few that can stand it in here will stay, and the others will continue being scared away.
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Postby DiM on Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:02 pm

wcaclimbing wrote:
DiM wrote:if an idea is bad then it will be slaughtered no matter who the author is.


At least you guys could play nice and not completely massacre the guy.

Instead of:

"this map idea sucks. go do something else. you are horrible at photoshop."

which i have seen many times before, Why not just a:

"I dont think this map will work out because A. [insert something here] and B. [insert something else here]. I think the best idea for you will be to move on from this idea and try something else.


yes we could do that but when a guy comes and posts a shitty map like let's say plasagna world, can you really treat him seriously and tell him what to do? come on. ;)
look at unit_2 for example. he posts a new map idea once every few days. most of his ideas are hideaous at least graphically. everybody tried to help him, gimil and gnome offered to do the graphics on his maps. i talked to him by pm and told him to download photoshop and learn it and that he can ask for help at any time and i'll do it. yet he keeps posting horrible images done in paint. what's the use of bothering when you see no future.

plus in the "how to make a map thread i believe it says something about NO maps done in Paint. you can't really expect to get serious feedback when you come up with a horrible thing done in paint. unless you've already proven you're graphics are great by doing a previous map. most of us have better things to do then comment on a map that has no future. i won't waste 30 minutes of my time to post on a map done in paint even if that idea is good. i know from the start that the map will fail because of the graphics.

wcaclimbing wrote:
DiM wrote: also i recomend you researc the foundry a bit more and you'll find projects from map makers that have been abandoned because other map makers didn't like them.


I have been part of this map foundry since before you even joined this site. I have seen everything in here. I don't always post, but i have always checked the foundry almost every day that I am on the forums.
I was here, watching the forums, when USApocalypse and Circus Maximus were being created. You werent even a member of this site then.

And yes, i know that some maps that get attacked are still continued and finished. I am just saying that, in the best interests of the new guys, play a bit nicer and show them a new, nice Map Foundry, instead of scaring them away.


i don't care how long you've been around. if you don't post you don't help. very well that you read the foundry regularly and keep informed. but shame for sitting around not sharing your opinion.

wcaclimbing wrote:I have had personal experience with the kind of stuff i am trying to stop.
Here is one for you:

DiM wrote:i'm rather curious. from the poll it seems the map has a lot of fans. i'm not one of them for the following 2 reasons:

1. gameplay sucks
2. graphic is bad


Instead of "Gameplay sucks, graphic is bad", EXPLAIN WHY IT SUCKS!

then the guy can IMPROVE HIS MAP, instead of being disheartened and pushed away from the foundry.

You guys arent all high-and-mighty just because you have been around here for a while.
Coleman wrote:
DiM wrote:
Coleman wrote:
DiM wrote:
Coleman wrote:
DiM wrote:
mibi wrote:
DiM wrote:i'm rather curious. from the poll it seems the map has a lot of fans. i'm not one of them for the following 2 reasons:

1. gameplay sucks
2. graphic is bad


stop stalking me you sailor moon freak :lol: :lol: :lol:

Careful, chibi's watching -> Image


:shock:
you're all freaks.

FREAKS i tell ya.

get away from me.... the voices ... THE VOICES..... they don't stop....NEVER.....it's cold.....and dark....

:lol:

Coming from the man with three eyes. :lol:


the third one is the one i ripped from you with my bare hands. :twisted:

That's okay, I think my eye patch is fancy. 8)

Uhh.. Back on topic time. I don't hate the map, but I can't help feeling it could be better.


Last time i was in here, it was me trying to create a map. I ended up with almost 2 pages of stuff like the quote above. Yes, that is an actual quote, with DiM and Coleman spamming my map thread.

That is part of the reason I quit posting, because I was honestly trying to make a good map, and all i got was crap from the guys who thought they were the best.


ah so you were the one that reported me and coleman to wicked. that's why we got warned for spamming. ;)

wcaclimbing wrote:All i am asking is for you guys to play nice, and even though you hate the map, the guy that just made it probably spent a lot of time on it. It hurts to have your map repeatedly insulted by the guys who think they own the place just because they have made a few maps. That new guy that just posted the crappy map probably thinks its the best map in the world, and its not fair to anyone to destroy that.


that guy that posted the crappy map thinks he made a work of art when in fact he is eons away from anything remotely resembling a work of art. why not tell him the truth? why let him spend even more time on that crap by not telling him the truth. if i start playing the guitar tomorrow and i do it in a pub. i want people telling me if i suck. if they don't i might actually consider myself a good player and who knows what i might do next. the point is the longer you avoid telling someone he sucks at something the bigger his disappointment will be when he'll finally find the truth.

wcaclimbing wrote:Even though you might not realise it, it HURTS to have your map insulted. it HURTS to be completely rejected and ignored.


yes i know it hurts. but read the above reasons. and believe me it hurts even more when your map is in final forge and all looks good and only andy is missing to have your map on the site and then a guy that never read your thread comes and says the map is stupid, the idea is stupid the graphics suck and so on. that hurts more because you haven't spent 15 minutes making a rough sketch and starting a thread i the ideas forum, you actually spent 2-3 months making 80+ updates and taking care of all kinds of feedbacks. i've been there with AoM and i'm there with AoR and i'll probably keep being insulted even when i'll make my 10th map. but you know what? i won't start a thread and complain because i love map making and if a few harsh words sop you rm map making then you simply aren't made for this thing.

you say you've watched the foundry closely. then you probably remember my early projects. read there the feedback i received. i didn't die in fact every word made me stronger and motivated me to forget about paint and actualy learn fireworks and photoshop. yes believe it or not i have been in the place of the noobs you say i abuse. and i survived.
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Postby DiM on Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:19 pm

wcaclimbing wrote:Does anyone else understand where I am coming from with this arguement?

I had quit posting for nearly 6 months because of all the bullsh*t that i recieved over my most recent attempt at a map.


I have begun posting again as an attempt to pull the Map Foundry out of the trash heap that it has fallen into.

EDIT: look what i just found. it shows exactly what i am trying to stop:

DiM wrote:i'd rather stay here and make maps by myself than to deal with your crap and trolling. so if my words sound harsh and make you leave the foundry then be my guest.

We can't have that attitude, because then the foundry will never grow. We NEED new faces in here to keep this whole place running smoothly.
/Edit

We can't continue to have this set up with a few power-players at the top who have no care for the thoughts of those below them. The Foundry needs to be MORE focused on the new guys, because THEY are the future of Conquerclub, and they will be the future WidowMakers and Keyogis of the Foundry. They are the future of the entire Foundry, and whether you like it or not, we need some new guys here to bring in new thoughts, ideas, and inspirations.
If you chase everyone away that comes in with a new idea or looking for some help on a new map, there won't be anyone left because the Map Foundry will be an empty pit where the few that can stand it in here will stay, and the others will continue being scared away.


1. first and most important don't take a quote out of the context. it's a poor way of making a point.
2. that quote of me saying that was addressed to spinwizard that came trolling and saying in the AoR thread that the map is not good. no constructive criticism no nothing. simple trolling on a map that has reached final forge status.

he was promptl contradicted by coleman and aerial attack for trolling and for posting crap. then made 6 more posts where he didn't actually put up any constructive criticism. he simply posted crap. and this was quickly recognized as simple revenge posting against me because i gave him a hard time on his crosswords map.

i think aerial's post in that thread is very clear representation of that issue:
AerialAttack wrote:spin,

While, it is understandable that YOU (or even a large number of CC members ) don't like non-standard RISK maps - there are plenty of us who DO like ALL types of maps.

Let's not forget that you may or may not have an axe to grind with DiM - seeing as how he was the most negative person on your new Crossword 2.0 map.

What you have posted is NOT an issue that CAN be fixed - nor should the Foundry WANT it to be fixed. The Foundry wants there to be a variety of maps to suit everyone's likes. This also means that there will be plenty of maps that CC members will dislike. To go on raving about your stance in this thread is unproductive.

At least with DiM's rants in your thread - he managed to point out some potential flaws/hurdles that you guys fixed/accounted for. So, whilst not the best of posts - DiM's posts actually helped the Crossword 2.0 map.

Seeing as how you have nothing nice/productive to say about THIS map (AoR), anything more would just be trolling.
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Postby wcaclimbing on Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:07 pm

DiM wrote: 1. ...yet he keeps posting horrible images done in paint. what's the use of bothering when you see no future.

2. ...plus in the "how to make a map thread i believe it says something about NO maps done in Paint. you can't really expect to get serious feedback when you come up with a horrible thing done in paint.

3. ...30 minutes of my time to post on a map done in paint even if that idea is good.

4. ...ah so you were the one that reported me and coleman to wicked. that's why we got warned for spamming. ;)

5. ...that guy that posted the crappy map thinks he made a work of art when in fact he is eons away from anything remotely resembling a work of art. why not tell him the truth?



1. I am fine with yelling at the guy that keeps posting map after map after map, all done in paint, and all crappy. Im talking about the first-timers that see the foundry, attempt a map, and get pushed away by all the anger he recieves.

2. If the guy makes it in Paint, tell him to not use paint. That seems easy enough. No harsh words needed.

3. It takes less than 5 minutes to leave a relatively well-thought-out response that is at least not extremely cruel to the guy.

4. Yep. That WAS me that reported you. You are very welcome for it.

5. you CAN tell him the truth, just dont be cruel about it. just tell the guy that the map is not high enough quality and will need to be improved a lot for it to be accepted. No cruel words are needed here, either.
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