Jury Discussion- POLL

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Are Jurys a good idea?

Poll ended at Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:52 pm

YES!
6
43%
no
8
57%
No but I am just un-happy because they won't let me be on one
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 14

Re: I feel that...

Postby the.killing.44 on Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:32 pm

What you said's all true, but when you first made the Oakland - Graphic Novel map:

OP - by oaktown » Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:25 pm
1 - by the.killing.44 » Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:27 pm
2 - by qwert » Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:29 pm
3 - by MrBenn » Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:42 pm
4 - by ZeakCytho » Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:46 pm
5 - by Incandenza » Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:22 am
6 - by cairnswk » Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:19 am
7 - by bbqpenguin » Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:30 am
8 - by OnlyAmbrose » Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:59 am
9 - by RjBeals » Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:04 pm
10 - by Natewolfman » Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:15 pm
11 - by whitestazn88 » Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:09 pm

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Re: I feel that...

Postby oaktown on Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:43 pm

the.killing.44 wrote:What you said's all true, but when you first made the Oakland - Graphic Novel map...

was that me, the map, or the idea? hard to say.

I think that it could be said that some mapmakers begin with more polished drafts than others, and thus are able to attract more attention early on. That particular map (Oakland) started out pretty cool looking - if I do say so myself - though I'm not sure I have the skills to take it where I would like it to eventually go. RjBeals and Widowmakers have both made first drafts that look about as good as many mapmakers' final drafts; the Centrescape competition is an excellent example - both Rj and Widow had very finished-looking entries.

I certainly don't mean to toot my own horn - I've had many absolutely awful looking first drafts. (Los Angeles? What was I thinking?!?) But having quenched a few maps and abandoned many more I've figured a lot out and put a lot of mistakes behind me. I can throw together a simple first draft in under an hour that still has smooth borders, clean text, and good territory spacing. Taking that first draft the extra yard and making it quenchable is still a ton of work.
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Re: I feel that...

Postby mibi on Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:16 pm

You can't make a pie with robot arms.
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Re: I feel that...

Postby RjBeals on Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:27 pm

mibi wrote:You can't make a pie with robot arms.


eh.. you're losing it mibi.
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Re: I feel that...

Postby The Neon Peon on Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:33 pm

the.killing.44, can you please stop pointing out every map thread that gets abandoned or not posted it?

Let's face it, not every map is good, and not every map is interesting to everyone, so please stop going around and saying "the foundry is dead" in every post then pointing out maps that have no more needed to be done to them.

It is like complaining that no one is posting in a thread where all they are doing is waiting for a gameplay element to be added to the xml. If a map is not good, no one posts. If no one is interested in a map, no one posts, if the map is dead then certain people should just face the truth that the map is not going to meet the standards which are set.

Sorry about being rude, but this is really starting to tick me off.
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Re: I feel that...

Postby the.killing.44 on Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:35 pm

You're really missing my point …
I'm not saying the Foundry is dead map-wise — quite the opposite, as the newest maps that keep coming in and out better as they come — I'm saying that the Foundry is losing the comments that it had, like I pointed out from May '08.

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Re: I feel that...

Postby The Neon Peon on Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:39 pm

the.killing.44 wrote:You're really missing my point …
I'm not saying the Foundry is dead map-wise — quite the opposite, as the newest maps that keep coming in and out better as they come — I'm saying that the Foundry is losing the comments that it had, like I pointed out from May '08.

.44

That is what I am talking about.

You show examples of dead maps and then complain that they are not getting enough comments... seriously...
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Re: I feel that...

Postby the.killing.44 on Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:41 pm

Once again, no.

I am saying that in May, there were comments coming onto maps in magnitude like I pointed out using examples from May. Now, the Foundry has slowed down comments-wise on new maps. I am not pointing out that there should be a ton of comments on a Quenched map or a Vacationed/Abandoned one, but rather that in maps in progress (especially new ones) there isn't the feedback by number of posters nor number of posts that there were previously.

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Re: I feel that...

Postby The Neon Peon on Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:54 pm

the.killing.44 wrote:Once again, no.

I am saying that in May, there were comments coming onto maps in magnitude like I pointed out using examples from May. Now, the Foundry has slowed down comments-wise on new maps. I am not pointing out that there should be a ton of comments on a Quenched map or a Vacationed/Abandoned one, but rather that in maps in progress (especially new ones) there isn't the feedback by number of posters nor number of posts that there were previously.

.44

I quite disagree. The amount of comments you get is solely up to the map maker.

You pointed out some very good maps, and they got a lot of comments. Now look at the Balcans map... growing more than a page a day. Look at the Jamaca map, also got many comments so far, your own example of Oakland's map which was just a month back, Gallipoli and Gilgamesh get 2 comments a day, and then there are several more replies in every active thread within the main foundry when I log on.

There are plenty of comments going around by more and more people.
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Re: I feel that...

Postby the.killing.44 on Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:08 pm

I agree on some points and disagree on others. For one, I pointed out oak's map because I was saying that CAs' maps get comments because of the blue and what comes with that. Yes, the Balkans map is very active (and I'm a part of that). And of course, maps get more and more comments as they progress (but that's a different issue).

However, you did state some false things. For one, the last comment on Gallipoli was on January 19th by cairns himself — a week ago. The last comment on Gilgamesh was on January 22nd, four days ago. So that comment itself is false. Now to contradict that, what I was pointing out was the amount of feedback OPs get, which is what I said from Oakland and Pearl Harbor. That applies to all the maps you said — Gallipoli (slowed down), Gilgamesh (slowed down), and Jamaica (still in its beginnings). But no, we do not know what will happen to Jamaica.

But, you were right on one thing — the amount of comments is up to the maker (to an extent). Gilg. and Gall. have slowed down because there have been no updates. And the opposite applies to Jamaica, where it is in its first stages so obviously the versions are in the lowest numbers.

But like Incandenza said on Poison Rome:
Incandenza wrote:Hell, no one gets tons of responses in their map threads any more. … Remember when you started, it was basically you, me, and yeti for like 3 pages...


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Re: I feel that...

Postby wcaclimbing on Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:49 pm

More maps in development = less comments per map.
Makes sense to me. The foundry isn't dead.

sailorseal wrote: There needs to be some sort of set process for the formation of maps, not just they advance as the CAs deem it time. I think there needs to be standards set.

There is a process. It just isn't being followed for some of the maps in development.
how to make a map wrote:Map Idea
All maps start life in the foundry as an idea in the "Map Ideas" sub forum. Here maps must gain their ideas stamp before being moved into full production in the main foundry.

Drafts Stamp:
1)The map, first and foremost, must have some sort of clear plan of how production will go
2) Have a playable image. If we quenched it people should be able to play on it. This should included the following:
    Territory names
    Working legends
    Speculative Bonuses
    Tentative Border Divisions
3) The working image needs to be beyond rough draft state. This means that you must provide the following:
    A working image done in some kind of graphic software. Pencil drawn images and images done on paint will not be accpected.
    Two quality updates must be provided.
4) Have honest and interested discussion. Not just you and three friends.
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Re: I feel that...

Postby the.killing.44 on Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:50 pm

If we go by that description of the Draft stamp, there would be a ton more maps in the Foundry Proper or at least in Adv. Draft stage. Good thing?

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Re: I feel that...

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:23 pm

i say that it will get maps moving faster, but it might add to the work of mods and others
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Re: I feel that...

Postby oaktown on Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:28 pm

the.killing.44 wrote:You're really missing my point … I'm saying that the Foundry is losing the comments that it had, like I pointed out from May '08.

Wait, then you turned around and gave an example from just one month ago (the Oakland thread) in which there were a ton of posts in the first day. So the activity isn't dropping, it's just that some maps don't get the same level of activity as the example you gave from last May, while others have.

The requirements to graduate from the Drafting Room is a problem. At first glance they are quite objective, but if you look at the wording they actually allow for a good deal of subjectivity: two quality updates must be provided (what's a quality update?), interested discussion (how much interest, and from how many people?), etc. If you ask me, the standards for getting out of Drafts need to be more explicitly subjective, not less. A map can have all of the things needed to be playable but still look like crap.

Anyhow, I'm kicking around an idea that will make the Drafts process more democratic and transparent... more to come.
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Re: I feel that...

Postby the.killing.44 on Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:31 pm

oaktown wrote:Wait, then you turned around and gave an example from just one month ago (the Oakland thread) in which there were a ton of posts in the first day. So the activity isn't dropping, it's just that some maps don't get the same level of activity as the example you gave from last May, while others have.

Yes, but that was to my point about CAs' threads getting more comments … which led to the point that v1s get comments but slow down … which led to the (concurred) point that it is partly up to the maker for comments.

Anyway, I agree with your points on the Drafting Room ;)

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Re: I feel that...

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:32 pm

oaktown wrote:
the.killing.44 wrote:You're really missing my point … I'm saying that the Foundry is losing the comments that it had, like I pointed out from May '08.

Wait, then you turned around and gave an example from just one month ago (the Oakland thread) in which there were a ton of posts in the first day. So the activity isn't dropping, it's just that some maps don't get the same level of activity as the example you gave from last May, while others have.

The requirements to graduate from the Drafting Room is a problem. At first glance they are quite objective, but if you look at the wording they actually allow for a good deal of subjectivity: two quality updates must be provided (what's a quality update?), interested discussion (how much interest, and from how many people?), etc. If you ask me, the standards for getting out of Drafts need to be more explicitly subjective, not less. A map can have all of the things needed to be playable but still look like crap.

Anyhow, I'm kicking around an idea that will make the Drafts process more democratic and transparent... more to come.

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Re: I feel that...

Postby yeti_c on Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:41 pm

Short and Sharp as that's all I have time for.

At the moment it seems like the CA's are getting it from both sides.

New Map Makers | CA's | Veteran Mapmakers

The CA's are doing a great job from both sides - people need to pull their heads out of their arses and let them get on with it - because guess what - creating topics and angst in the foundry actually means they have LESS time to do their (voluntary) jobs in the foundry.

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Re: I feel that...

Postby oaktown on Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:45 pm

the.killing.44 wrote:Yes, but that was to my point about CAs' threads getting more comments … which led to the point that v1s get comments but slow down … which led to the (concurred) point that it is partly up to the maker for comments.

We can argue this one in circles for days and get nowhere. Does anybiody have any concrete suggestions? Because we're all in this together.
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Re: I feel that...

Postby oaktown on Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:27 pm

funny how this thread is active right up until I ask for suggestions. Nothing?
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Re: I feel that...

Postby the.killing.44 on Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:31 pm

It's not a suggestion, but I just want to link peope to this thread. I was reading it, and there are some amazing comments that apply today. It's about DiM, yes, but most comments are on the Foundry in general. Inc and DiM in particular has some great comments in there.
DiM wrote:i haven't turned my back on the foundry as i will continue to give feedback whenever i have time. i have just decided to stop making maps. as for the disgust it certainly isn't so. it's more of a feeling of sadness. i'm sad the foundry has turned into what it is now, perhaps it's my fault that i can't adapt to it's new form, i don't know.
point is i started making maps for fun, it was a method of relaxation. now i no longer feel this. map making seems more of a burden and honestly i can't be productive in such an environment.
i really don' know who's to blame or even if somebody should be blamed.
i always saw the foundry as one big family with it's inherent ups and downs with moments of happiness as well as fights. but in the end all the problems had a solution and as the foundry as a whole worked together towards a common goal.
now i have the feeling that this family no longer exists. some people only stick to their own maps other roam around spamming every thread and not helping anybody, feedback is scarce and hard to find through all the trash posts.
i miss the mile long posts where one guy analyzed the whole gameplay of a map, i miss the times when people came with a graphic solution to the problem they saw. now people just say "it sucks" or "i love it" and the constructive feedback is limited to a few words like "move the X border there" or "give that continent a +3 instead of a +4"
perhaps people don't have time or perhaps people don't want to spend 30 minutes writing a huge post that will probably be ignored between dozens of spam posts or simply dismissed by map maker.
the foundry seems like it has lost the passion it once had. people no longer put their heart into what they write, it's like everything has turned into a boring routine. 10 "i like it" posts and the map has support. 2-3 measly updates based on 3 comments and the map gets a stamp, etc.
think of the foundry as a small shop that makes little wood decorations. they make just a few each day but they are works of art because the sweat the heart and the soul of the artist are concentrated into those few decorations. the artist carvs each piece of wood with great attention and the family sits besides him and guides him towards the final product. then a rich guy buys the little shop, makes everything automated and the factory churns out hundreds of wood carvings each day. they are nice but they aren't spectacular. it's quantity over quality.
now i'm not saying the maps produced now are bad, luckily the foundry has not turned into a factory...yet. luckily we still have impressive artists around but the family no longer stands by them as a guidance. they are alone and the rich guy is just around the corner.


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Re: I feel that...

Postby gimil on Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:59 pm

I have a high believe in what DiM had to say that day. Unfortuantly this is a situtaion with no real solution or ability to control. Unless we have people who want to be part of a family we will never have the foundry that we used to.

Right now all I see the CA's and the community. The CA's have been doing things the way they have always done things but the community seem to get frustrated with this and decide to point the finger and blame CA's of not doing things the way they should be done. It is a sad state of affairs to be honest since the CA's arn't here to be power hungrey or intentional dick heads. They are here to help make the process run and to help map makers, not hinder them.
What do you know about map making, bitch?

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Re: I feel that...

Postby sailorseal on Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:20 pm

I agree with what that guy said and that is exactly why I am having trouble motivating myself to continue. I think maybe the CAs could be a little more lenient. I mean what does it hurt to have another map? Also there is a far to negative environment and this is something I can't blame on the CAs. People are too defensive about there maps and therefore go around making mean and unnecessary comments on other maps, to change this i would just make the whole process a little easier...
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Re: I feel that...

Postby gimil on Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:59 am

sailorseal wrote:I agree with what that guy said and that is exactly why I am having trouble motivating myself to continue. I think maybe the CAs could be a little more lenient. I mean what does it hurt to have another map? Also there is a far to negative environment and this is something I can't blame on the CAs. People are too defensive about there maps and therefore go around making mean and unnecessary comments on other maps, to change this i would just make the whole process a little easier...


Making the process 'easier' and 'lenient' is where people start getting lazy and we start producing sub standard maps. with something like 120+ maps on CC 'having just another map' isn't a good thing. I certainly don't want to be remebered as the CA that let standards and quality fall after years of high quality production.
What do you know about map making, bitch?

natty_dread wrote:I was wrong


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Re: I feel that...

Postby wcaclimbing on Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:20 am

Each new map only sets the standard higher for all the newer maps.
That standard won't be decreasing any time soon. I don't think many people around here would be satisfied with seeing a bunch of less-than-perfect maps make it though the foundry if the rules are made 'more lenient'.
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Re: I feel that...

Postby oaktown on Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:16 pm

sailorseal wrote:I think maybe the CAs could be a little more lenient...

I don't think we should be more "lenient" (leniency suggests letter folks skate by without following the rules) but I agree that our rules and expectations have been ramped up too much lately. We're discussing many possible solutions, some of which we hope to roll out soon.

sailorseal wrote:People are too defensive about there maps and therefore go around making mean and unnecessary comments on other maps, to change this i would just make the whole process a little easier...

There are two issues here: the first is that mapmakers are too defensive and don't always accept criticism as they should, and the second is that many folks don't know how to provide constructive criticism. If I am critical of a map, I try to include some specific steps that the mapmaker can take to address the issue rather than saying "this map sucks, walk away from it now." And when I get that kind of feedback I ignore it, because it is entirely thoughtless.

I am of agreement that we should be producing more, not fewer, maps in the foundry. But it has been noted that we do have pretty high standards here these days, and I think that our high standards are what keeps CC one notch better than competitors... competitors who rip off our maps, I should add.
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