Jury Discussion- POLL

Topics that are not maps. Discuss general map making concepts, techniques, contests, etc, here.

Moderators: Cartographers, Global Moderators

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Are Jurys a good idea?

Poll ended at Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:52 pm

YES!
6
43%
no
8
57%
No but I am just un-happy because they won't let me be on one
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 14

Re: I feel that...

Postby sailorseal on Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:48 am

The Jury has made great comments on Oak's map, just go and look
User avatar
Cook sailorseal
 
Posts: 2738
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 1:49 pm
Location: conquerclub.com
Medals: 27
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Ratings Achievement (3)
Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (1) Tournament Contribution (7) General Contribution (3)

Re: I feel that...

Postby oaktown on Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:37 am

For starters, the jury I put in place for my map was just a test case, and the timing was convenient because I can't stamp my own map anyway.

My hope behind the jury idea is to address some of the points made above...

First, it gets more folks involved in the critical feedback end of the process. When that thread was stickied it sat for 48 hours without a peep, but now suddenly everyone has an opinion about the map. Some of the suggestions made had already been discussed and shot down earlier in development, but that's just part of the Foundry process and I can deal.

Second, it does indeed give the mapmaker more people to "yell at," but it's always easier to point the finger at one person than a group. If one person tells me that something is the wrong color it is easier to ignore than if four people do. Concerns raised at this point need to be taken seriously and addressed, because once a map hits the Forge nobody looks at it anymore (which in my opinion is the way it should be - a map should be all but finished when it is thrown into the Forge).

Third, it makes that stamp more meaningful. The Forge stamp that I've been handing out for the past two months is little more than a formality - you get the gameplay and graphics stamp, sit atop the Foundry for two weeks with nobody saying anything, then you move on. And some maps move on with flaws, which we then hear about (why the hell was this map Forged??).

Clearly the system isn't perfect. The jury members need more specific guidelines (I gave them none just to see what would go wrong), and there will be bumps down the road. But it's worth toying with.
User avatar
Captain oaktown
 
Posts: 4552
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:24 pm
Location: majorcommand
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Fog of War Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (1) General Achievement (1) Map Contribution (12)
General Contribution (5)

Re: I feel that...

Postby sailorseal on Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:10 pm

oaktown wrote:Clearly the system isn't perfect. The jury members need more specific guidelines (I gave them none just to see what would go wrong), and there will be bumps down the road. But it's worth toying with.


Just to add on in defense of the Jury, I really did not have a full grasp of what Oak wanted. When I got the PM, I thought oh no "Jury Summons", what kind of trouble am I in. After reading the PM, I felt like he wanted feedback then a vote on whether or not it should move on. I had many small comments to make but I still thought it should move to the Forge. Then I learned I had to choose one option so I was forced to say I think it needs to stay in the Main Foundry. I would prefer to go with a "both" option but if it's one or the other I have to vote to keep you in the Main Foundry Oak...
User avatar
Cook sailorseal
 
Posts: 2738
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 1:49 pm
Location: conquerclub.com
Medals: 27
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Ratings Achievement (3)
Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (1) Tournament Contribution (7) General Contribution (3)

Re: I feel that...

Postby oaktown on Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:55 pm

sailorseal wrote:When I got the PM, I thought oh no "Jury Summons", what kind of trouble am I in.

You weren't in trouble then, but now that you've voted no on my map... :twisted:

sailorseal wrote:After reading the PM, I felt like he wanted feedback then a vote on whether or not it should move on. I had many small comments to make but I still thought it should move to the Forge. Then I learned I had to choose one option so I was forced to say I think it needs to stay in the Main Foundry. I would prefer to go with a "both" option but if it's one or the other I have to vote to keep you in the Main Foundry Oak...

right - the whole idea is that if somebody in the FOundry still has questions or concerns about a map, it shouldn't be Forged yet. Once a map hits the Forge the mapmaker should be free to complete the XML and map coordinates, which is impossibleto do if you're moving things around and changing bonuses.

That particular map (Eastern Hemisphere) has received more feedback in the past two days than it had in the previous two months. If nothing else, the Jury Duty process would bring in a few new fresh eyes to look at a map.
User avatar
Captain oaktown
 
Posts: 4552
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:24 pm
Location: majorcommand
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Fog of War Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (1) General Achievement (1) Map Contribution (12)
General Contribution (5)

Re: I feel that...

Postby sailorseal on Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:07 pm

oaktown wrote:
sailorseal wrote:When I got the PM, I thought oh no "Jury Summons", what kind of trouble am I in.

You weren't in trouble then, but now that you've voted no on my map... :twisted:

Sorry Oak but you need to make a few more changes...
User avatar
Cook sailorseal
 
Posts: 2738
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 1:49 pm
Location: conquerclub.com
Medals: 27
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Ratings Achievement (3)
Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (1) Tournament Contribution (7) General Contribution (3)

Re: Jury Discussion

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:52 pm

so is this jury thing still active, or did it die out after the test drive, i think it is a good idea, and it would work to have a different group of jurys for different maps, just wondering if it was going to continues or not
sailorseal wrote:My big boy banana was out the whole time :D
AndyDufresne wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:Many Happy Bananas to everyone, lets party...with Bananas.
--Andy
Forever linked at the hip's-banana! (That sounds strange, don't quote me.)
Sergeant LED ZEPPELINER
 
Posts: 1088
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:09 pm
Medals: 11
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (3)

Re: Jury Discussion

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:36 am

I see that the jury is still active, but just wondering, there is a jury for moving maps from main foundry to final forge, but is there, or will there be one for moving maps from the drafting room to the main foundry, because i think that would help
sailorseal wrote:My big boy banana was out the whole time :D
AndyDufresne wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:Many Happy Bananas to everyone, lets party...with Bananas.
--Andy
Forever linked at the hip's-banana! (That sounds strange, don't quote me.)
Sergeant LED ZEPPELINER
 
Posts: 1088
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:09 pm
Medals: 11
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (3)

Re: Jury Discussion

Postby MrBenn on Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:57 am

We have something up our sleeves for the Drafting room, but not jury-related...
Image
PB: 2661 | He's blue... If he were green he would die | No mod would be stupid enough to do that
User avatar
Lieutenant MrBenn
Retired Team Member
 
Posts: 7051
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:32 am
Location: Off Duty
Medals: 67
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (2)
General Achievement (6) Clan Achievement (1) Map Contribution (7) Tournament Contribution (2) General Contribution (15)

Re: Jury Discussion

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:58 am

MrBenn wrote:We have something up our sleeves for the Drafting room, but not jury-related...

ok, i'll trust you on that one MrBenn
Sergeant LED ZEPPELINER
 
Posts: 1088
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:09 pm
Medals: 11
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (3)

Re: Jury Discussion

Postby oaktown on Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:16 pm

While we are, indeed, planning some other changes around here, I still want to press on with this jury idea. Here's what I sent out as the last Jury Summons:

Dear members of the Foundry,

You have been summoned to appear on the jury for the _____ map. The map has received stamps for Graphics and Gameplay, but it is up to you - members of the community - to decide if this map has met the standards of the Foundry and is ready for inclusion as a Conquer Club map.

Your duties are as follows: visit the map thread and inspect the map with a critical eye; no concern is too small at this point, as we would rather fix problems now than after the map has reached the Forge. If you have any concerns or criticisms, post them in the thread with constructive suggestions for the mapmaker. If you have no concerns and feel that the map is play ready, please give post in the thread that you give this map your approval to advance.

There are three of you sitting on this jury, with me on the side as a fourth and silent member. It will require the approval of three jury members for the map to move on the Final Forge. If there should arise any conflicting opinions or if a jury member is unable to fulfill his duties, I reserve the right to be the third voice of approval.

Thank you for your continued service to the Foundry.

This is how I would like to proceed for the time being - if it's not working out we can certainly tinker. My question for all of you is whether or not you would be willing to sit on such a jury for future maps, and if the expectations above seem clear and reasonable. :?:
User avatar
Captain oaktown
 
Posts: 4552
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:24 pm
Location: majorcommand
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Fog of War Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (1) General Achievement (1) Map Contribution (12)
General Contribution (5)

Re: Jury Discussion

Postby The Neon Peon on Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:23 pm

Do you just randomly pick out people and ask them to be on the jury, or is there some process of thought involved where you look to see how constructive that person's comments have been previously?
User avatar
Lieutenant The Neon Peon
 
Posts: 2342
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:49 pm
Medals: 31
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (3) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (3) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (3)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (1) Tournament Achievement (2) General Achievement (3)

Re: Jury Discussion

Postby oaktown on Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:14 pm

The Neon Peon wrote:Do you just randomly pick out people and ask them to be on the jury, or is there some process of thought involved where you look to see how constructive that person's comments have been previously?

I was just going to put together a list of everybody and go through the list - if you're active around here you will be called on to serve. In fact,just by posting here you've volunteered, neon!

I'll try to put at least one quenched mapmaker on each jury and one relatively new voice, as we don't want to load any one jury with three newbs or three crotchety old-timers.
User avatar
Captain oaktown
 
Posts: 4552
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:24 pm
Location: majorcommand
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Fog of War Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (1) General Achievement (1) Map Contribution (12)
General Contribution (5)

Re: Jury Discussion

Postby the.killing.44 on Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:29 pm

Crotchety … what a word. Anyway I'd love to serve ;)

.44
User avatar
Major the.killing.44
 
Posts: 4737
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:43 pm
Location: now tell me what got two gums and knows how to spit rhymes
Medals: 47
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (3) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2)
Speed Achievement (3) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (3) General Achievement (3)
Clan Achievement (3) Map Contribution (2) Tournament Contribution (2) General Contribution (4)

Re: Jury Discussion

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:51 pm

i'm in for whatever jury u want me in (if any)
Sergeant LED ZEPPELINER
 
Posts: 1088
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:09 pm
Medals: 11
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (3)

Re: Jury Discussion

Postby sailorseal on Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:31 pm

LED ZEPPELINER wrote:i'm in for whatever jury u want me in (if any)

Same here
User avatar
Cook sailorseal
 
Posts: 2738
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 1:49 pm
Location: conquerclub.com
Medals: 27
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Ratings Achievement (3)
Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (1) Tournament Contribution (7) General Contribution (3)

Re: Jury Discussion

Postby oaktown on Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:09 am

once you've served you're off the hook for a while - let's get everybody involved. ;)
User avatar
Captain oaktown
 
Posts: 4552
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:24 pm
Location: majorcommand
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Fog of War Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (1) General Achievement (1) Map Contribution (12)
General Contribution (5)

Re: I feel that...

Postby iancanton on Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:22 am

oaktown wrote:once a map hits the Forge nobody looks at it anymore (which in my opinion is the way it should be - a map should be all but finished when it is thrown into the Forge).

i have to agree. this is all the more reason why mapmakers should not expect a stamp when they say that they'll fix already-identified small niggles only after they're in the final forge.

ian. :)
Image
User avatar
Colonel iancanton
Cartography Assistant
Cartography Assistant
 
Posts: 1758
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 5:40 am
Location: europe
Medals: 53
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4) General Achievement (5) Clan Achievement (8) General Contribution (13)

Re: Jury Discussion

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:14 pm

MrBenn wrote:We have something up our sleeves for the Drafting room, but not jury-related...

any spoilers/hints
sailorseal wrote:My big boy banana was out the whole time :D
AndyDufresne wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:Many Happy Bananas to everyone, lets party...with Bananas.
--Andy
Forever linked at the hip's-banana! (That sounds strange, don't quote me.)
Sergeant LED ZEPPELINER
 
Posts: 1088
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:09 pm
Medals: 11
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (3)

Re: Jury Discussion

Postby MrBenn on Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:59 pm

show
Image
PB: 2661 | He's blue... If he were green he would die | No mod would be stupid enough to do that
User avatar
Lieutenant MrBenn
Retired Team Member
 
Posts: 7051
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:32 am
Location: Off Duty
Medals: 67
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (2)
General Achievement (6) Clan Achievement (1) Map Contribution (7) Tournament Contribution (2) General Contribution (15)

Re: Jury Discussion

Postby InkL0sed on Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:13 pm

I'd be up for being on a jury, no problem.
User avatar
Lieutenant InkL0sed
 
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:06 pm
Location: underwater
Medals: 23
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2) Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2)
Teammate Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)

Re: Jury Discussion

Postby bryguy on Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:05 pm

InkL0sed wrote:I'd be up for being on a jury, no problem.


same
Corporal bryguy
 
Posts: 4647
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:50 am
Location: Lost in a Jigsaw
Medals: 11
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (1)

Re: Jury Discussion

Postby the.killing.44 on Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:32 pm

MrBenn wrote:
show

You crack me up. Now on to fix those badly drawn breasts … :lol:

.44
User avatar
Major the.killing.44
 
Posts: 4737
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:43 pm
Location: now tell me what got two gums and knows how to spit rhymes
Medals: 47
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (3) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2)
Speed Achievement (3) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (3) General Achievement (3)
Clan Achievement (3) Map Contribution (2) Tournament Contribution (2) General Contribution (4)

Re: Jury Discussion

Postby yeti_c on Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:00 pm

the.killing.44 wrote:
MrBenn wrote:
show

You crack me up. Now on to fix those badly drawn breasts … :lol:

.44


WHa?!??!

C>
Image
Highest score : 2297
User avatar
Lieutenant yeti_c
 
Posts: 9670
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 9:02 am
Medals: 46
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3)
General Achievement (1) Map Contribution (13) Tournament Contribution (1) General Contribution (10)

Re: Jury Discussion

Postby MrBenn on Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:18 pm

yeti_c wrote:
the.killing.44 wrote:
MrBenn wrote:
show

You crack me up. Now on to fix those badly drawn breasts … :lol:

.44


WHa?!??!

C>

The breasts are a reference to his Korea map... the spoiler is my response to a request for a spoiler...
Image
PB: 2661 | He's blue... If he were green he would die | No mod would be stupid enough to do that
User avatar
Lieutenant MrBenn
Retired Team Member
 
Posts: 7051
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:32 am
Location: Off Duty
Medals: 67
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (2)
General Achievement (6) Clan Achievement (1) Map Contribution (7) Tournament Contribution (2) General Contribution (15)

Re: Jury Discussion

Postby Teflon Kris on Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:18 pm

show: Big Long Waffle Version

*1 Democracy could be discussed for decades.

*2 Jury system addresses subjectivity concerns quite a lot. Good move.

*3 Ideas for jury member's regarding oak's point about constructive feedback: As oak says, giving a list. Maybe numbered bullet points (prioritising), and indicating the importance of each point made (e.g. Important/Needs Good Consideration/Desirable/Minor Point)? + Having a jury member responsible for clarity and the thread being on-task.

*4 My only other point has been mentionned by others before: discussions are to help map-makers. It's easy to mis-read when we have no eye contact, no body language and just words. That's probably how a lot of disagreement starts.
Last edited by Teflon Kris on Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Major Teflon Kris
 
Posts: 3794
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:39 pm
Location: Lancashire, United Kingdom
Medals: 176
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (4) Triples Achievement (4) Quadruples Achievement (4) Terminator Achievement (3)
Assassin Achievement (3) Manual Troops Achievement (4) Freestyle Achievement (4) Polymorphic Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (4)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (4) Speed Achievement (4) Teammate Achievement (3) Random Map Achievement (4)
Cross-Map Achievement (4) Beta Map Achievement (2) Bot Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (30)
General Achievement (15) Clan Achievement (21) Challenge Achievement (2) Tournament Contribution (32) General Contribution (8)

PreviousNext

Return to Foundry Discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

Login