Jury Discussion- POLL

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Are Jurys a good idea?

Poll ended at Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:52 pm

YES!
6
43%
no
8
57%
No but I am just un-happy because they won't let me be on one
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 14

Re: Jury Discussion

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:25 pm

MrBenn wrote:
show

show
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Re: Jury Discussion

Postby oaktown on Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:03 pm

qwert wrote:In theory Jury sistem look good,but in real jury sistem can work very bad.

So, you don't like the CA system. When a CA hands his stamp to the community you don't like that either. What do you suggest - that we just let everybody do whatever they want and quench everything?

There are other sites with similar games that already do that, and their maps look like hell.
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Re: Jury Discussion

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:12 pm

oaktown wrote:
qwert wrote:In theory Jury sistem look good,but in real jury sistem can work very bad.

So, you don't like the CA system. When a CA hands his stamp to the community you don't like that either. What do you suggest - that we just let everybody do whatever they want and quench everything?

There are other sites with similar games that already do that, and their maps look like hell.

how about we open when a map is getting ready to go into the FF, keep it open for like 2 weeks, have on option be
Yes
and the other...
No-(see comment)
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Re: Jury Discussion

Postby the.killing.44 on Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:14 pm

LED ZEPPELINER wrote:
oaktown wrote:
qwert wrote:In theory Jury sistem look good,but in real jury sistem can work very bad.

So, you don't like the CA system. When a CA hands his stamp to the community you don't like that either. What do you suggest - that we just let everybody do whatever they want and quench everything?

There are other sites with similar games that already do that, and their maps look like hell.

how about we open when a map is getting ready to go into the FF, keep it open for like 2 weeks, have on option be
Yes
and the other...
No-(see comment)

No, for these ideas like FF polls are definitely not the way to go. People can pop in, vote and not leave anything. The jury system is good because the jurors are selected as trustworthly Foundry-goers.

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Re: Jury Discussion

Postby oaktown on Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:53 pm

It's still a young system, and it has only had three trials, but it is just bringing up what has long been a problem in our little map foundry, which is this...

Some people are responsible members of the community. They post in other people's maps. They take on responsibilities that promise no rewards. They want to see the best maps possible made for the site. They are here to serve the community.

Meanwhile, other people don't understand that they are part of a larger community, and lack awareness of the expectations and responsibilities that come with being a member of a group. They are here to make the maps that they want to make, as they want to make them. They spend 95% of their foundry time in their own map threads, and the rest of the time talking about how the foundry doesn't work for them. These people think that the Foundry is here to serve them.

The jury system will never work for this second type because a) they won't serve on a jury when called, and b) they won't respect the opinion of the jury when offered. They'll never be happy with the jury system, but then they were never happy with the old system either. ](*,)

I'm going to take a few days off from all Foundry business, and come back to this with a clear mind.
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Re: Jury Discussion

Postby Teflon Kris on Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:19 pm

Not sure if this helps but would a jury chair-person be of any use?

This person would collate the jury's opinions and summarise the findings - i.e. at regular times list the agreed amendments (and perhaps those that weren't agreed), how necessary/important they are and whether they have been acted on / if there is continuing discussion with the cartographer, or a stalemate scenario. Or, maybe that's oak?

Hey, no system is perfect, especially not in its infancy.

If you have a look at the Polynessian War thread, developments progressed fine early doors, in particular when a numbered list of developments were put forward. It all looks so simple. Maybe, in such cases, the jury discuss by PM and the chair-person posts their findings. Maybe that might simplify things? Just an idea.
Last edited by Teflon Kris on Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jury Discussion

Postby the.killing.44 on Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:20 pm

oak is the Jury head. He's the fourth and silent member, presiding over the actions.

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Re: Jury Discussion

Postby edbeard on Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:42 pm

I think it's a bit silly to put all this power to the jury.

In my opinion, the jury should only be about making sure the gameplay is balanced and the graphics are not going to confuse anyone (one purpose of graphics is to translate the gameplay into visual form). To have people say something like "until such and such changes, I'm not passing the map" is WAY too much power. If the person wants few bonuses that's his choice. If the person wants an objective to solely serve as a way to end the game faster and not be used as a legitimate route to victory, that's the mapmaker's choice.

opinions of is the map going to play this way or that way or will this be more fun or whatever are up to the mapmaker.

gameplay stamps are about balanced gameplay.

idea stamp is about whether the gameplay and graphical directives are interesting to the community at large and/or different/unique enough to be worthy of being a Conquer Club Map. perhaps graphical idea and gameplay idea stamps are needed. more stamps oh joy! if you change the direction of your map (graphics or gameplay or both), you need to re-acquire your stamps. this is how things SHOULD work. people redo maps but never get sent back to ideas. or I haven't seen that recently.


specifics should be left to the mapmaker as long as they fit the themes defined by the idea stamps. strongly encouraging change is one thing. requiring it is another. One thing that SHOULD be required is consistency. this affects many things. borders is one good example. there's no good reason to have good solid borders all throughout the map but then blurry/squiggly ones elsewhere. this is inconsistent and is not acceptable. there are other examples but I can't think of them. maybe colours is another good one. you have a map with continents in the yellow - red spectrum but one continent is blue. the example is a bit obvious and simple but "consistency" applies to almost everything.



it's all very difficult because the "I want it this way" argument works in some cases but not in others. There is no general way to say when it is acceptable and when it is not.
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Re: Jury Discussion

Postby oaktown on Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:58 am

one issue is that by assigning the jury so late in the process they aren't following the entire thread, so they're bringing up crap that has been settled. I've been thinking maybe we should assign a jury to each map as it hits the main Foundry; it would encourage those three community members to follow the life of the map, and will mean they are more informed when it comes time to cast a vote on the map.

The down side of this is that it will require way more jury members (there are a lot of active maps in the Foundry) and since it takes weeks/months to complete a map we may lose jury members along the way, making more work for me. I'm tired of doing more work. ;)

Anyway, discuss... i'll pick up this discussion next week when I'm fresh.
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Re: Jury Discussion

Postby Incandenza on Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:53 am

oaktown wrote:one issue is that by assigning the jury so late in the process they aren't following the entire thread, so they're bringing up crap that has been settled. I've been thinking maybe we should assign a jury to each map as it hits the main Foundry; it would encourage those three community members to follow the life of the map, and will mean they are more informed when it comes time to cast a vote on the map.

The down side of this is that it will require way more jury members (there are a lot of active maps in the Foundry) and since it takes weeks/months to complete a map we may lose jury members along the way, making more work for me. I'm tired of doing more work. ;)

Anyway, discuss... i'll pick up this discussion next week when I'm fresh.


Well, then, why bother with stampers, then?

I'm kinda with ed. I see the jury concept as a "last looks", "get a few people together to see if there's anything obvious we missed" concept, as opposed to ultimate arbiters of a map's future.
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Re: Jury Discussion

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:14 am

Foundry works good in this way!
125 maps isn't a big errors. ;)

I'm thinking that for someone is too usual to give critics to other and to spend few time on his problems. :x

Foundry is perfect perhaps a little bit frustrating, but if this is the price for a quality map i think that it's good. ;)

But probably a jury is a bit too.
There's no way to create some referral figures that follow a map for every steps in foundry to help CA?
But they have to suggest/check not to judify.
In this case i could help ;)

But, in my opinion, there's more important to fix in foundry process than understand if someone could or couldn't judify a map.
In foundry there too people that elect themself as supreme judges.
Please don't create another one.

But i'm agree with this possibility:

incadenza wrote:I'm kinda with ed. I see the jury concept as a "last looks", "get a few people together to see if there's anything obvious we missed" concept, as opposed to ultimate arbiters of a map's future.
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Re: Jury Discussion

Postby OliverFA on Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:08 am

After having experienced the jury system myself (well, in fact I AM experiencing it right now) because I was called to be a member, I have some thougts about it. I will summarize them really shortly.

- I think that the jury is a good idea. Having 4 (maybe 5) members, 2 mods and 3 foundry members, is a good thing. It avoids depending exclusively on one person (even if he is a mod) but still guarantees that people who will decide about the map will have "qualified" opinion.
- But... the problem with the jury system is that it still needs to be defined a little more. It would be food if members (and also the map maker) new exactly what the jury makes, what the jury evaluates, and which power the jury has and why. By the way, looks like this thread is the perfect place to discuss that. ;-)
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Re: I feel that...

Postby yeti_c on Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:35 pm

yeti_c wrote:Short and Sharp as that's all I have time for.

At the moment it seems like the CA's are getting it from both sides.

New Map Makers | CA's | Veteran Mapmakers

The CA's are doing a great job from both sides - people need to pull their heads out of their arses and let them get on with it - because guess what - creating topics and angst in the foundry actually means they have LESS time to do their (voluntary) jobs in the foundry.

C.


My views haven't changed...

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Re: Jury Discussion

Postby MrBenn on Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:24 pm

Part of me thinks that it might be too late to call in a jury AFTER a stamp for graphics or gameplay has been dished out... it would be much better to get the focused feedback earlier during development...
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Re: Jury Discussion

Postby MrBenn on Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:30 pm

... for example the Korea map has just been launched from the drafting room into the main foundry - and I'm sure that the.killing.44 would appreciate feedback during this hammering out stage a lot more than qwert would for his map that has already been officially stamped for gameplay and graphics...
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Re: Jury Discussion

Postby InkL0sed on Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:57 pm

Maybe it should work like this:

once the graphics and game play stampers feel like the maps are close to a stamp or should be stamped, a jury should then be called, at the stampers' discretion, that is.

I say at their discretion to leave flexibility for different maps. Some maps may be long overdue for a stamp and clearly don't need any more discussion, while others may be in more of a gray area and require more healthy discussion that a jury would provide, in which case the stampers would want a jury.
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Re: Jury Discussion

Postby the.killing.44 on Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:58 pm

InkL0sed wrote:once the graphics and game play stampers feel like the maps are close to a stamp or should be stamped, a jury should then be called, at the stampers' discretion, that is.

Agreed, that sounds very good.

And thanks for the promo/shout out Benn :P ;)

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Re: Jury Discussion

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:01 pm

that sounds like a good idea, but i think that the maker of the map should also have something to do with the jury being called in, not exactly sure how though
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Re: Jury Discussion

Postby sailorseal on Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:44 pm

Can I sticky this thread as it is kind of important discussion involving the foundry?
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Re: Jury Discussion

Postby the.killing.44 on Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:47 pm

sailorseal wrote:Can I sticky this thread as it is kind of important discussion involving the foundry?

No, you can't. Only the CAs/Global Mods/Admins can do that.

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Re: Jury Discussion

Postby GrimReaper. on Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:49 pm

NO JURYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Jury Discussion

Postby sailorseal on Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:51 pm

the.killing.44 wrote:
sailorseal wrote:Can I sticky this thread as it is kind of important discussion involving the foundry?

No, you can't. Only the CAs/Global Mods/Admins can do that.

.44

Your kidding right? Why would I ask permission if I can do it myself!?! I am asking them

GrimReaper. wrote:NO JURYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And this is why I think it should be stickied
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Re: Jury Discussion

Postby the.killing.44 on Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:05 pm

sailorseal wrote:our kidding right? Why would I ask permission if I can do it myself!?! I am asking them

No, you don't understand. You cannot change this thread to a sticky, physically.

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Re: Jury Discussion

Postby sailorseal on Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:28 pm

the.killing.44 wrote:
sailorseal wrote:our kidding right? Why would I ask permission if I can do it myself!?! I am asking them

No, you don't understand. You cannot change this thread to a sticky, physically.

.44

No you don't understand. I mis-phrased my initial request but then when I said "if I could I would" that means I can't
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Re: Jury Discussion

Postby the.killing.44 on Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:44 pm

sailorseal wrote:I said "if I could I would" that means I can't

You never said that :roll:

Anyway I think this bumps itself quite regularly as not much happens in the Foundry Discussion, somewhat sadly.

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Clan Achievement (3) Map Contribution (2) Tournament Contribution (2) General Contribution (4)

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