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Chariot of Fire[closed]

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Re: Chariot of Fire[pending]es

Postby jefjef on Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:18 am

Crazyirishman wrote:
greenoaks wrote:if CoF is banned, who will lead the vendetta against GLGH?


Dawg, there's always somebody to lead a vendetta against somebody who doesn't play the Internet games the way we subjectively think it should be played. If CoF is banned, I'm sure somebody will step up to the plate to get some good ole' conq bashing in.


I'll step up to the plate on this one!!!! =D>

BTW: I have been spending sometime on GREPOLIS. I'm on an island in area 35. Seems to be a pretty cool site and impossible to cheat at. But I'll tell you what - I used the word "fucking" in a message and got a 6 point deduction. I only have 18 points of offensive words left before I'm temporarily banned. :x

Oh. Um. Chuuucks motives are unimportant here. Hang em all!
This post was made by jefjef who should be on your ignore list.
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Re: Chariot of Fire[pending]es

Postby Master Fenrir on Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:52 am

SaviorShot wrote:TOFU should be kicked out of all active clan games for this.

Why? That'd be like your entire clan getting forum banned just because you post thoughtless opinions.
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Re: Chariot of Fire[pending]es

Postby hwhrhett on Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:00 am

wow......
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Re: Chariot of Fire[pending]es

Postby freakns on Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:41 am

first of all, this IS personal vendetta. justified or not, its still personal. Chuck can shit whole day long how he did this for good of the site, but its bullshit, he did it because he is butthurt for getting thrown out of TOFU... and dont denied it, makes you look silly.


second, after ive seen all of this, CoF you were calling me yesterday a cheater even though ive prove to you i havent read your PM with games until i send you mine? and accusing me ive changed games(even though all the games ive sent you for 2nd batch are games we played in every clan wAr so far...)?! you should be ashamed...

i dont care what happens and what mods decide. im disappointed that person for who i thought is one of most honest guys here has actually done this :(
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Re: Chariot of Fire[pending]es

Postby Foxglove on Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:44 am

freakns wrote: im disappointed that person for who i thought is one of most honest guys here has actually done this :(


It's hard to feel like this is anything other than a delicious comeuppance for a self-righteous hypocrite.
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Re: Chariot of Fire[pending]es

Postby freakns on Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:10 am

Foxglove wrote:
freakns wrote: im disappointed that person for who i thought is one of most honest guys here has actually done this :(


It's hard to feel like this is anything other than a delicious comeuppance for a self-righteous hypocrite.

i still dont think Simon is hypocrite... he did wrong, and he will probably being punished, but i dont think he is hypocrite... we all do it. as Pete said, most of top games are actually one mind battles. you are in those games too... only difference are reactions dependable on situations during taking turns, and thats why i think everyone should take their own turns...

as i said, im disappointed... and you are gloating... and yet we should be looking at this with same pair of eyes. think about that sometimes ;)
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Re: Chariot of Fire[pending]es

Postby Denise on Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:30 am

I resent the implication that I, as a member of TOFU, would allow CoF or anybody else to take my turn if I am able to take it myself. This picture that's being painted of our clan is ridiculous. CoF has never once taken a turn for me, except for a few days at the end of June, when I was on a vacation.

I also, along with my teammates, plan my own strategy. I don't play this game to have someone else outside the game, or even in the game, dictate my every move. Anyone who has ever teamed with me will know this. To those of you who believe TOFU in it's entirety is guilty of putting all our eggs in the CoF basket, can you honestly look at the players on our roster and believe this to be true? Think about some of these players and your experiences in playing with them and against them. Does it seem to you that they are the types of players to turn their games over to another? It's laughable, really.

There are a few isolated games with a few players who, because of their history of missed turns and unreliability, CoF did cover for, perhaps in some cases prematurely. Charlie was one of those players. His experience is not mine. I was in my games and taking my turns, so there was no need for CoF to jump on at the last minute for me and cover. Perhaps there were some lapses where Pedro and the others could have taken their turns, but with time after time of missed turns, who is to know? (Sorry Pedro, but you did miss a few.)

This is not a matter of CoF visiting every game and dictating every move, as has been alleged. It's more a matter of revenge for being removed from the clan. The allegations made have nothing to do with why Chuck was removed from the clan, of that I am sure. The reason I'm sure of it is because I and several others were part of a discussion about who should be removed from the clan. CoF doesn't make all the decisions; TOFU is not a dictatorship. I know this really has nothing to do with the report, but the inference is insulting to every member of TOFU, so I wanted to dispute it.

I'd like to ask that +1 posts and the gloating KORT posts, or any posts that don't contribute to the case, cease. I don't want this thread to be locked. I hope it can remain open so that those who would like to refute have that opportunity. It takes time to build a case, so it makes sense that it takes some time to defend it. If the community feels a need to rehash sentiments on either side, please open a GD thread for it.
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Re: Chariot of Fire[pending]es

Postby lord voldemort on Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:05 am

Its times like these I wish I was still a hunter so I could see the whole picture. Cause only they know really whats going on completely. Its mostly intriguing.
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Re: Chariot of Fire[pending]es

Postby jackal31 on Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:37 am

Denise wrote:I resent the implication that I, as a member of TOFU, would allow CoF or anybody else to take my turn if I am able to take it myself. This picture that's being painted of our clan is ridiculous. CoF has never once taken a turn for me, except for a few days at the end of June, when I was on a vacation.

I also, along with my teammates, plan my own strategy. I don't play this game to have someone else outside the game, or even in the game, dictate my every move.

This is not a matter of CoF visiting every game and dictating every move, as has been alleged. It's more a matter of revenge for being removed from the clan.

Denise, I respect your opinion and listen when you have something to say. I want to know your side of this. Do you agree with what has been posted? Is this a poorly painted picture? It looks pretty solid when both IM and Si are on at the same time on IM's account and playing his turn for him. Also, to have Nik come on and take a turn a few minutes after Si takes it is fishy too. I know Nik used to get low on his turns, but he was always very reliable and rarely missed. My curiosity was how much time was remaining? I would let turns go under an hour if they were in jeopardy of missing without being asked to sit.

On another note too, I didnt notice if Si posted he was sitting turns. I thought that was a MUST when sitting accounts now. One thing I have always done (personally) is post for the game to see.

Denise wrote:I'd like to ask that +1 posts and the gloating KORT posts, or any posts that don't contribute to the case, cease. I don't want this thread to be locked. I hope it can remain open so that those who would like to refute have that opportunity.

I agree completely. I'm sure everyone would like to hear it, but it's a matter of making it that far into the thread.
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Re: Chariot of Fire[pending]es

Postby comic boy on Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:19 am

Denise wrote:I resent the implication that I, as a member of TOFU, would allow CoF or anybody else to take my turn if I am able to take it myself. This picture that's being painted of our clan is ridiculous. CoF has never once taken a turn for me, except for a few days at the end of June, when I was on a vacation.

I also, along with my teammates, plan my own strategy. I don't play this game to have someone else outside the game, or even in the game, dictate my every move. Anyone who has ever teamed with me will know this. To those of you who believe TOFU in it's entirety is guilty of putting all our eggs in the CoF basket, can you honestly look at the players on our roster and believe this to be true? Think about some of these players and your experiences in playing with them and against them. Does it seem to you that they are the types of players to turn their games over to another? It's laughable, really.

There are a few isolated games with a few players who, because of their history of missed turns and unreliability, CoF did cover for, perhaps in some cases prematurely. Charlie was one of those players. His experience is not mine. I was in my games and taking my turns, so there was no need for CoF to jump on at the last minute for me and cover. Perhaps there were some lapses where Pedro and the others could have taken their turns, but with time after time of missed turns, who is to know? (Sorry Pedro, but you did miss a few.)

This is not a matter of CoF visiting every game and dictating every move, as has been alleged. It's more a matter of revenge for being removed from the clan. The allegations made have nothing to do with why Chuck was removed from the clan, of that I am sure. The reason I'm sure of it is because I and several others were part of a discussion about who should be removed from the clan. CoF doesn't make all the decisions; TOFU is not a dictatorship. I know this really has nothing to do with the report, but the inference is insulting to every member of TOFU, so I wanted to dispute it.

I'd like to ask that +1 posts and the gloating KORT posts, or any posts that don't contribute to the case, cease. I don't want this thread to be locked. I hope it can remain open so that those who would like to refute have that opportunity. It takes time to build a case, so it makes sense that it takes some time to defend it. If the community feels a need to rehash sentiments on either side, please open a GD thread for it.


Well said Denise !
As a recent recruit to TOFU I can assure you all that nobody has taken any of my turns and I would not remain in a clan under the circumstances described by the OP.
Chuck admits that the ' abuse ' only became apparent around the time he was largely away from the site , ie that Si covered his turns during the period that Chuck was likely to miss them....DOH.
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Re: Chariot of Fire[pending]es

Postby Dibbun on Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:48 am

Denise wrote:I resent the implication that I, as a member of TOFU, would allow CoF or anybody else to take my turn if I am able to take it myself. This picture that's being painted of our clan is ridiculous. CoF has never once taken a turn for me, except for a few days at the end of June, when I was on a vacation.

I also, along with my teammates, plan my own strategy. I don't play this game to have someone else outside the game, or even in the game, dictate my every move. Anyone who has ever teamed with me will know this. To those of you who believe TOFU in it's entirety is guilty of putting all our eggs in the CoF basket, can you honestly look at the players on our roster and believe this to be true? Think about some of these players and your experiences in playing with them and against them. Does it seem to you that they are the types of players to turn their games over to another? It's laughable, really.


Resent it all you want. You were aware of CoF's habits and even if he never took a turn for you, you are still complicit in his cheating.

Chuuuuck wrote:
Game 11177036


2012-06-21 07:49:01 - Denise [team]: Do you think it's a good idea to do that, Simon?
2012-06-21 09:51:14 - Pedronicus [team]: yeah, I think so - when yellow only has 1 card I do. We cash for 4,6,8,10,12. Green & blue get 15 & 20. I probably would have been more reserved had yellow held more cards (Chariot of Fire)
2012-06-21 09:51:30 - Pedronicus [team]: but to snaffle red's 4 cards before he can play......lovely (Chariot of Fire)
2012-06-21 09:52:26 - Pedronicus [team]: CoF for Pete btw. Was covering in another game - plus it's Thursday (Pete's poker night) so he'd probably be grateful if I cover these too (Chariot of Fire)
2012-06-21 09:53:05 - Pedronicus [team]: plus that would have been a shedload to write (Chariot of Fire)
2012-06-21 09:53:27 - Pedronicus [team]: perfect turn btw - all objectives achieved there. (Chariot of Fire)
2012-06-21 09:54:12 - Pedronicus [team]: what a shame yellow got those 2 x American terrs. Look at Chuck's cards (Chariot of Fire)

2012-06-20 18:07:22 - Pirlo ended the turn and got spoils
2012-06-21 09:41:21 - Pedronicus received 4 troops for 14 regions

You can see from the log posted above, Pedronicus had until 18:07 on 06/21/12 to take his own turn, yet Chariot of Fire hopped in to take it with almost 9 hours remaining even though Pedronicus was online later that day and made the post below at 16:13 on 06/21/12. What is even worse is Chariot of Fire says he took it while "covering another game," which the other games are shown below. You can also see Chariot of Fire's real reason, it would of been a lot of instructions for him to write. So it was easier for him to just do it himself



Oh and from that game:

2012-06-12 10:39:36 - Benzorrr: tofu: as you guys just saw we had a non-teammate take a turn for pirlo. i'm not quite sure how that happened, but technically, it is against the rules. in the interest of fair play i wanted to inform you.
2012-06-12 11:37:03 - agentcom: Yeah, that sucks ... To let you know, he followed instructions that we had left for Pirlo
2012-06-12 12:30:35 - Chariot of Fire: no problem guys, but thanks for being upfront about it.

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Re: Chariot of Fire[pending]es

Postby Chariot of Fire on Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:28 am

Well, I'll do what I can here to explain the sequence of events so people are better-informed as to what has occurred. This is not me pleading any defence, but rather putting forward some mitigating circumstances that might alleviate the degree of severity with which this matter is dealt and also have readers understand that there is not a systematic abuse of sitting conducted by players in the clan. What is contained in the OP is the only example of some isolated incidents (and for the most part are unmerited, but I'm not saying all).

Chuck has gone back through the history of our games, from when he joined the clan in March 2011 to present day, and has produced just 11 games where I have sat for others. The earliest example of this is as recently as mid-March of this year, which is when problems with him started to arise. Reliability issues (missed turns, etc) became a constant source of frustration and it became necessary to be more vigilant about his turn-taking and provide cover if necessary. Game 10716308 is the earliest example in his allegations - a case where he had been about to miss in another game and this one had under 7 hours on the clock. Whilst it may have been approaching morning his time, it was approaching bed time for me. Do I leave it and let the turn get missed? What do others do in cases like this? Hope the player turns up?

Of the majority of the cases listed in the OP there was a genuine need to play the turn on the absent person's behalf. Either they were away (the Swedish guys all went to the Euros in Ukraine) or were absent/unavailable to take their turns. In virtually every instance I waited until the clock was almost timed out - these are not the actions of someone who was determined to play the turn regardless. Pedro has trouble at work taking turns and on Thursday evenings is unavailable (as well as many weekends if he is away doing his art), Steve has been a lot less able to get online due to his job and has virtually retired from CC, thus his last clan game was joined as far back as 11th June and we have not entered him in anything since (and yes, as a result of his absence and inability to play his turns he has occasionally needed covering since mid June). To cite the game with Nikola is simply ridiculous, esp when it can be shown the time was about to run out. Just because the player turns up 20 minutes later and says "phew, damn football made me forget" does not alter the fact cover was needed at the time it could be given. So for the most part the allegations set out in the OP are without merit.

Now, on to the real crux of this report and the instances that I cannot deny were turns taken by me unnecessarily. The greatest volume of the OP is taken up by dialogue copied from three games, Hive. This is a map I personally detest. Prior to Game 11037534 (a game cited in the OP) I had played it just twice - reluctantly, as they happened to be away games so we had to put players in - so I doubt anyone is going to say I'm proficient at it or a better player than anyone else in our clan. If I play it I do so neither for pleasure nor gain. Now Chuck on the other hand is a player who is very able when playing Hive (124 games, nearly all won) and he was very keen to lead our teams when these three games were sent to us by the opposition. However...what does he do? He does a vanishing act and leaves everyone up in the air, asking me to cover for him Not a problem - personal matters come first and we all understood that - yet he did leave us in the lurch as far as Hive went and left me 'holding the baby' so to speak. You can imagine my frustration and annoyance when a week or two later I find he had been playing his own personal Hive speed games (while all this time being supposedly 'absent'). I checked on these games (and many historical ones) and didn't like what I found. The game chat in examples such as Game 11153452, Game 11186463 & Game 11184465 goes beyond the pale - and these are just a small sample - and so in discussion with fellow heads and senior players in clan it was felt necessary to remove him. I also said to Chuck at the time how ridiculous it was that he could venture in and out of games (i.e. intermittently visit the site and post in chat) while all this time expect me to be covering for him. Frankly I didn't wish to in the first place and now it was compounded by the fact I was playing for someone capable of taking his own turns. So the relationship soured and earlier this month I sent him the following PM:

Hey Charlie,

I'm no doctor but I could have told you a long time ago that you weren't able to focus for the duration of a task (I did intimate at it in a PM to you once before), but then I'd have said ADD. I hope though that now you are in possession of all the facts you are able to take some affirmative action and set your life on the right tracks. The best thing, honestly, is to get yourself a healthy hobby (e.g. running) and work to a routine so that you don't find yourself with idle hours in the day. The last thing you should be doing is coming on CC and playing Hive speed games - absolutely pointless, self-serving and with a tendency to bring out the very worst in your character. Several weeks ago I read the game chat in a lot of the 1v1s you had been playing - in particular those you had lost - and was taken aback at the remarks you made to some of your opponents. It seems you have a God-given right to win every time and when you don't then you have lost to "an idiot who just got lucky dice" (to paraphrase one of your comments). You also take steps to have the other player deadbeat once the outcome is obvious (nothing wrong with that) but when the reverse happens and you look like losing you deliberately drag it out as long as possible. It's perhaps the most unsporting thing I've ever witnessed on this site and was an eye-opener in regards to your character. Is that who you are? Suffice to say it was enough to prompt me to take steps to have you removed from clan, as I really don't want anyone in TOFU who plays like that or who disrespects their opponents in the manner you have been. Add to this the difficulty I've faced with you wanting to take a leading role in games and then leaving your team mates up in the air as to what they should do. One minute here, the next minute gone. It simply doesn't work and has created a greater liability than ever it was an asset.

So I'm sorry mate, but it's the end of the road. I think you should seize this opportunity to get yourself on the right tracks and pursue a worthy goal for your own well-being. It's entirely in your hands how you treat CC and whether you'll persevere with games on here, but I can say it won't be with TOFU where the changes we are making are with a view to retaining players who remain 100% focused on the betterment of the clan and not themselves. You my friend need to take an introspective look at why you are on here and what you wish to achieve.

It's been a privilege to know you and I sincerely wish you all the best in your future endeavours.

Simon

p.s. Despite this not being the most pleasant of PMs you'll ever receive I nevertheless hope we part on good terms. On this basis I have not removed you from clan immediately as I think it only fair to afford you the opportunity to address the members should you choose to say farewell.


Pretty civil message I reckon (on re-reading it) so I'm really rather shocked at the vindictive nature of Chuck's post, along with several unsavoury PMs he has since sent me. Anyway, as you can see I had already alluded to his erratic play and how he had been letting his team mates down, so I'm not making any of that up when I spoke of it earlier.

Regrettably...and this I cannot deny...I felt the need to cover the turns of the players in those games. I did so at my behest, not theirs, so there is really no complicity on their part. I was simply trying to do them a favour and keep the games alive to the best of my ability in the absence of our Hive expert. I think it's important to know that my involvement (a player with very limited Hive experience) was not to gain a tactical advantage - it was merely going through the motions of getting the games over and done with as fast as possible. I'm not even the most popular sitter, for I don't use any add-ons and cannot take snaps.

So yes, I am sorry and I do not deny that in a few games I have covered unnecessarily and purposefully for other players. For the most part the allegations in the OP are groundless (if they are not then we all must be guilty of having sat for someone who later turns up or who was about to miss a turn) but I cannot refute that due to some extraordinary circumstances with a very extraordinary (peculiar) person that I took matters into my own hands. Won 1 Lost 1. Hardly setting the world alight with my great tactics.

Now a few have come to this thread and made their condemnations, yet within the last 24 hours I have witnessed two instances of a first turn being played (with unlimited forts) not by the person whose turn it was but by the expert who set-up the game (definitely a tactical advantage) when it had not been necessary to do so. Which is the greater sin, really?

What's quite ironic is that a couple of weeks ago I said my farewells to a few people with every intention of leaving the site and pursuing other interests. As has happened before I was talked out of it and I opted to stay, whereupon I wrote the PM above to Chuck as well as a couple of other guys which had been an action I had been quite reluctant to make. I'm not in the business of creating unhappiness or disharmony so was really prepared to leave rather than exert any authority.

Who knows, maybe in a roundabout way my earlier intention will become my fate.

Thanks for your audience.

CoF
Last edited by BGtheBrain on Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chariot of Fire[pending]es

Postby freakns on Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:50 am

Denise wrote:woman talking... for the sake of mental health, do not quote whole message

so, what you are saying is that CoF hasnt kicked out Chuck, but it was you who did it? so after Empire, you kicked him out of TOFU too... are we to assume you are joining PACK soon? :P

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Re: Chariot of Fire[pending]es

Postby aad0906 on Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:29 am

I would not quote that message up there CoF, it is quite personal and only serves to address Chuuucks motive's, not as defense against the allegation.
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Re: Chariot of Fire[pending]es

Postby niMic on Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:30 am

I'll just sum up CoF's post:

  • Chuuuck is a big meanie
  • I only cheated a little bit
  • Other people are worse
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Re: Chariot of Fire[pending]es

Postby pmchugh on Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:45 am

CoF, can you explain why you did not say in chat that you were covering turns and why you clearly acted in order to hide the fact you were taking the turns? (as seen by the chat about flags)

Also I agree with aad0906, what you quoted about chuuck is quite personal and has no place in this thread.
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Re: Chariot of Fire[pending]es

Postby Foxglove on Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:54 am

pmchugh wrote:CoF, can you explain why you did not say in chat that you were covering turns and why you clearly acted in order to hide the fact you were taking the turns? (as seen by the chat about flags)


Agreed, I also did not see an explanation for any of the following three question. CoF:

1. Why did you so consistently and deliberately refuse to post in (public) game chat when taking a turn for others?
2. How do you justify the many, many instances of flag-switching collusion? The chat indicates pretty clearly that you understood it was wrong, and so you took worked with pedro, iron maid, sonicsteve, etc. to conceal your actions.
3. Your explanations for taking a turn that was low on time and you didn't know if a person would return to take it are totally reasonable. But how do you explain the instances where you took a turn for another player simply because it would have been too much work to type out your instructions for that player to follow?

pmchugh wrote:Also I agree with aad0906, what you quoted about chuuck is quite personal and has no place in this thread.


That's pretty low.
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Re: Chariot of Fire[pending]es

Postby Foxglove on Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:12 am

Denise wrote:I resent the implication that I, as a member of TOFU, would allow CoF or anybody else to take my turn if I am able to take it myself. This picture that's being painted of our clan is ridiculous. CoF has never once taken a turn for me, except for a few days at the end of June, when I was on a vacation.


It is pretty uncomfortable and unpleasant being on your side of the fence! I know this for a fact because I was on the receiving end of a Chariot-of-Fire led clan vendetta for at least a year. And then a subsequent year of far more mild digs and insults. The latest instance, of course, being this GD thread in which CoF insinuated that KORT was a clan full of cheaters after an invite mistake by Dako.

Denise wrote:I also, along with my teammates, plan my own strategy. I don't play this game to have someone else outside the game, or even in the game, dictate my every move. Anyone who has ever teamed with me will know this. To those of you who believe TOFU in it's entirety is guilty of putting all our eggs in the CoF basket, can you honestly look at the players on our roster and believe this to be true? Think about some of these players and your experiences in playing with them and against them. Does it seem to you that they are the types of players to turn their games over to another? It's laughable, really.


Totally agree. Again, this experience is eerily familiar! I hope people are no more willing to believe such things about the members of TOFU as a whole than they were about the members of KORT as a whole previously.

Denise wrote:There are a few isolated games with a few players who, because of their history of missed turns and unreliability, CoF did cover for, perhaps in some cases prematurely. Charlie was one of those players. His experience is not mine. I was in my games and taking my turns, so there was no need for CoF to jump on at the last minute for me and cover. Perhaps there were some lapses where Pedro and the others could have taken their turns, but with time after time of missed turns, who is to know? (Sorry Pedro, but you did miss a few.)


Totally understandable. Do you have any insight into the many, many instances revealed in the game chats in which CoF took turns for other players without a notification in the public game chat? Or why CoF, Iron Maid, Pedro, and sonicsteve engaged in so much discussion to hide the flag-switching activity that occurred in order to allow CoF to take their turns while they were online? Or why CoF revealed that he preferred to just take turns for some players rather than expend the effort needed to type out instructions for them to follow?

Denise wrote:This is not a matter of CoF visiting every game and dictating every move, as has been alleged.


Just some of them? It's pretty clear from the provided chats that he certainly left strategy advice in games that he wasn't a player in, even after he was no longer legitimately sitting for a player. What percentage of games would you say this occurred in?

Denise wrote:It's more a matter of revenge for being removed from the clan.


Chuuuuck's motivations are irrelevant to the facts he presented.

Denise wrote:I know this really has nothing to do with the report, but the inference is insulting to every member of TOFU, so I wanted to dispute it.


Perfectly justified! I have often felt obligated to do the same thing in previous situations.

Denise wrote:I'd like to ask that +1 posts and the gloating KORT posts, or any posts that don't contribute to the case, cease. I don't want this thread to be locked. I hope it can remain open so that those who would like to refute have that opportunity. It takes time to build a case, so it makes sense that it takes some time to defend it. If the community feels a need to rehash sentiments on either side, please open a GD thread for it.


So, you are asking KORT (in general) to be the better clan? To refrain from doing all the things that members of TOFU (in general) did previously? It's an awkward pill to swallow when there is such a wealth of remarks from CoF about how he despises and would never do all of the things that the game chats in the original post show him to regularly do.

I will speak for myself and say that I will try, and will limit my remarks to legitimate questions regarding the evidence and the account-sitting abuse presented.
Last edited by Foxglove on Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chariot of Fire[pending]es

Postby jefjef on Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:16 am

1. Why did you so consistently and deliberately refuse to post in (public) game chat when taking a turn for others?


There is not a rule requiring a turn sitting announcement. I used to announce myself but only rarely do I now a days. (unless I'm smack talking then I make sure they know who the hell it is) O:)
This post was made by jefjef who should be on your ignore list.
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Re: Chariot of Fire[pending]es

Postby Chariot of Fire on Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:18 am

I'm not offering an explanation or defence for it - that's my whole point. Read my post again and you will see that, other than the majority of games in which I simply covered for an absent player or a clock low on time, I purposefully played the turns of others in a few games (yet did so with reason). There's no obligation to post in chat - that much has been ascertained in other cases - but I'm not denying that I played others' turns unnecessarily. The only mitigating circumstances are that my team were not seeking an advantage in my so doing.

Now Foxglove - at what point in Game 11327526 were you and/or josko going to post in chat that you were both covering for a player (Astoriana) who was perfectly capable of taking his own turn within the 24 hours? In an unlimited forts game on such a huge map it is quite obvious that there is a huge advantage to allowing the game creator (and champion) play other people's turns - especially the first turn. And not for the first time I've witnessed this, yet chosen to remain silent about it.

Re what is personal and what is not. Well excuse me if I post a PM that was penned by my own hand. I think the question of what is personal and what is not was breached a long time ago by the abuse of trust and confidentiality that should exist in any dialogue in a private conversation between people. Now re-read the OP.
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Re: Chariot of Fire[pending]es

Postby Foxglove on Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:20 am

jefjef wrote:
1. Why did you so consistently and deliberately refuse to post in (public) game chat when taking a turn for others?


There is not a rule requiring a turn sitting announcement. I used to announce myself but only rarely do I now a days. (unless I'm smack talking then I make sure they know who the hell it is) O:)


I think it's relevant because CoF has previously made comments about how important it is, and how sneaky and deceptive it would be for a person to neglect to do so.
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Re: Chariot of Fire[pending]es

Postby Night Strike on Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:24 am

Chariot of Fire wrote: Reliability issues (missed turns, etc) became a constant source of frustration and it became necessary to be more vigilant about his turn-taking and provide cover if necessary. Game 10716308 is the earliest example in his allegations - a case where he had been about to miss in another game and this one had under 7 hours on the clock. Whilst it may have been approaching morning his time, it was approaching bed time for me. Do I leave it and let the turn get missed? What do others do in cases like this? Hope the player turns up?


This right here is the completely FALSE mentality that gives rise to all of these stupid clan-sitting cases and blatant rule violations. You do NOT have the right to have someone else's password 24/7 in case they MIGHT miss a turn. Account sitting is supposed to only be used when people know ahead of time that they will be away from the computer and can change their password to a temporary one for the duration of the account sitting. Jumping into everybody's turns simply because they might miss is utterly ridiculous. A missed turn is literally not the end of the world. If you lose a game or clan war because of it, then so be it. Breaking the rules to have someone jump on your account anytime they want is not worth it. If Chuck was missing too many turns and becoming a liability in the clan war, then why did you keep putting him in those games? You deal with the problem when the next set of games become available, not when you have their password and can log in any time you feel like it. It's that mentality that every single game must be won at all costs (including breaking the rules) that has caused so many people to make clan wars completely intolerable to everybody else who doesn't adhere to that fundamentally flawed philosophy.
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Re: Chariot of Fire[pending]es

Postby Dibbun on Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:27 am

Night Strike wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote: Reliability issues (missed turns, etc) became a constant source of frustration and it became necessary to be more vigilant about his turn-taking and provide cover if necessary. Game 10716308 is the earliest example in his allegations - a case where he had been about to miss in another game and this one had under 7 hours on the clock. Whilst it may have been approaching morning his time, it was approaching bed time for me. Do I leave it and let the turn get missed? What do others do in cases like this? Hope the player turns up?


This right here is the completely FALSE mentality that gives rise to all of these stupid clan-sitting cases and blatant rule violations. You do NOT have the right to have someone else's password 24/7 in case they MIGHT miss a turn. Account sitting is supposed to only be used when people know ahead of time that they will be away from the computer and can change their password to a temporary one for the duration of the account sitting. Jumping into everybody's turns simply because they might miss is utterly ridiculous. A missed turn is literally not the end of the world. If you lose a game or clan war because of it, then so be it. Breaking the rules to have someone jump on your account anytime they want is not worth it. If Chuck was missing too many turns and becoming a liability in the clan war, then why did you keep putting him in those games? You deal with the problem when the next set of games become available, not when you have their password and can log in any time you feel like it. It's that mentality that every single game must be won at all costs (including breaking the rules) that has caused so many people to make clan wars completely intolerable to everybody else who doesn't adhere to that fundamentally flawed philosophy.


Related to this point is CoF taking turns because someone was low on time in another turn, which is profoundly scandalous. I think the whole clan is dishonorable to be honest and I'd like to see a sweeping punishment because this cheating was pandemic and not limited to one or even a few games, but rather ingrained into the TOFU culture.
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Re: Chariot of Fire[pending]es

Postby pmchugh on Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:39 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:...but I'm not denying that I played others' turns unnecessarily. The only mitigating circumstances are that my team were not seeking an advantage in my so doing.


Of course they were getting an advantage! If all of you were taking turns (even without chuuck) then it would be much more difficult for you to play as a team, and to win. 4 people trying to coordinate a hive quads is a lot more difficult than one guy taking all the turns, how you can say this does not give your team an advantage is beyond me.
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Re: Chariot of Fire[pending]es

Postby Chuuuuck on Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:45 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:Reliability issues (missed turns, etc) became a constant source of frustration and it became necessary to be more vigilant about his turn-taking and provide cover if necessary. Game 10716308 is the earliest example in his allegations - a case where he had been about to miss in another game and this one had under 7 hours on the clock. Whilst it may have been approaching morning his time, it was approaching bed time for me. Do I leave it and let the turn get missed? What do others do in cases like this? Hope the player turns up?


And here is Chariot of Fire's exact quote from last year when belittling KoRT for doing the same thing.

Chariot of Fire wrote:
"Hi gonzo, are you around? I am going sleep so prefer sit for you if you don't reply"



So what's the deal here? If I'm going to bed can I go and sit all my clanmates' turns before I retire?

....

The facility to sit for another is a privilege - it's not a right and it is not there to be abused to gain an unfair advantage which has clearly been the case in KORT clan games for the past nine months at least.



It seems last year, he was saying others weren't allowed to go around and cover turns before going to bed, but this year it seems okay as long as it is him and his clan.
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