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Re: Money Mafia (6/20)

Postby rishaed on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:39 pm

^i would think that they wouldnt get any money.... they effectively didn't lynch the person so they shouldnt get money from them.
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Re: Money Mafia (6/20)

Postby Rodion on Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:09 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:Agreed. VIg is like a 100% accuracy cop, plus you get money.


But if you target a townie, said townie dies. With a cop, if you target town, town gets to live with an innocent result.

I think Jonty and you are overestimating the value of a vig. Vig is such a dangerous role that vigilantes are usually encouraged not to act. Cops have no such problem.


DoomYoshi wrote:EDIT: Cop Investigate is more expensive than frame, which is weird.


That's intended. Frame is only good if it hits the exact player that was investigated. I may bump its cost to 200-250, but it should still be cheaper than an investigation.

DoomYoshi wrote:EDIT again: If a wagon is formed, and people jump on after lynch, but before scene is posted, do they get a share of the money?


After the hammer vote, all votes are invalid.
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Re: Money Mafia (6/20)

Postby aage on Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:51 pm

Rodion wrote:That's intended. Frame is only good if it hits the exact player that was investigated. I may bump its cost to 200-250, but it should still be cheaper than an investigation.

I would back up Rodion on this, the chances of having a "successful" frame are incredibly low.
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Re: Money Mafia (6/20)

Postby Some7hingCLEVER on Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:40 pm

IN Like Flynn!!!! this sounds like a blast
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Re: Money Mafia (6/20)

Postby Hank44Soccer on Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:50 pm

In please
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Re: Money Mafia (6/20)

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:19 am

Rodion wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:Agreed. VIg is like a 100% accuracy cop, plus you get money.


But if you target a townie, said townie dies. With a cop, if you target town, town gets to live with an innocent result.

I think Jonty and you are overestimating the value of a vig. Vig is such a dangerous role that vigilantes are usually encouraged not to act. Cops have no such problem.




I used to hate vig's. Actually on Mafiascum, I started a lengthy discussion about whether vig's should be modkilled for using their role. However, I have since flipped entirely to the other side of the vig/cop debate. This is a matter of perspective, but the most basic argument is that the game is decided at LYLO. When you are at LYLO, you want maximum information. Information gained from a dead player is maximum information. Information gained from a cop is not maximum information, as it has the potential to be tainted.

First off, town living isn't the greatest thing ever. It would be nice if town got a perfect game, but I don't think that's a realistic goal, and I would argue that because it isn't a realistic goal it shouldn't be your goal. You shouldn't be thinking: how can town only lynch scum and not lynch or vig any townies? You instead should be thinking: how can I insure that by LYLO there will be enough correct information for town to win the game?

Second: a cop investigate might still end up getting lynched. I am willing to bet that one of the ???s is a recruit, and as the game progresses, Cop Investigates will be worth less and less. Second, with cheap framing, results will always be in question, regardless of your posited accuracy. Not that I have ever played a great framer (my first mafia game I was a framer), but I know enough now about meta that as mafia, I could figure any frame by night 3 (the first time someone can afford a cop).

Third: without casting doubt on results, the mafia now has a target for killing, as cop-confirmed, while not maximal information is still better than no town information. So, does it matter to a player that you get killed by a vig or you get subsequently killed thanks to the meddling cop? Maybe, but it shouldn't too much.


Anyways, I am going to announce my town strategy now. I am going to do nothing N1 and Vig whoever is scummiest N2. I suggest everyone else do the same, so we get a D2 bloodbath and a D3 LYLO. Not sure if that is the "correct" strategy, but if half of the town uses it, and pushes us to D4 LYLO, we should be winnable.
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Re: Money Mafia (6/20)

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:20 am

Actually, if half vig and half watch, we will have enough info (hopefully).

Does the mafia NK cost money? Is that the ??? @ 150. I understand if you can't tell us.

2 strategies:

N1: P1 tracks P2, P2 tracks P3, ... , P20 tracks P1.

Anyone who kills is busted.

N2 repeat.

This may never end in victory if mafia chooses not to kill, but it is an endgame scenario.

One could argue that mafia doesn't have to track but then the player tracking them would see that they went nowhere and are saving money for a kill.

By the time they can afford a kill (if they have to spend on one), mafia will have won if we haven't lynched them. Essentially making it a nightless game... hmm.

Rodion, I think for this to work, different players are going to need to have slightly different buy-in values, and those values should potentially be mod-enforced hidden.
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Re: Money Mafia (6/20)

Postby superkeener on Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:27 am

screw it... i feel greedy. In please.
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Re: Money Mafia (6/20)

Postby jak111 on Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:19 pm

In, I promised myself I wouldn't play any more games while I host, but what the hell, you're a good player and this game looks too interesting to pass up XD
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Re: Money Mafia (6/20)

Postby aage on Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:37 am

Might be "interesting", but most roles are pretty useless.
Rodion wrote:Town

Track – 90 - useless, everyone has all actions
Roleblock – 90 - T/N chance to hit town (which is always >50%) and therefore inefficient to use on mafia
Vig – 150 - best action town has
Protection – 150 - this should have been "bulletproof for 1 round" or something along those lines, or simply be more expensive; this ability can be bought twice every three rounds on base income alone. Even though the rest of town actions suck, this one is actually overpowered.
Watch – 150 - useless, everyone has all actions
Busdrive – 180 - only screws up everything town does
Investigate – 350 - bloody expensive

Mafia

Protection – 80 - why protect, you're mafia
Track – 80 - useless, you have no power roles to find and therefore no actions to track
Watch – 150 - same
Frame – 150 - you have a one in N chance to hit the right guy and an even smaller chance to do so in the correct round, useless
??? - 150 - only interesting ability so far
Vote steal – 200 - only useful if entire mafia group does it at lylo (which then is no longer lylo)
Roleblock – 200 - only actual useful role in the game, since all towns will probably use something by day 3/4
??? – 300 - another interesting ability
??? – 500 - again
Just saying.

Don't take my critique as personal Rodion, I have the best intentions... but half of these actions will either never be used and the game will simply blow itself up by day 2/3 due to excessive vigging.
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Re: Money Mafia (6/20)

Postby Rodion on Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:21 am

I lost internet connection for more than 36 hours. That's how good services are in Brazil. Well, finally back now.

aage wrote:Don't take my critique as personal Rodion, I have the best intentions... but half of these actions will either never be used and the game will simply blow itself up by day 2/3 due to excessive vigging.



I don't mind critique. I'm considering to make vig more expensive, not because I believe it is a powerful enough town action, but because I'd rather not see people use it willy-nilly.
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Re: Money Mafia (6/20)

Postby Rodion on Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:24 am

DoomYoshi wrote:[color=#008000]First off, town living isn't the greatest thing ever. It would be nice if town got a perfect game, but I don't think that's a realistic goal, and I would argue that because it isn't a realistic goal it shouldn't be your goal. You shouldn't be thinking: how can town only lynch scum and not lynch or vig any townies? You instead should be thinking: how can I insure that by LYLO there will be enough correct information for town to win the game?


There are different kinds of LYLO. You can have a 3-player LYLO with 2 town and 1 mafia or a 11-player LYLO with 6 town and 5 mafia, which forces you to make successive right calls in order to save the game.

Vigging people haphazardly is more likely bringing games to hard LYLOs rather than easy ones.

This is not to mention town can win before LYLO even arrives. And they should strive for that. Vigging usually hastens LYLO time, which means cop gets less nights to investigate, tracker/watcher gets less nights to track/watch and mafia is forced to fakeclaim less nights worth of night actions (which means chances they are caught in a lie are lowered).

By the way, I had intended to make a recruitment option. It would originally cost 1200, but I've given up on that idea since I don't really like cult mechanics.

EDIT: mafia gets their usual NK without having to spend for it.
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Re: Money Mafia (9/20)

Postby jak111 on Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:25 pm

Regarding Aage's "critique" he seems to not be able to see all the strategies we as town or mafia can do to plan to catch/foil mafia/town. If you believe most of them are useless then you lost what the point behind them are.

Trackers and Watchers are "useless" in your terms in all games, until they see someone visiting the dead. I already have a few plans worked out to use each of these roles as a team in my head. Although if you are against me Aage, you make yourself seem an easy target without being able to formulate plans with the roles given.
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Re: Money Mafia (6/20)

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:45 pm

aage wrote:
Don't take my critique as personal Rodion, I have the best intentions... but half of these actions will either never be used and the game will simply blow itself up by day 2/3 due to excessive vigging.


I echo this sentiment. Glad to hear you have internet again.
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Re: Money Mafia (9/20)

Postby safariguy5 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:25 pm

Sounds fun, I'll play.
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Re: Money Mafia (9/20)

Postby aage on Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:40 pm

jak111 wrote:Regarding Aage's "critique" he seems to not be able to see all the strategies we as town or mafia can do to plan to catch/foil mafia/town. If you believe most of them are useless then you lost what the point behind them are.

Trackers and Watchers are "useless" in your terms in all games, until they see someone visiting the dead. I already have a few plans worked out to use each of these roles as a team in my head. Although if you are against me Aage, you make yourself seem an easy target without being able to formulate plans with the roles given.

You seem to misunderstand the problem.

In a regular game, the power roles stay the power roles. Doctors will always be doctors and cops will always be cops, VTs will always be VTs.

In this game, finding out someone did something gives you nothing.
If you're town, you will find out that people visited other people, which is obvious; players can (and will) use an action three out of four nights. This will provide you with no role info since scum and town have equally much access to these actions. "Oh, this person used an action... it appears that this person must be either town or scum. Thanks, Tracker action!"
If you're scum, this will be even more useless. As town you may actually chance upon a scum performing the NK, low as that chance may be. As scum, watching is normally useful because it allows you to track the power roles and kill them systematically. In this game, EVERYONE is a power role and therefore you would have to kill everyone. This defeats the point of tracking and watching them, since you already know who your priority target is: everyone!

This is why tracking and watching is useless in this setup.
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Re: Money Mafia (10/20)

Postby soundman on Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:18 pm

I'm in!
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Re: Money Mafia (11/20)

Postby spiesr on Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:04 pm

Re: aage
While watchers are trackers are somewhat less usefull in this game than in a standard one they still aren't entirely useless. A watcher can still catch a scum killing someone (unless the scum have an assassin action that they can purcahse or something). A tracker can do the same but with much lower certainty. They can also be used to help prevent the scum from lying about what they are doing at night as easily.
While these abilities aren't very useful to the scum, they still have to have access to them or the town could break the game by demanding that a certain player track another player. (Using a doc action that keep Player 2 alive.) If the scum didn't have tracking that stratgey seems like it would be nearly foolproof.

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Re: Money Mafia (12/20)

Postby edocsil on Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:57 am

I'm out. I'm tired of Mafia on this forum.
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Re: Money Mafia (12/20)

Postby Rodion on Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:15 pm

edocsil wrote:I'm out. I'm tired of Mafia on this forum.


Understandable.
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Re: Money Mafia (12/20)

Postby edocsil on Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:08 pm

Rodion wrote:
edocsil wrote:I'm out. I'm tired of Mafia on this forum.


Understandable.


I'm really frustrated ATM, all the games are so stagnant right now and I don't really see what can redone to improve the situation.
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Re: Money Mafia (11/20)

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:48 pm

Mods could make me a treestump in every game and then I can guarantee high post volume all game long.
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Re: Money Mafia (11/20)

Postby jak111 on Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:38 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:Mods could make me a treestump in every game and then I can guarantee high post volume all game long.


^ Don't give me any ideas <.< I'll make you a stump alright... XD

But I am missing from sign-up list? D:
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Re: Money Mafia (11/20)

Postby Rodion on Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:09 pm

jak111 wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:Mods could make me a treestump in every game and then I can guarantee high post volume all game long.


^ Don't give me any ideas <.< I'll make you a stump alright... XD

But I am missing from sign-up list? D:


Fixed!
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Re: Money Mafia (12/20)

Postby Rodion on Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:10 pm

edocsil wrote:
Rodion wrote:
edocsil wrote:I'm out. I'm tired of Mafia on this forum.


Understandable.


I'm really frustrated ATM, all the games are so stagnant right now and I don't really see what can redone to improve the situation.


Yep, that sucks. I'd go to mafia scum if they weren't so obnoxious.
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Location: São Paulo, Brazil
Medals: 83
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Battle Royale Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (27) General Achievement (9) Clan Achievement (14) Tournament Contribution (3)
General Contribution (1)

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