Central America - gameplay discussion thread

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Central America - gameplay discussion thread

Postby oaktown on Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:41 pm

This is the map that we are currently using for the amateur mapmakers competition. In the interest of simplicity we had suspended the gameplay talk, as we don't want to change the conditions of the competition mid-stream. The map will remain as-is for the competition, so any gameplay changes we come up with will have to be made by the winning mapmaker after the competition has concluded.

Now that the competition is underway and the maps submitted, it seems like we can at least discuss gameplay concerns... any thoughts?

Click image to enlarge.
image


The basics:
32 territories
7 bonus zones (the Central American countries)
Classic gameplay, no tricks
Ports connect, as noted
Last edited by oaktown on Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:52 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Reason: competition
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Re: Central America: A Group Project

Postby edbeard on Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:08 pm

seems like we have a lot of smaller maps being made lately

I wish you'd do this one with the 'standard' 42 territories. whether that means attaching 'ships' and making this a somewhat historical type map ala my C.I. map or something I'm not sure.
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Re: Central America: A Group Project

Postby bbqpenguin on Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:11 pm

one thing, it'll be extremely difficult to get from the north to the south point of the map, considering the amount of territories in between and the amount of chokepoints. you may want to consider someway to make passage from panama to beliz easier

for an example, look at the helipads on the Malta map
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Re: Central America: A Group Project

Postby oaktown on Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:47 am

bbqpenguin wrote:one thing, it'll be extremely difficult to get from the north to the south point of the map, considering the amount of territories in between and the amount of chokepoints. you may want to consider someway to make passage from panama to beliz easier

Ports, perhaps?

Belize City, Puerto Cortez in Honduras (the territory bordering Guatemala), Limon in Costa Rica (borders Panama) and Colon, Panama? It'll create a north-south route with two southern access points and two northern access points. It would also give Panama a much needed third border to protect, while the other three territories are already borders.

edbeard wrote:seems like we have a lot of smaller maps being made lately

Agreed, and I'm usually the first to criticize them, but work with me - I have big plans for this map. ;)
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Re: Central America: A Group Project

Postby bbqpenguin on Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:21 am

oaktown wrote:
bbqpenguin wrote:one thing, it'll be extremely difficult to get from the north to the south point of the map, considering the amount of territories in between and the amount of chokepoints. you may want to consider someway to make passage from panama to beliz easier

Ports, perhaps?

Belize City, Puerto Cortez in Honduras (the territory bordering Guatemala), Limon in Costa Rica (borders Panama) and Colon, Panama? It'll create a north-south route with two southern access points and two northern access points. It would also give Panama a much needed third border to protect, while the other three territories are already borders.



ports sound great, though i'll have to check an see where you put them. i'm a little rusty in my central american geography but as long as there's one pair on the east and west coast it should work out ok
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Re: Central America: A Group Project

Postby oaktown on Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:38 am

bbqpenguin wrote:ports sound great, though i'll have to check an see where you put them. i'm a little rusty in my central american geography but as long as there's one pair on the east and west coast it should work out ok

The ports I'd listed were all Caribbean ports, but two on each side would certainly simplify the attack routes. Quick search of the Pacific nations' busiest ports turn up Puerto Quetzal, Guatemala; Corinto, Nicaragua; Caldera/Puntarenas, Costa Rica; and, well, Panama City. Seems the Pacific ports don't see the level of activity of those on the east coast, i suspect because they grew up earlier to support trade with the homelands of the European settlers/conquerors.

Actually, the panama city/colon port could be both a Pacific and Atlantic port, with connections on both sides, thus representing control of the Canal. Hmm? It means we can lose the silly attack route connecting the two Panama territories.

Edit: Something like this...
Click image to enlarge.
image
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Re: Central America: A Group Project

Postby ZeakCytho on Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:15 pm

What's the group making this?

Gameplay wise, I won't make a whole big post until I see what ports you've put in, but this map looks like it could have good gameplay.
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Re: Central America: A Group Project

Postby oaktown on Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:18 pm

ZeakCytho wrote:What's the group making this?

We are, Zeak... you, me, and whoever else comes along. Right now I'm looking for community input on the gameplay, and later my community plans for the graphics will be revealed. ;)
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Re: Central America: A Group Project

Postby bbqpenguin on Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:04 pm

oaktown wrote:
ZeakCytho wrote:What's the group making this?

We are, Zeak... you, me, and whoever else comes along. Right now I'm looking for community input on the gameplay, and later my community plans for the graphics will be revealed. ;)



why is beliz +2 and salvador +1? seems like salvador would be the harder one to hold...

edit: just noticed belize has 3 (or 4) terries
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Re: Central America: A Group Project

Postby edbeard on Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:40 pm

Is Belize 3 or 4 territories?

Is the colouring of the island just off the Honduras continent on purpose for significance or just a mistake?

Inital bonus thoughts...

Guatemala: +3 is right.

Belize - +1. why? well 3 terr (I think) and 2 borders. yea. it's probably a +2 but expansion is really easy. holding Belize and Guatemala will be a cinch. An 8 territory continent with 2 borders as a +5? +4 seems a bit better

El Salvador: +1 so easy from the drop and it only has 3 places to attack it. Honduras owner can swallow this up easily too.

Honduras: +4. 4 borders, 6 terr and El Salvador is an easy add.

Nicaragua: 5 Obviously the toughest but not tougher than Honduras-El Salvador combo.

Costa Rica, Panama: this is where things get dicey. The combo is 9 territories with 3 borders and a +6 as you currently have it. I'd say these are easier to hold than any of the other combos which add up to +5 or just Nicaragua which itself is a +5. But, Costa Rica as a standalone might be a +4. 4 terr, 4 borders, 4 attack it. Panama is a +3 though.

I'm not really sure what to do there. The +6 for the combo seems too high but the standalone bonuses might be apt. Costa Rica would be too powerful if made a +4 and you can't add more borders to Panama to make the combo harder to hold. 3 borders is quite low though. Is it a benefit or a detriment to have both the Ports on one territory? I guess it'd depend on the specific game.


In short, your bonuses seem fine. I think I only differ with your current ones on Belize. I'm really not sure about the south though. More time to think and/or more opinions needed. I guess one solution would be just to give Belize and El Salvador +2 and increase the Nicaragua bonus by 1 up to 6. This might even out the map a bit. I'm not sure I like that solution though.
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Re: Central America: A Group Project

Postby MrBenn on Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:38 pm

I'm not too keen on the ports - I'd rather see an attack route over the ocean. The labeling of ports is one of the things that bugs me about New World, as I can't forgive myself for not realising that The Pacific/Atlantic ports didn't connect...

I like the Panama Canal idea - it works well.

Is the cyan island off Honduras a region/zone/whatever?
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Re: Central America: A Group Project

Postby samuelc812 on Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:33 pm

I thought Mexico was part of Central America??
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Re: Central America: A Group Project

Postby oaktown on Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:09 pm

samuelc812 wrote:I thought Mexico was part of Central America??

Well, it is and it isn't depending on whom you ask... wikipedia to the rescue!

Central America is considered a region of the North American continent. Geopolitically, it usually comprises seven countries – Belize, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Panama. Mexico, in whole or in part, is occasionally included.

I'll post an update shortly that sorts out what is/is not a territory.
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Re: Central America: A Group Project

Postby oaktown on Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:31 pm

As promised...

Click image to enlarge.
image


Remember, NO GRAPHICS COMMENTS. I'm just doing the gameplay.

Belize: +1 or +2? I can go either way on that one. It may be as easy a hold as El Salvador, since El Salv has more neighbors. Discuss.

I stuck seas routes in there for Benn, but the final style of those attack routes can be sorted out by the map's designer.

What I would absolutely love is if somebody with more knowledge of the area (I've never been south of "G4") could suggest names for the territories. [-o<
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Re: Central America: A Group Project, ver 3

Postby edbeard on Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:34 pm

so basically you're just doing the same thing as I'm doing with L&W? I had thought of holding a 'contest' after getting the gameplay stamp but it seems unlikely that there'd be any near enough interest for that. Maybe you'll have enough for this map.
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Re: Central America: A Group Project

Postby oaktown on Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:49 pm

Sorry to triple post in my own thread, but my mind is on this so here we go.

edbeard wrote:Belize - +1. why? well 3 terr (I think) and 2 borders. yea. it's probably a +2 but expansion is really easy. holding Belize and Guatemala will be a cinch. An 8 territory continent with 2 borders as a +5? +4 seems a bit better

Agreed - alone I can go either way, but once you start coupling regions the lower bonus makes more sense.

edbeard wrote:Costa Rica, Panama: this is where things get dicey. The combo is 9 territories with 3 borders and a +6 as you currently have it. I'd say these are easier to hold than any of the other combos which add up to +5 or just Nicaragua which itself is a +5. But, Costa Rica as a standalone might be a +4. 4 terr, 4 borders, 4 attack it. Panama is a +3 though.

I'm not really sure what to do there. The +6 for the combo seems too high but the standalone bonuses might be apt. Costa Rica would be too powerful if made a +4 and you can't add more borders to Panama to make the combo harder to hold. 3 borders is quite low though.

Another option that I'll put on the table is adding a territory to Panama, by adding maybe the islands off the south coast (Isla de Coiba et. al.). If Panama were six territories but still with three borders I think that would work as a +3, and it would make the Costa Rica/Panama combination a 10 territory +6. It would still be the highest two-region combo and an easy one to hold with the three borders, but at ten territories with no quickie +1 bonus it would also be the hardest (and in most games the last) two region combo to be wrapped up.
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Re: Central America: A Group Project, ver 3

Postby ZeakCytho on Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:39 pm

I think Belize should be a +1. It will be really easy to get, and as has been pointed out, expansion from it is also very easy. Plus, many of the other bonuses seem low. So a +1 should be fine for it.
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Re: Central America: A Group Project, ver 3

Postby yeti_c on Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:40 am

Er if this is Central America -> Where's Mexico?

C.

EDIT : So this may be why...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_America

*Some* places think Mexico is part of Central America - but Geographically - it isn't.

C.
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Re: Central America: A Group Project, ver 3

Postby mibi on Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:48 pm

It seems the people who start at either end willhave an advantage because their backs are against the wall so they can expand, where as someone who started primarily in the middle will be beseiged by the time they ever got one of those large bonus areas wrapped up.

Maybe there should be a smaller bonus area in the middle, or at least a way for someone in the middle to get out of the way via a sea route.
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Re: Central America: A Group Project, ver 3

Postby MrBenn on Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:03 am

I think the advantage is more confined to somebody with a Northern start, as Belize is cornered away... Panama has the attack routes linking it to the Northern half of the map, and El Salvador is another small bonus at the top.

A smaller region in the Western part of Nicaragua would help... but I can't see where you would put it.
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Re: Central America: A Group Project, ver 3

Postby oaktown on Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:40 pm

Click image to enlarge.
image


Changes worth noting:

• Redrew the borders of Costa Rica, now that I've actually looked at how the really regions sit. All territories are still borders, but now there are three northern borders.

• Moved the southern Pacific port up to Costa Rica. The player who controls Panama can no longer disrupt life on both coasts up north.

Together these two moves have a big effect on the balance of power in the south. It makes the Costa Rica + Panama group a 9 territory, 5 border, +6, which I think is much improved (it was only three borders).

• Put a mountain range in above El Salvador; this doesn't change the fact that both territories are borders, but it has two enemies on its borders rather than three. Not sure what this does for gameplay really, but it gets you thinking about the possibility of other mountain ranges that could help some border situations. Yes, that's a borrowed mountain range from the India map. :)

• Belize is +1... the concern was not so much that Belize was too high, but that when coupled with Guatemala it would be too high, so I think this makes sense.

For those that think that a northern start is beneficial, I would counter by saying that if you start in Belize and try to expand into Guatemala, you'll be fighting the player that started with El Salvador and who wants to do the same... and vice-versa.

While there may be a similar fight between a Costa Rica player and a Panama player, in my opinion the map favored a southern start until the above changes.
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Re: Central America: A Group Project, ver 3

Postby ZeakCytho on Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:47 pm

Gameplay looks pretty solid to me. But I'm not a big fan of the mountain impassable. I'm just not sure the benefit to gameplay outweighs the reality of the region - the mountains there are not nearly as large as mountains north and east of there that are missing from the map. All the mountains do are reduce the number of territories that can attack El Salvador by one...that just doesn't seem very important to me.

Now, who's going to be doing graphics for this? Is it going to be a competition, or what?
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Re: Central America: A Group Project, ver 3

Postby oaktown on Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:50 pm

ZeakCytho wrote:I'm not a big fan of the mountain impassable.

Yeah, it's like i said, I'm not sure what it does for gameplay. Maybe nothing good.

ZeakCytho wrote:Now, who's going to be doing graphics for this? Is it going to be a competition, or what?

That's what I was thinking, but with a twist... you'll see, if this map ever gets to that point. ;)
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Re: Central America: A Group Project, ver 4

Postby bbqpenguin on Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:26 am

i'll direct you here for inspiration for honduras territ names

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Departments_of_Honduras

and here for guatamala

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Departments_of_Guatemala
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Re: Central America: A Group Project, ver 4

Postby oaktown on Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:15 am

bbqpenguin wrote:i'll direct you here for inspiration for honduras territ names

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Departments_of_Honduras

and here for guatamala

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Departments_of_Guatemala

Been there - trouble is there are like 16 departments in guatemala, for example, and I only need a few names. Wikipedia is no substitute for actual knowledge.
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