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Re: World Cities (V3, 3/30/09)

Postby Merciless Wong on Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:50 pm

Looks like cities by GDP adjusted for spacing and with a slight bias to having reps from each region.
Singapore is on Jave though.. should be to the right at the end of the Malaysian peninsula
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Re: World Cities (V3, 3/30/09)

Postby reggie_mac on Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:52 pm

Falkomagno wrote:
btw...isn't Auckland more Important and larger than Wellington?


Im sure Aucklanders would agree with this, but no. Auckalnd may have a larger population but Wellington is the capital of NZ so it would be a more logical choice than Auckland.
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Re: World Cities (V3, 3/30/09)

Postby sully800 on Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:12 pm

Auckland and Wellington is a tough debate. Both are very well known (far and above all other New Zealand cities) but since there is only room for one I chose the capital. This might be similar to a choice between NYC and Washington DC, but in that case I think NY wins because of its sheer size and status in the financial world.

Looks like cities by GDP adjusted for spacing and with a slight bias to having reps from each region.
Singapore is on Jave though.. should be to the right at the end of the Malaysian peninsula


Right you are, I will shift it over in a later version. (I think I had originally picked that spot and called it Jakarta)

Falkomagno wrote:1.Afrika: I think that 4 cities is too few...and the largest city in the continent (and the 15th in the hole world) is out¡¡¡I'm talking about Lagos....that because it's localization can easly added

2.North America. I think that is too many citys here....I know..that is the power of the world but, Atalanta, and even Edmonton....I think that it's too much...we're talking about 11 cities¡¡¡that's South america+Africa+3 cities...plus...I think that Las Vegas..that's is no doubt a World City has so much interconectivity...6....well...I think that it's too much


I think a map needs to have a mix of small and large bonus regions to make interesting gameplay for flat rate and no cards games. That is why I wanted to include two small regions of four cities each, and for a map of cities SA and Africa are the best choices of small regions. Those regions might feel short changed since I am including relatively few cities, but it will actually give them more attention during games because people always shoot for the smaller bonus regions.

Good call on Lagos though, I will switch out Dakar and include that instead.
Falkomagno wrote:3. Asia-Oceania....I think that put Jakarta and Manila as oceania cities is confused, I mean, we know that's not true....so,I think in two options:


Minila and Singapore have strong influences from Asia and Oceania. As with other maps (such as World 2.1) I decided to put them in Oceania because otherwise that region includes only Australia and NZ essentially.

As for your other region suggestions, I think they were good ideas. But I am going to side with the economic trade alliances for the reasons mentioned earlier.
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Re: World Cities (V3, 3/30/09)

Postby Ruben Cassar on Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:25 pm

Where is Rome, also known as the capital of the world and the eternal city?
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Re: World Cities (V3, 3/30/09)

Postby sully800 on Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:13 pm

It was there in the beginning Reuben, but Awfully close to Paris and Athens/Istanbul. The two digit numbers would fit, but the three digit numbers would become an issue, especially while trying to maintain clear connections.

I would say Rome was once the capital of the world, but I find it hard to justify Rome instead of Paris. :? Europe is just too small for all of its great cities!
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Re: World Cities (V3, 3/30/09)

Postby Ruben Cassar on Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:00 am

sully800 wrote:It was there in the beginning Reuben, but Awfully close to Paris and Athens/Istanbul. The two digit numbers would fit, but the three digit numbers would become an issue, especially while trying to maintain clear connections.

I would say Rome was once the capital of the world, but I find it hard to justify Rome instead of Paris. :? Europe is just too small for all of its great cities!


My God...blasphemy!

You think Paris is more important than Rome!? Hehe. Anyway can I petition for Rome to be on the map?

Btw I play many games but I never went up to 3 digit figures so the odds of that happening are extremely low.

Edit: I would put Athens instead of Istanbul in there as well!
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Re: World Cities (V3, 3/30/09)

Postby sully800 on Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:39 am

Ruben Cassar wrote:
sully800 wrote:It was there in the beginning Reuben, but Awfully close to Paris and Athens/Istanbul. The two digit numbers would fit, but the three digit numbers would become an issue, especially while trying to maintain clear connections.

I would say Rome was once the capital of the world, but I find it hard to justify Rome instead of Paris. :? Europe is just too small for all of its great cities!


My God...blasphemy!

You think Paris is more important than Rome!? Hehe. Anyway can I petition for Rome to be on the map?

Btw I play many games but I never went up to 3 digit figures so the odds of that happening are extremely low.

Edit: I would put Athens instead of Istanbul in there as well!


The problem is its not just Paris, its the Paris/Madrid/Istanbul region surrounding Romes old spot. The cities are nicely distributed right now in Europe I think, but putting Rome in makes things very crowded.

And I agree that three digit numbers are the exception, not the rule. But they still happen frequently enough to be considered in cartography. Additional, the color blind codes make all two digit numbers 3 characters long so it can really cause problems.

I'm certainly open to changing Istanbul back to Athens. That's how I had it originally and switched based on a suggestion. Anyone else have an opinion on the matter?
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Re: World Cities (V3, 3/30/09)

Postby Merciless Wong on Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:21 am

Change NY to Brooklyn - then you have Italians covered anyways... and don't need Rome. NY humor.
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Re: World Cities (V3, 3/30/09)

Postby Ruben Cassar on Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:25 am

Merciless Wong wrote:Change NY to Brooklyn - then you have Italians covered anyways... and don't need Rome. NY humor.


Is this supposed to be a joke? :-s
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Re: World Cities (V3, 3/30/09)

Postby sully800 on Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:29 am

Yeah he's kidding, but got me at first too!

Been busy the past few weeks but beginning of may i can do some updates
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Re: World Cities (V3, 3/30/09)

Postby Joodoo on Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:34 am

I think you could add Seoul or Bangkok to the map
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Re: World Cities (V3, 3/30/09)

Postby skillfusniper33 on Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:53 am

I like the map and the idea a lot and cant wait to give it a try; but i would either have a attack route from Dakar or Cape Town to Rio de Janeiro. Or possibly decrease the bonus of South America to a 1 if you don't add a change to the attack route.

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Re: World Cities (V3, 3/30/09)

Postby Merciless Wong on Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:37 pm

Connect singapore to cape town instead of where it connects to africa then connect cape town to rio di janjiro
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Re: World Cities (V3, 3/30/09)

Postby reggie_mac on Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:55 pm

skillfusniper33 wrote:I like the map and the idea a lot and cant wait to give it a try; but i would either have a attack route from Dakar or Cape Town to Rio de Janeiro. Or possibly decrease the bonus of South America to a 1 if you don't add a change to the attack route.

Skillfusniper33



Try looking at the map again and see where any similarities between this map and others may lie to understand the routes and bonuses ..
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Re: World Cities (V3, 3/30/09)

Postby gho on Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:19 pm

So is this going to become the classic map? Pretty much a replacement for classic shapes?

Jakarta definitely needs to replace Singapore, Singapore is 0% Oceania, at least Jakarta is partially Oceania
Also i'm in favour of athens instead of istanbul. Istanbul is confusing being on two continents, athens is definately european though.

Also to make the North America a bit more north american maybe put Havana instead of Miami
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Re: World Cities (V3, 3/30/09)

Postby Merciless Wong on Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:28 pm

I would think like Prince in the City this isn't much like Classic Maps - its certainly in the style but no m ore than any 3 large, 3 small continent game would be (there's only so many ways you can arrange this)
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Re: World Cities (V3, 3/30/09)

Postby oaktown on Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:59 pm

I like where this map is going... it makes me think air travel, since you're basically linking major air hubs. I'm sure this has been discussed, but it seems like there should be more transatlantic traffic than just New York - London.

Make sure its clear which title go with which circles... New York is awfully close to Montreal, Chicago to Toronto, Paris to Madrid, etc. I screw up my placements all the time because I'm just looking at the map and not thinking about geography.
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Re: World Cities (V3, 3/30/09)

Postby MrBenn on Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:17 pm

I notice it's about 3wks since the last update... Will there be an update soon?
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Re: World Cities (V3, 3/30/09)

Postby sully800 on Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:25 pm

Joodoo wrote:I think you could add Seoul or Bangkok to the map


Seoul gets too close to Beijing and Tokyo, especially because Asia is so expansive and therefore cities can be better placed elsewhere (I don't agree that its important, its just from a crowded region.

Bangkok has a similar problem with Hong Kong and I think Hong Kong is a better choice for this map.

Merciless Wong wrote:Connect singapore to cape town instead of where it connects to africa then connect cape town to rio di janjiro


As others have mentioned, this map is purposefully similar to classic gameplay and therefore I do not wish to connect Africa and SA. This would make them each much harder to defend and they would be undervalued or require larger bonuses. I would like to keep a mix of small continents and large valuable continents.

gho wrote:So is this going to become the classic map? Pretty much a replacement for classic shapes?

Jakarta definitely needs to replace Singapore, Singapore is 0% Oceania, at least Jakarta is partially Oceania
Also i'm in favour of athens instead of istanbul. Istanbul is confusing being on two continents, athens is definately european though.

Also to make the North America a bit more north american maybe put Havana instead of Miami


This map will be unique from the Classic Map. Originally I was thinking about creating a map with 100% classic gameplay (though not mentioning it) to revamp the map with a new skin. That could have caused legal troubles though, I'm not certain. As I began working on the map I realized classic is not perfect so I am going to keep this map similar while making it more balanced (that will be seen in my next update).

Jakarta can replace Singapore, I think you are right in your analysis that Jakarta is much more a part of Oceania.

I agree with you about Athens being a more clear part of Europe which is why I originally included it instead of Istanbul. Istanbul is currently a more influential world power but you can't argue against Athens' past as a World City. Will switch back in next edition.

Miami is definitely a part of North America, despite its Cuban influences. Besides isn't Cuban a part of the North American continent?

oaktown wrote:I like where this map is going... it makes me think air travel, since you're basically linking major air hubs. I'm sure this has been discussed, but it seems like there should be more transatlantic traffic than just New York - London.

Make sure its clear which title go with which circles... New York is awfully close to Montreal, Chicago to Toronto, Paris to Madrid, etc. I screw up my placements all the time because I'm just looking at the map and not thinking about geography.


I had two early inspirations for this map, both from traveling. One was the cartoony maps you see in gift shops with 2.5D illustrations of cities around the world. I originally intended to do my own version of those maps, but there is not enough space on this pallete to provide images for each city. My other influence was the air travel maps you find showing the hubs for different airlines, as you referenced.

Label clarity will be an ongoing concern that I will always attempt to remedy. I've had many troubles with Midkermia's labels so I want to avoid problems wherever possible. I think my map will be helped because the locations are familiar to most people, but I will still try to fix the areas you mentioned.

Next update should be later this week!
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Re: World Cities (V3, 3/30/09)

Postby gho on Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:36 pm

sully800 wrote:Miami is definitely a part of North America, despite its Cuban influences. Besides isn't Cuban a part of the North American continent?


I meant include havana, cuba to make north america more north america and less US and Canada. With the completely classic map style, have you been knocked back by the moderators? because i think if you make it exactly like classic it would become one of the most played maps on this site, if not it will only lie somewhere in the middle.
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Re: World Cities (V3, 3/30/09)

Postby sailorseal on Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:41 pm

gho wrote:
sully800 wrote:Miami is definitely a part of North America, despite its Cuban influences. Besides isn't Cuban a part of the North American continent?


because i think if you make it exactly like classic it would become one of the most played maps on this site, if not it will only lie somewhere in the middle.

I doubt this for a few reasons, classic even being called Classic is not Classic ;)
It is not the most popular map or even the most played map. I say keep this separate and I think Lack does too
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Re: World Cities (V3, 3/30/09)

Postby sully800 on Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:02 pm

gho wrote:
sully800 wrote:Miami is definitely a part of North America, despite its Cuban influences. Besides isn't Cuban a part of the North American continent?


I meant include havana, cuba to make north america more north america and less US and Canada. With the completely classic map style, have you been knocked back by the moderators? because i think if you make it exactly like classic it would become one of the most played maps on this site, if not it will only lie somewhere in the middle.


Oh sorry, misunderstood the Havana comment. Your suggestion is a good one though since Mexico city is currently the only non US/Canadian territory. I originally looked to include a city from Greenland but there aren't many to speak of! ;)

I was not asked to change the gameplay because of the moderators, but lack did mention that this should be kept separate from classic. Since it will not be possible to replace the existing map I wish to change and improve the gameplay (and change the interior connections in each region to be more logical, which I already began doing).
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Re: World Cities (V3, 3/30/09)

Postby Teflon Kris on Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:01 pm

Nice style - lookin good

I agree re. Trans-Atlantic links (in fact, probably more links all round - some of the continents look easy to hold).

Plus, I agree re.the Havana suggestion - or somewhere Carribean (e.g. Kingston) - this could be a link point to Europe too?
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Re: World Cities (V3, 3/30/09)

Postby iancanton on Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:45 am

sully800 wrote:I do not wish to connect Africa and SA. This would make them each much harder to defend and they would be undervalued or require larger bonuses. I would like to keep a mix of small continents and large valuable continents.

good logic. classic's continents have the property that nearly all of their regions are closely-bound to each other and not linked to many regions of other continents. that's what makes them continents in the traditional sense.

sully800 wrote:
gho wrote:Jakarta definitely needs to replace Singapore, Singapore is 0% Oceania, at least Jakarta is partially Oceania

Jakarta can replace Singapore, I think you are right in your analysis that Jakarta is much more a part of Oceania.

jakarta and singapore are both on asian islands, though jakarta is part of classic australia, while singapore's not on that map at all. i prefer singapore because it's a genuinely world-famous city and major aviation hub, while jakarta isn't even the best-known place in indonesia (that honour belongs to bali).

to solve the issue of some bonus regions feeling cramped, u could explode them (as the usa map has done), then increase the size of nafta and europe, while shrinking africa and mercosur down to size.

at the moment, it's not completely clear whether honolulu is in nafta (correct politically and economically) or oceania (correct geographically). changing the colours ought to solve that one.

ian. :)
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Re: World Cities (V3, 3/30/09)

Postby sully800 on Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:41 pm

I wanted to post an update to show you the changes, though I am not happy with a lot of the new curved lines. I created them all using a string of text applied to a pen tool path (as per WM's great suggestion in another thread) so they can be easily updated. Currently most have a single point of curvature, though some have a double curve. In the next update I will play around with each line to make them all look better.

I updated most of the city names that I said I would change. If I missed any please let me know. Also, I think Honolulu is pretty clearly from NAFTA because the font is blue, but maybe that is a colorblindness issue. I can interchange the overall continent colors if that would help the clarity.

The current bonus regions are based on trade alliances, but not all cities actually belong in each trade alliance. For example, CER is actually an agreement between Australia and NZ, not all of what was formerly called Oceania. To fix this I will either have to find trade alliances that encompass each group of cities or realign some of the cities in each region.

Overall gameplay: As many people have stated, the gameplay of this map is similar though certainly not identical to the classic map. My original thought was I wanted to force a carbon copy of classic onto a new map (basically a revamp) but that is far more trouble than it is worth, and not the best solution. So instead I aim to fix some of the existing balance problems with classic (this will really only affect flat rate and no cards games).

The biggest problems with classic as I see them:
-Australia is a bit too strong
-Europe is a bit too weak

I have made some minor changes in the latest addition to fix these problems. MERCOSUR (similar to Australia) now borders NAFTA in two places. Yes it is still a 4 city region with only one direct border city, but now expanding into NAFTA will be significantly harder.

APEC (similar to Europe) has the same number of borders and the same number of cities, but now all 4 border cities are adjacent. In the classic map, if a player breaks Iceland you are unable to retaliate on the same turn because the other 3 border countries don't connect to Iceland. On this map, if a player breaks any of the APEC border cities it can be recaptured from at least one of the other border cities. This will make APEC marginally stronger on my map and should help to make it a better starting position.

NAFTA (similar to Asia) is still a wasteland that cannot be a starting position. You won't be able to hold NAFTA without first holding MERCOSUR. That is intentional though, and I think the bonus is still the proper amount. It will be possible for a player to expand from MERCOSUR to also control NAFTA, and a combined bonus of 9 seems perfect to me. You may also notice that Seattle now connects to Japan, so the NAFTA player can simplify their borders by holding Japan instead of Seattle and LA.

All other borders should be the same as in my previous edition. If any mistakes were made when updating the connections please let me know.

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