proposal: spreading foundry info to the world

[DiM]

i agree with cairnswk to an extent. the idea of letting people know about the foundry and giving them bits of info to attract them here is good but we need a way of doing this properly.

i suggest a sticky in the general discussion thread that is closed and contains only one post a developmental atlas. this sticky should be made by a mod (any mod that has powers in the general discussion) and updated constantly with help from the map makers via pm. let's say i have a new idea and start the map. i send the info by pm to the respective mod and he updates the thread and so on.

this way the thread is closed and nobody posts there.

if the thread is open then it will fill up with bullshit comments really soon and perhaps some really good comments will be lost among all the spam.


but if i look at the bigger picture i actually don't know if we should do this at all or even if a mod will accept this. the map foundry has it's own forum with a clear description of what goes on in that forum. if people choose not to click there and simply go to flames or other forums then it's their choice. it's not like this forum is hidden or something.

[yeti_c]

i agree with cairnswk to an extent. the idea of letting people know about the foundry and giving them bits of info to attract them here is good but we need a way of doing this properly.

i suggest a sticky in the general discussion thread that is closed and contains only one post a developmental atlas. this sticky should be made by a mod (any mod that has powers in the general discussion) and updated constantly with help from the map makers via pm. let's say i have a new idea and start the map. i send the info by pm to the respective mod and he updates the thread and so on.

this way the thread is closed and nobody posts there.

if the thread is open then it will fill up with bullshit comments really soon and perhaps some really good comments will be lost among all the spam.


but if i look at the bigger picture i actually don't know if we should do this at all or even if a mod will accept this. the map foundry has it's own forum with a clear description of what goes on in that forum. if people choose not to click there and simply go to flames or other forums then it's their choice. it's not like this forum is hidden or something.

Anything that is posted in GD should be limited to "Foundry Proper" and above I think...

C.

[DiM]

i agree with cairnswk to an extent. the idea of letting people know about the foundry and giving them bits of info to attract them here is good but we need a way of doing this properly.

i suggest a sticky in the general discussion thread that is closed and contains only one post a developmental atlas. this sticky should be made by a mod (any mod that has powers in the general discussion) and updated constantly with help from the map makers via pm. let's say i have a new idea and start the map. i send the info by pm to the respective mod and he updates the thread and so on.

this way the thread is closed and nobody posts there.

if the thread is open then it will fill up with bullshit comments really soon and perhaps some really good comments will be lost among all the spam.


but if i look at the bigger picture i actually don't know if we should do this at all or even if a mod will accept this. the map foundry has it's own forum with a clear description of what goes on in that forum. if people choose not to click there and simply go to flames or other forums then it's their choice. it's not like this forum is hidden or something.

Anything that is posted in GD should be limited to "Foundry Proper" and above I think...

C.

why? some people come and yell about things that should have been discussed when the map was still in the ideas stage. if i'm near final forge and a guy comes all of a sudden and tells me he would like to see less/more terits i would be kinda pissed since this is something that's discussed at the earliest stage of development.



also i want to see in that thread indications about posting and also indications about what is done in the different stages of each map.

for example

map ideas - discuss gameplay theme bonuses terits, etc
main foundry - discuss graphics and further refining of gameplay
final forge - nitpicking.

[yeti_c]

My main issue is that 75% of the maps in map ideas don't make it out...

Probably about 75% of the maps that do go onto FF and Q...

The "non regulars" have already complained about the amount of superfluous maps in "production"...

If they miss the first step then they're more likely to make comments on a map that counts...

If they enjoy this then they can foray into the ideas forum...

C.

[oaktown]

My main issue is that 75% of the maps in map ideas don't make it out...

Probably about 75% of the maps that do go onto FF and Q...

The "non regulars" have already complained about the amount of superfluous maps in "production"...

If they miss the first step then they're more likely to make comments on a map that counts...

If they enjoy this then they can foray into the ideas forum...

C.

I agree with this entirely, and much of what is posted in map ideas is superfluous to serious mapmaking. But the way the GD thread is set up makes it the responsibility of the mapmaker to post his/her map description including territories, special features, etc, and my guess is that 90% of users who start a new map idea aren't savvy enough to actually post there.

I'm thinking of this as a place in which mapmakers can advertise their products. It's not official, not regulated by a mod (which mod would want to take on this huge task anyway?), and if it dies from lack of use then so be it. At least nobody can accuse me of not trying to share my product with the rest of the CC users.

[rebelman]

*big long rambling rant*

(i decided to skip that part this time)

Oaktown great idea

I would go along with dim's guidelines bar no. 4 !!

Cairns you are making a real effort for new foundry posters like me and overall you seem to be doing a great job, pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeee stick with it.

As for pandering to a small few that are looking for this (I assume i am one of those referred to) - this is needed, the pattern of criticism of maps after quenching (way too late) has proved this beyond a shadow of a doubt.

If enough people bang their heads together a way can be found to make this plan workable without inflicting extra workload on anyone.

[yeti_c]

<reminiscing>
It's funny actually - when I first joined CC - the Foundry was one of the first places I looked in - that's cos I liked the look of the maps - and I wanted to see what was coming next...

My other place to visit was often the Suggestion forum too...

Then I started posting here and there...
</reminiscing>

C.

[khazalid]

well it looks like something good has come from our collective banging of heads, so i guess i should start moaning at the other forums more often...

[Coleman]

map ideas - discuss gameplay theme bonuses terits, etc
main foundry - discuss graphics and further refining of gameplay
final forge - nitpicking.

I think you've got something here. I'm going to pass this along.

Edit: We've changed the subtext on the sub-forums now. If anyone can come up with a better way of saying it let us know.

[AndyDufresne]

Good ideas all.

I'd like to encourage you guys to get the word about the Foundry out. The GD discussion topic about maps in development...I think is an excellent way to do so, if you guys can keep it up. I'll help support it any way I can.


--Andy

[cairnswk]

map ideas - discuss gameplay theme bonuses terits, etc
main foundry - discuss graphics and further refining of gameplay
final forge - nitpicking.

I think you've got something here. I'm going to pass this along.

Edit: We've changed the subtext on the sub-forums now. If anyone can come up with a better way of saying it let us know.

Coleman...Andy...Forum....I'm going to tack something on the bottom of this, and i am sorry it is another tirade....

1. I think it is a good idea to have some form of advertising in another forum to ensure the word gets out there about the maps in development. And this can be easily achieved through the re-working of the development atlas so that it is copied and pasted into a sticky that site at the top of these forums for everyone to see so that they have no excuse for not knowing what is begin developed.

2. I maintain that everyone who uses this site, has responsibility for their own paths of exploration and posting in every form that attend. Don't say to me, well we didn't know about the maps in development, when they are going to be "advertised" outside of the map foundry for those purposes. If you can jolly-well take the time to commit something on your keyboard to the flame wars or bugs/suggestions forums, then you can jolly-well take the interest in having a say in the map forum also...if that is such a big concern for you.

If you're going to have issues with map text/legibility or colours, or gameplay, then darn-well get in the Map Foundry and have your say when the maps are being developed.

Don't leave it until the map is up for gameplay and then whinge and whine about this or that when you have taken the incentive to have your feelings known in the first place while the map was in development.

I would hope that we're all adults here (or at least heading in that direction) and can take some responsibility for our own actions. You have no excuse for not attending the Map Foundry if you have any issues with gameplay or other stuff.

3. I think that Map Ideas and Main Foundry is a good go for DiM's suggestion as above.

But why do we wait until Final Forge to do the nitpicking?

Why can't this be done in the Foundry.

Final Forge should be the place the map reaches after it has all it's issues ironed out, and that includes text, gameplay, graphics, army shadow colour etc etc.

Final forge should be the respite place for the mapmaker, where all they have to attend to is the XML, and army centering issues and links for the map for loading.

Why is it that someone can come along when a map is in Final Forge and say this doesn't suit me re the gameplay, or I can't read the text. And look, i will say that i am not innocent here in this department. But for sure, it annoys the shit out the mapmakers.

If you have any issues, it should be your responsibility to work with the mapmaker to ensure that maps get all their issues ironed out before going to final forge. And this goes for Andy also.

How the hell he can come along after several weeks in Final Forge and say to a mapmaker, change this or i don't like that, is beyond me. Andy, you have a computer monitor and you use it also. It's your darn Foundry, get in their and see what is going on in the place and have your final say before the map goes into Final Forge.

There should be a period with this new development atlas sticky (if is gets used) where a map is ready for Final Forge, and it gets advertised that the map is going to be moved shortly....this can give punters the opportunity to have a last look at it and have any adjustments done before it goes to Final Forge. This would be like a quality control period.

I suggest that something like this is also implemented, so that punters out there know which maps are then coming online for play. But it still remains their responsibility to get into the Foundry to see what is happening with that map. If they don't take the initiative, then too f***ing bad i say. Once the map goes up for gameplay and you haven't had your say, then don't come back into the foundry and complain about something that doesn't suit you.

I'm sorry that this is so long, but everyone has their own obligations to get in the Map Foundry and see what is going on.

[cairnswk]

As for pandering to a small few that are looking for this (I assume i am one of those referred to) - this is needed, the pattern of criticism of maps after quenching (way too late) has proved this beyond a shadow of a doubt.

No rebelman...this was no targeted at you, but i think i have said enough in the above post.

[khazalid]

cairns - how about when a map is marked for final forge a note is added to the forthcoming sticky in general discussions and after that point there are exactly 3 days to lodge any complaints etc before it is moved to final forge. andy can adjudicate on whether the concerns etc are legitimate enough to warrant stalling the final forge process or not, otherwise i could come along and post any old bullshit and stall it for pretty much as long as i wanted.

hows that sound?

[DiM]

3. I think that Map Ideas and Main Foundry is a good go for DiM's suggestion as above.

But why do we wait until Final Forge to do the nitpicking?

Why can't this be done in the Foundry.

Final Forge should be the place the map reaches after it has all it's issues ironed out, and that includes text, gameplay, graphics, army shadow colour etc etc.

by nitpicking i mean everything is done regarding gameplay and graphics except for minor things like moving a shadow 2px to the left or making a glow on the text have 70% opacity instead of 80% or simply centering the coords. that's nitpicking. not coming and saying the bonuses are wrong or that the number of terits is too big.

[cairnswk]

cairns - how about when a map is marked for final forge a note is added to the forthcoming sticky in general discussions and after that point there are exactly 3 days to lodge any complaints etc before it is moved to final forge. andy can adjudicate on whether the concerns etc are legitimate enough to warrant stalling the final forge process or not, otherwise i could come along and post any old bullshit and stall it for pretty much as long as i wanted.

hows that sound?

khazalid...everything is up for grabs at present as far as i can see....but the problem is that:
a. andy doesn't get in here as often as the mods do
b. people still get their noses out of joint if there suggestions aren't taken into account and we'll still be back in the same old circle again that keeps going through the revolving door.

A period of at least 14 days is needed so that everyone has the same opporunity.

Some people only post once a week, others post every 5 seconds.
There has to be a line drawn at some stage and a cut-off point given....even if it is a date. We use dates for polls endings, so why not use dates for these sticky notices also.

[cairnswk]

3. I think that Map Ideas and Main Foundry is a good go for DiM's suggestion as above.

But why do we wait until Final Forge to do the nitpicking?

Why can't this be done in the Foundry.

Final Forge should be the place the map reaches after it has all it's issues ironed out, and that includes text, gameplay, graphics, army shadow colour etc etc.

by nitpicking i mean everything is done regarding gameplay and graphics except for minor things like moving a shadow 2px to the left or making a glow on the text have 70% opacity instead of 80% or simply centering the coords. that's nitpicking. not coming and saying the bonuses are wrong or that the number of terits is too big.

well DiM...i still think all those issues should be ironed out before reaching Final Forge. Opacity on text is a graphic issue as far as i can see, so why is it being discussed in Fonal Forge?

Moving some shadow 2 px to the left on an army shadow is Final Forge stuff, that why i said that the XML, army centering etc should be the stuff of FF.

[DiM]

3. I think that Map Ideas and Main Foundry is a good go for DiM's suggestion as above.

But why do we wait until Final Forge to do the nitpicking?

Why can't this be done in the Foundry.

Final Forge should be the place the map reaches after it has all it's issues ironed out, and that includes text, gameplay, graphics, army shadow colour etc etc.

by nitpicking i mean everything is done regarding gameplay and graphics except for minor things like moving a shadow 2px to the left or making a glow on the text have 70% opacity instead of 80% or simply centering the coords. that's nitpicking. not coming and saying the bonuses are wrong or that the number of terits is too big.

well DiM...i still think all those issues should be ironed out before reaching Final Forge. Opacity on text is a graphic issue as far as i can see, so why is it being discussed in Fonal Forge?

Moving some shadow 2 px to the left on an army shadow is Final Forge stuff, that why i said that the XML, army centering etc should be the stuff of FF.

well i consider nitpicking anything that doesn't require more than 2 minutes to do. changing an opacity or a color takes less than 2 minutes so i'm not bothered to do it in final forge.

[spinwizard]

Mah, it has been knowen for a long time that newcomers to the foundery are not welcome and their opinions are not taken seriously I would like to see u do something about this first!

[Elijah S]

cairns - how about when a map is marked for final forge a note is added to the forthcoming sticky in general discussions and after that point there are exactly 3 days to lodge any complaints etc before it is moved to final forge. andy can adjudicate on whether the concerns etc are legitimate enough to warrant stalling the final forge process or not, otherwise i could come along and post any old bullshit and stall it for pretty much as long as i wanted.

hows that sound?

khazalid...everything is up for grabs at present as far as i can see....but the problem is that:
a. andy doesn't get in here as often as the mods do
b. people still get their noses out of joint if there suggestions aren't taken into account and we'll still be back in the same old circle again that keeps going through the revolving door.

A period of at least 14 days is needed so that everyone has the same opporunity.

Some people only post once a week, others post every 5 seconds.
There has to be a line drawn at some stage and a cut-off point given....even if it is a date. We use dates for polls endings, so why not use dates for these sticky notices also.

I fully agree with all of this, especially the bit about Andy not getting in as often as should be expected of the Foundry Head.
In the two months that I've been working on my Civil War map he's commented twice...

Another thing I find interesting is that the major topic lately has been about making all CC members feel welcomed in th Foundry... and this coming after the creation of a clan that is exclusionary in its membership.
-And since I've not received a letter to join, I can only assume that this elite group considers themselves a cut above those whom they've excluded. (A point I could argue, but won't waste my time bagging on maps that have managed to get quenched).
My point here is that even within the Foundry there are cliques that serve to benefit only the agendas of its members... So I think that perhaps the recent posts regarding feeling "unwelcomed" in the Foundry is true to a degree.

I've even considered starting my own group, which will welcome ALL CC members, but have decided that creating further division within the Foundry would only contribute to the bitching and chaos that seems to have reached a crux over the past couple days.

The ONLY goals of the Foundry should be to create the best maps possible and to provide constructive help to fellow mapmakers.
We all thrive to develop the best maps we can, but it seems that too often input (usually negative) is placed in a thread solely as a way to promote the maps of the poster via the thumbnails placed at the bottom of their comments.
There's a time and place for self-promotion, but there's a less-than judicious attitude towards some of the newcomers that will eventually lead to all CC maps being designed by only a handful of mapmakers.

We can all learn from each other.
Even the new guy whose first attempt at cartography appears lacking may know or trick or two that can benefit all.

[Coleman]

Another thing I find interesting is that the major topic lately has been about making all CC members feel welcomed in th Foundry... and this coming after the creation of a clan that is exclusionary in its membership.
-And since I've not received a letter to join, I can only assume that this elite group considers themselves a cut above those whom they've excluded. (A point I could argue, but won't waste my time bagging on maps that have managed to get quenched).
My point here is that even within the Foundry there are cliques that serve to benefit only the agendas of its members... So I think that perhaps the recent posts regarding feeling "unwelcomed" in the Foundry is true to a degree.

Personally I'm glad you're here and getting more people like you would be wonderful.

For this section I've found I agree with you a bit and have found it best to discontinue my association with this group at the present, despite some minor grief that announcement caused in there. When I'm not in it they'll be happy to have a place to 'publically' complain about me without me seeing it. They just don't know it yet.

If they weren't being so selective I'd be more open to what they are doing, but oh well.

[mibi]

It's a clan, not a public toilet. We reserve the right to be exclusionary to maintain the standard of membership set forth. I suggest those who have issues have it with the structure and not content, and just clans in general. Perhaps the federal government should step in and make it possible for anyone to join any clans, membership requirements be damned.

Not like i care or anything.

[Coleman]

Not like i care or anything.

[oaktown]

It's a clan, not a public toilet.

LOL. Thanks for that.

I have to assume some responsibility for this... I brought up the idea of a mapmakers clan simply because I wanted an easy way to start some pick-up games with other mapmakers. I enjoy getting to play a map with the user who made it, because we get to nitpick gameplay and come up with ideas for how to make our next maps better. In most public games folks either don't like to talk, or they don't have any interest in talking about bonus structures. On the other hand, I know from my foundry experience that DiM likes to talk.

If you're concerned, I can promise you there's really nothing exciting going on in there.

Other than that, I don't really see how the foundry is clique-ish, nor that the "agenda of its members" is being served, as Elijah S suggests. I've been around for almost a year, and I don't feel as if I get any special treatment around here. And I am just as critical of, say, Cairns' maps as I am of anybody else's... perhaps more so, because I know he can take criticism and do something positive with it.

And even if everything that has been said in this thread is true about the foundry and its regulars, I still don't hear anybody making any real suggestions.

[Coleman]

And even if everything that has been said in this thread is true about the foundry and its regulars, I still don't hear anybody making any real suggestions.

That's the problem at hand. I think your list is a great start, and it might even be enough, but I think changing minds is the real answer, and that will take a lot of time.

[spiesr]

To a certain extent the foundry people are like minded. Those who disagree with the foundry people don't last long be fore they give up on the foundry. The foundry mindset is differnt than the general population mindset...