Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D3 23/25

Postby samgrossy on Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:49 pm

So the post below got me thinking about seeing if there is a case against Victor that would hold water. While I know that this isn't the best way to build a case, town has yet to receive a scum lynch, and his posts just keep rubbing me the wrong way.

Victor Sullivan wrote:Fluff my muffins! I can't believe that.

-Sully


We all have witnessed Sully making quick one-line posts that have very little relevance to the game. If you need to jog your memory, check Day 1 here and here or Day 3 here. These are just like the above post.

But in my research, here's what I found interesting.

Sully votes for Greg D1, check the vote and his modest buddying with Jak, who originally made the vote. You all know how I feel about Jak. Notice that (in his own way) he is saying that this case is worth pursuing. Straws are bendy - Let's see where this case leads.

Victor Sullivan wrote:
nagerous wrote:Grasping at straws there Jak,

They're the bendy straws, though; they're worth grasping at.

Unvote vote gregwolf

-Sully


Could this be scum buddying?

Then Jak officially votes someone else, Aage. That post is here

Now he is pushed into talking about some comments he made and Violet and him have some real discussion about it and he posts this little gem:

Victor Sullivan wrote:I'm not really sure what you want? It's not like I can do much Day 1 aside from building pointless cases or taking sides on pointless cases. And I'm sure I'm not the only one posting what one might call "fluff". It's easy to be in the midst of things and seem like you're doing more than you are. I mean, many of you are trying way too hard to find something in that post of mine. I feel like that's evidence enough that we've yet again accomplished very little Day 1.

My whole thing is I'm simply stopping in to say, "hello," and let you all know I'm keeping track of the conversation. There's not much else to do without a little night action-action.

-Sully


What happened to the bendy straws that need pursuing? I thought that we should pressure people a little? Those are your words. Or are you trying to distance yourself from the scum buddying? I think that is the case because if you truly believed that there wasn't a case on anyone, you would have unvoted Greg. But, for some reason, your vote stayed. That's suspicious. ESPECIALLY since your vote never changed D1 even after the push to even out votes and people going for a no lynch.

Now it gets even better:

Victor Sullivan wrote:I mean Day 2 there is more out there to verify/disprove claims. And my philosophy for voting inactives was for Day 1 only and only on the basis that I'd rather play against good players than with silent ones. You did vote for Iliad, did you not?

-Sully


So, with all the crazy D1, there is a promise of some real input on D2. Great. Please note this post was made Sept 16

The next post is during D2, as promised, but here it is, the insightful post by Sully that he promises at the end of D1

Victor Sullivan wrote:Oh snappers! I must apologize, I forgot about this; I was busy over the end of last week and the weekend. Not that it particularly matters, since my vote was stolen anyway :(

I'll try to catch up. Seems to me I was taking heat yesterday, so I'll try to be quick-like! Thursdays I'm booked, but I'll see if I can't post something meaningful by Friday.

-Sully


This post was made Sept 27, but at least he was sorry. But we go through and realize that his vote is being stolen (shown by a vote count). He never stops to even check in to the thread after that and ask what is happening or talk about it. And he never lives up to his promise of D2 insight after night actions. This seems like an obvious attempt at scummarining. But it continues to yesterday when he hasn't made a post since october 1, and makes this comment 16 days after his last post (this time, no apologies!):

Victor Sullivan wrote:Fluff my muffins! I can't believe that.

-Sully


So I ask the town... At the very least he is not bringing anything to the table. I personally think that he is acting super scummy and not living up to the things he has said and is full of contradictions. In my eyes, his day 1 behavior was indicative of scum behavior, and the D2 and D3 behavior is just reinforcing it.

So I have enough evidence to make me feel comfortable VOTE VICTOR SULLIVAN
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D3 23/25

Postby LSU Tiger Josh on Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:12 pm

confirm, will post more tomorrow. going to bed now. btw i don't talk about what i have or have not done in past lives in the same game out of principle even though edoc said it wouldn't break the game.
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Yomiel wrote:As I said, I DID. He responded very badly both times. He won't even consider that he made a mistake, and this behavior is hurting the game.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D3 23/25

Postby chapcrap on Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:33 pm

When can a case not be made against VS?

Ok, I'll share my info because no one else is willing and I feel like it will help. What I know is that on the last lynch, 4 were anti-town. That is why edoc had to post the vote count, because I needed him to for the information. Here is the VC:
edocsil wrote:For various reasons a final VC from yesterday was requested.

Jak (5) ~ shaggy, pcm, cm5, Sam, gregwolf
Vodean (1) ~ lsu
Iliad (2) ~ /, Fifth
gregwolf (12) ~ Saf, jonty, soundman, violet, aage, JG, Nag, DRoZ jak, ???, Strike, Vodean

So, the part about I am wondering about is the ??? vote. Either way, I think it's valuable to get that information on a group of players. So, I'll be sharing.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D3 23/25

Postby samgrossy on Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:13 pm

This is great information, becuase now at least we can narrow our search. Could you clarify something though. You say on the last lynch, 4 were anti-town. I assume that you mean four of the people who voted for the victim. I initially interpreted this to say that of the four people targeted for a lynch. Subsequently, I wondered why there was even a question because there were only four targets. Can you confirm that its four of the voters and not 4 of the targets.

Next, and I hate to bring it back to here, but Jak was one of the people who voted for Greg. He's looking more and more guilty in my book. But, I said I would stick to the case I built on Sully for now, so I will live up to my end of that.

Lastly, do you have any info about N1? Or did we have to reach a lynch to determine the number of players who were antitown? I assume it's that we have to reach a lynch, but its worth asking.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D3 23/25

Postby jak111 on Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:50 pm

chapcrap wrote:So, the part about I am wondering about is the ??? vote. Either way, I think it's valuable to get that information on a group of players. So, I'll be sharing.


I am curious, are you skimming, or are you forgetful? I had a stolen vote and it shows up as "???"... the fact that I need to explain this after I've been a known vote stealer is pretty bad.

Now, I want to hear about your anti town thing. Is it gut feeling or a power? If it's a power I can narrow down the list to:

Saf, jonty, soundman, aage, JG, Nag, DRoZ, Strike, Vodean

I know that's not a great decrease with only 3 voters gone, but if you say 4 of these are anti town we have targets to investigate and I have people to target for a missing vote ;)

Now, if you can confirm it as a power, then we could try to clear 2-3 of the above with night actions last night and we will soon have a small amount of people left to get at.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D3 23/25

Postby blakebowling on Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:56 pm

jak111 wrote:
chapcrap wrote:So, the part about I am wondering about is the ??? vote. Either way, I think it's valuable to get that information on a group of players. So, I'll be sharing.


I am curious, are you skimming, or are you forgetful? I had a stolen vote and it shows up as "???"... the fact that I need to explain this after I've been a known vote stealer is pretty bad.

Now, I want to hear about your anti town thing. Is it gut feeling or a power? If it's a power I can narrow down the list to:

Saf, jonty, soundman, aage, JG, Nag, DRoZ, Strike, Vodean

I know that's not a great decrease with only 3 voters gone, but if you say 4 of these are anti town we have targets to investigate and I have people to target for a missing vote ;)

Now, if you can confirm it as a power, then we could try to clear 2-3 of the above with night actions last night and we will soon have a small amount of people left to get at.

I do believe he was asking who the ??? vote shows up as. (i.e. If it would count as your alignment or the person whom it was stolen from's alignment, or neither)
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D3 23/25

Postby jak111 on Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:32 pm

Hmm, if it shows up as the person who it was stolen from it'd be Victor's vote. But, until I hear that it is his power instead of his gut, I'm not placing bets on it just yet.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D3 23/25

Postby chapcrap on Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:40 pm

It is the votes on the person getting lynched that we're talking about.

blakebowling wrote:
jak111 wrote:
chapcrap wrote:So, the part about I am wondering about is the ??? vote. Either way, I think it's valuable to get that information on a group of players. So, I'll be sharing.


I am curious, are you skimming, or are you forgetful? I had a stolen vote and it shows up as "???"... the fact that I need to explain this after I've been a known vote stealer is pretty bad.

Now, I want to hear about your anti town thing. Is it gut feeling or a power? If it's a power I can narrow down the list to:

Saf, jonty, soundman, aage, JG, Nag, DRoZ, Strike, Vodean

I know that's not a great decrease with only 3 voters gone, but if you say 4 of these are anti town we have targets to investigate and I have people to target for a missing vote ;)

Now, if you can confirm it as a power, then we could try to clear 2-3 of the above with night actions last night and we will soon have a small amount of people left to get at.

I do believe he was asking who the ??? vote shows up as. (i.e. If it would count as your alignment or the person whom it was stolen from's alignment, or neither)

This. When I initially typed my last post I said that 8 votes were town, but that was technically incorrect information. I was told that 4 were anti-town. So, I don't know where that ??? falls in. Is it jak? Is it VS? If it is jak, what does that mean for the number? I don't know those answers. All I know is 4 of the players on the lynch were anti-town. So, I think that means that 4 of 11 (if jak counts twice) or 4 of 12 are anti-town.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D3 23/25

Postby DRoZ on Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:10 pm

Were you told that 4 votes were anti-town, or 4 people were anti-town?
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D3 23/25

Postby vodean on Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:08 pm

thats good info anyways. we can narrow the list down a fair bit. some of them (us) may be third party though, and i believe that for these purposes 3rd party are anti-town, meaning that we have no idea about scum
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D3 23/25

Postby jak111 on Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:42 pm

vodean wrote:thats good info anyways. we can narrow the list down a fair bit. some of them (us) may be third party though, and i believe that for these purposes 3rd party are anti-town, meaning that we have no idea about scum


Although honestly, do we care if they're 3rd party? Either way there's 4 non townies in the voting process.

@ Chap, I do not know what's the story on whether or not it'll count Victor's vote as scummy, for now let's assume not unless we have evidence otherwise. With my own personal point of view I view Violet as cleared for the most part, leaving the list to 4 non town and 5 town. I know that's not a great number to decrease to.

I have a question I want you to answer directly though. Was that vote checker thing once a day, once a game, or infinite? I am assuming the first or second or you'd be checking every vote count. If it's once a day we need a doc or something be willing to protect you. (Without him outing himself) but if it's once a game, then I don't see it worth wasting the doc on unless we get no better guys to protect.

Saf, jonty, soundman, aage, JG, Nag, DRoZ, Strike, Vodean

I am going to post that above just this last time for today's length so we have a reference for future. FOUR of the above nine are non town, meaning if we have no better leads, we pick from one of them.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D3 23/25

Postby jgordon1111 on Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:55 am

chapcrap wrote:When can a case not be made against VS?

Ok, I'll share my info because no one else is willing and I feel like it will help. What I know is that on the last lynch, 4 were anti-town. That is why edoc had to post the vote count, because I needed him to for the information. Here is the VC:
edocsil wrote:For various reasons a final VC from yesterday was requested.

Jak (5) ~ shaggy, pcm, cm5, Sam, gregwolf
Vodean (1) ~ lsu
Iliad (2) ~ /, Fifth
gregwolf (12) ~ Saf, jonty, soundman, violet, aage, JG, Nag, DRoZ jak, ???, Strike, Vodean

So, the part about I am wondering about is the ??? vote. Either way, I think it's valuable to get that information on a group of players. So, I'll be sharing.


LOL just for fun and games Jak lets keep the list in its entirety for now,no one is eliminated or assured town at this point.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D3 23/25

Postby jgordon1111 on Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:59 am

Crap forgot something. you have played to long to make that mistake in your night action Jak,you would have made sure of your target.

Vote Jak thinking something wrong for a while and that was a big mistake there for you.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D3 23/25

Postby aage on Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:50 am

I have two remarks.

Personally I believe that Jak was the one casting the vote, therefore we should assume Jak's alignment is what matters.

Secondly, Jak, you struck VioIet off the list immediately. Why?
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D3 23/25

Postby chapcrap on Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:12 am

DRoZ wrote:Were you told that 4 votes were anti-town, or 4 people were anti-town?

jak111 wrote:I have a question I want you to answer directly though. Was that vote checker thing once a day, once a game, or infinite?

My ability is to know the number of people on a lynch that are anti-town. There has only been one lynch. My PM only said "The answer is 4." I assume that is 4 people, not votes, because that's what my role PM said.
jgordon1111 wrote:LOL just for fun and games Jak lets keep the list in its entirety for now,no one is eliminated or assured town at this point.

+1
aage wrote:Personally I believe that Jak was the one casting the vote, therefore we should assume Jak's alignment is what matters.

Secondly, Jak, you struck VioIet off the list immediately. Why?

No, jak's alignment doesn't really matter. What matters is whether both votes count for him or one counts for VS. Either way, jak's alignment doesn't matter. All that matters is whether or not we need to include VS in the list. My inclination is no because he isn't the one who voted.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D3 23/25

Postby aage on Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:15 am

chapcrap wrote:
aage wrote:Personally I believe that Jak was the one casting the vote, therefore we should assume Jak's alignment is what matters.

Secondly, Jak, you struck VioIet off the list immediately. Why?

No, jak's alignment doesn't really matter. What matters is whether both votes count for him or one counts for VS. Either way, jak's alignment doesn't matter. All that matters is whether or not we need to include VS in the list. My inclination is no because he isn't the one who voted.

Yeah, that is what I said. And because of that we shouldn't care about VS's alignment, but Jak's. If he is scum that would mean he casted 2 of those 4 votes... or at least, that's what I assumed. You never said whether 4 votes or 4 players on the last lynch were anti-town.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D3 23/25

Postby chapcrap on Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:31 am

aage wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
aage wrote:Personally I believe that Jak was the one casting the vote, therefore we should assume Jak's alignment is what matters.

Secondly, Jak, you struck VioIet off the list immediately. Why?

No, jak's alignment doesn't really matter. What matters is whether both votes count for him or one counts for VS. Either way, jak's alignment doesn't matter. All that matters is whether or not we need to include VS in the list. My inclination is no because he isn't the one who voted.

Yeah, that is what I said. And because of that we shouldn't care about VS's alignment, but Jak's. If he is scum that would mean he casted 2 of those 4 votes... or at least, that's what I assumed. You never said whether 4 votes or 4 players on the last lynch were anti-town.

Yes I did. I specifically addressed that. Skimmer.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D3 23/25

Postby aage on Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:06 pm

chapcrap wrote:
aage wrote:
chapcrap wrote:
aage wrote:Personally I believe that Jak was the one casting the vote, therefore we should assume Jak's alignment is what matters.

Secondly, Jak, you struck VioIet off the list immediately. Why?

No, jak's alignment doesn't really matter. What matters is whether both votes count for him or one counts for VS. Either way, jak's alignment doesn't matter. All that matters is whether or not we need to include VS in the list. My inclination is no because he isn't the one who voted.

Yeah, that is what I said. And because of that we shouldn't care about VS's alignment, but Jak's. If he is scum that would mean he casted 2 of those 4 votes... or at least, that's what I assumed. You never said whether 4 votes or 4 players on the last lynch were anti-town.

Yes I did. I specifically addressed that. Skimmer.

Sorry, I largely ignored the part that wasn't addressed to me. You're right, and I agree. Still, weird response from edoc. Did you ask a question?
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D3 23/25

Postby jak111 on Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:41 pm

aage wrote:I have two remarks.

Personally I believe that Jak was the one casting the vote, therefore we should assume Jak's alignment is what matters.

Secondly, Jak, you struck VioIet off the list immediately. Why?


Because of what she said, I can only assume she has a near same pm as I for win condition, etc. I didn't mention what it said when she said it and she was dead on with a few things changed as to not copy role pm. So hence, she is more cleared in my mind for now.

chapcrap wrote:All that matters is whether or not we need to include VS in the list. My inclination is no because he isn't the one who voted.


This is my train of thought as well, I believe Victor's vote whether he's non town or not would not show up because I used his vote.

Very little going on since I last posted, but I will address JG, I'm busy, I spend the time I got posting or sending in actions if it's night time. I was looking at the wrong list (multiple tabs with two games open) and sent in the wrong name without thinking later about it until the day started and I was told he wasn't in the game so I would not receive his vote.

Then you ask why I take myself off of it? Why not? I know I am clear to myself and if I were anti town I wouldn't be as open as I've been so far, you've played with me long enough to know that.

The biggest worry I have at the moment is Chap's results being tampered with or being flawed in some way. However it seems like a reasonably balanced role that is only effective with multiple results (like trying to narrow down who is scum).

If we have a protection role, I suggest they be on Chap and we go for a lynch today. It will either FORCE scum to group up again or start weeding out people. For example.

We narrowed it down to 10 people (9 for my gut feeling), 4 of which are non town in the lynch. Now tomorrow we get to find out how many either stayed or retracted. For example, say tomorrow we find only 2 non town in the lynch with roughly the same people on the list. We can effectively then conclude that two of the people NOT in the lynch that was in the lynch D2 are in face scum. Now, if they work together and try to have 4 in it again, we can start semi-clearing town off as they are not on the lynch and not part of the four non town.

Either way, we either get the few stragglers trying to avoid it, or the group huddled together trying to avoid being found as a straggler. Interesting eh? ;)
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D3 23/25

Postby chapcrap on Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:07 pm

aage wrote:Sorry, I largely ignored the part that wasn't addressed to me. You're right, and I agree. Still, weird response from edoc. Did you ask a question?

I PM'ed him saying that I needed a vote count shown for my role. He made a post about not receiving everyone's night action, so I PM'ed him again to make sure he knew that I wanted to know. We exchanged a couple of PMs about it, because he was explaining his method for modding a little and why he didn't tell me earlier. Then his last PM came with the response' "The answer is 4."
jak111 wrote:If we have a protection role, I suggest they be on Chap and we go for a lynch today. It will either FORCE scum to group up again or start weeding out people. For example.

Eh. I'm not sure my role is valuable enough for protecting. Either way, we go over things like this every game. Doctor, jailer, whoever, do not tell the scum what your plan is. That gives them an advantage.

jak111 wrote:We narrowed it down to 10 people (9 for my gut feeling), 4 of which are non town in the lynch. Now tomorrow we get to find out how many either stayed or retracted. For example, say tomorrow we find only 2 non town in the lynch with roughly the same people on the list. We can effectively then conclude that two of the people NOT in the lynch that was in the lynch D2 are in face scum. Now, if they work together and try to have 4 in it again, we can start semi-clearing town off as they are not on the lynch and not part of the four non town.

Either way, we either get the few stragglers trying to avoid it, or the group huddled together trying to avoid being found as a straggler. Interesting eh? ;)

I think we have it narrowed to 11, not 9 or 10. You keep removing yourself and Vio. I don't think the rest of us can feel that way right now. Perhaps pressuring the people on the lynch would bring more evidence for us.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D3 23/25

Postby jak111 on Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:16 pm

chapcrap wrote:I think we have it narrowed to 11, not 9 or 10. You keep removing yourself and Vio. I don't think the rest of us can feel that way right now. Perhaps pressuring the people on the lynch would bring more evidence for us.


Put it this way, I'm as clear as anyone can get unless investigated. My role is proven, I'm open to town, and I'm trying to narrow down the list so it doesn't look like we have to FOS half the players in the game.

Though enough on that for now, if you're up to it I think we should try to create a pressuring method. Pick 2 players, pressure both for a claim, (and at this point with 4 non town in that list of players a claim is pretty much mandatory if they wish to not be lynched). Get a couple of claims and start weeding out counter claims, investigations, etc.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D3 23/25

Postby / on Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:41 pm

Sorry that I've been missing.
That role sounds like a godsend to have late game, I'm trying to think about the solutions to one of those classic coin weighing games where you try to use the scale as few times as possible to find the fake...
Unfortunately I'm running on empty here tonight.
We should probably fix who should and shouldn't be on each day's bandwagon from now on, so let's try to work it out while we decide on a target.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D3 23/25

Postby vodean on Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:48 pm

jak111 wrote:
chapcrap wrote:I think we have it narrowed to 11, not 9 or 10. You keep removing yourself and Vio. I don't think the rest of us can feel that way right now. Perhaps pressuring the people on the lynch would bring more evidence for us.


Put it this way, I'm as clear as anyone can get unless investigated. My role is proven, I'm open to town, and I'm trying to narrow down the list so it doesn't look like we have to FOS half the players in the game.

Though enough on that for now, if you're up to it I think we should try to create a pressuring method. Pick 2 players, pressure both for a claim, (and at this point with 4 non town in that list of players a claim is pretty much mandatory if they wish to not be lynched). Get a couple of claims and start weeding out counter claims, investigations, etc.

hey. i think we should pressure you for not wanting to be pressured, and avoiding being pressured. im not saying we need to lynch you, but you are as good a place as any to start. plus, the only way you can be sure about someone's role if they havent claimed is if you are masoned, whether town, scum, or 3rd party.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D3 23/25

Postby jak111 on Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:54 pm

/ wrote:Sorry that I've been missing.
That role sounds like a godsend to have late game, I'm trying to think about the solutions to one of those classic coin weighing games where you try to use the scale as few times as possible to find the fake...
Unfortunately I'm running on empty here tonight.
We should probably fix who should and shouldn't be on each day's bandwagon from now on, so let's try to work it out while we decide on a target.


Agreed!

Too tired tonight to choose, but we'll do this before day ends.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D3 23/25

Postby vodean on Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:40 pm

jak111 wrote:
/ wrote:Sorry that I've been missing.
That role sounds like a godsend to have late game, I'm trying to think about the solutions to one of those classic coin weighing games where you try to use the scale as few times as possible to find the fake...
Unfortunately I'm running on empty here tonight.
We should probably fix who should and shouldn't be on each day's bandwagon from now on, so let's try to work it out while we decide on a target.


Agreed!

Too tired tonight to choose, but we'll do this before day ends.

sounds like it should work out well.
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