Secret Diplomacy Possible multis? [cleared] BG

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Re: Secret Diplomacy Possible multis? [pending] BG

Postby afroaction on Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:09 pm

Frox333 wrote:so what, i have like 10 friends on this site that i know and play with. is this suddenly against the rules?



Ya it is buddy, you can't have 3 friends playing and one UN-suspecting join the 4th player, in a 4 man game. That's smells like secret-diplomacy, and dirty play. Glad you admitted it Frox333, working on a report on you as we speak.

Play with your friends all you want, but you can't farm someone into your game.
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Re: Secret Diplomacy Possible multis? [pending] BG

Postby BGtheBrain on Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:53 am

tez hodos, kuma32478 & rjhankey have been cleared of being multis and cleared of secret diplomacy.
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Re: Secret Diplomacy Possible multis? [pending] BG

Postby afroaction on Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:20 am

BGtheBrain wrote:tez hodos, kuma32478 & rjhankey have been cleared of being multis and cleared of secret diplomacy.



Fine they may not be multis, but how in the heck can they be cleared of secret diplomacy when they have 142 standard 3 or 4 man games when 95% are won by either of them?

That's mathematically impossible without point-dumping, double or triple teaming someone. With That many games it comes to a point, nothing has to be said, they are so accustomed in playing each other, they just do what they have to do.

BG, seriously re-think your verdict and what basis have you decided that no secret-diplomacy is not going on?

It's pretty clear to everyone else! :roll:
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Re: Secret Diplomacy Possible multis? [cleared] BG

Postby afroaction on Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:23 am

Rule #2: No secret diplomacy

Any form of diplomatic discussion between opponents must be posted in the game chat in English or in a language that all opponents understand. Diplomacy includes, but is not limited to: proposing truces, negotiating alliances, and coordinating assaults. Secret diplomacy can be hard to prove, but if you suspect it you should leave the players in question appropriate ratings. If you feel certain about players engaging in secret diplomacy consider reporting them in the Cheating & Abuse Reports forum by posting a new topic.


Unwritten Rules

Obviously any gross abuse of the game is forbidden. This includes but is not limited to: throwing games or deliberately benefiting from thrown games, intentional deadbeating, holding players hostage, serial teammate killing, hijacking accounts, systematically "farming" new recruits.
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Re: Secret Diplomacy Possible multis? [cleared] BG

Postby BGtheBrain on Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:28 am

Can you show me specific examples where secret diplomacy is occurring?
Simply telling me someone wins too much, is not enough evidence to warn someone for secret diplomacy.
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Re: Secret Diplomacy Possible multis? [cleared] BG

Postby afroaction on Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:37 am

BGtheBrain wrote:Can you show me specific examples where secret diplomacy is occurring?
Simply telling me someone wins too much, is not enough evidence to warn someone for secret diplomacy.


Ok i will, give me some time, I'll show you some more evidence.
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Re: Secret Diplomacy Possible multis? [pending] BG

Postby BGtheBrain on Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:39 am

Fair enough
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Re: Secret Diplomacy Possible multis? [cleared] BG

Postby agentcom on Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:29 pm

BGtheBrain wrote:Can you show me specific examples where secret diplomacy is occurring?
Simply telling me someone wins too much, is not enough evidence to warn someone for secret diplomacy.


I think this is wrong. If 3 players, play 100 4 player games and win 95% of them, that is prima facie evidence of collusion. Whether they are consciously cooperating with eachother or not, statistically that just shouldn't happen.
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Re: Secret Diplomacy Possible multis? [cleared] BG

Postby chapcrap on Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:39 pm

agentcom wrote:
BGtheBrain wrote:Can you show me specific examples where secret diplomacy is occurring?
Simply telling me someone wins too much, is not enough evidence to warn someone for secret diplomacy.


I think this is wrong. If 3 players, play 100 4 player games and win 95% of them, that is prima facie evidence of collusion. Whether they are consciously cooperating with eachother or not, statistically that just shouldn't happen.

I would agree with agentcom, but if you look at the games in his snapshots, most of them are 3 player games with the 3 of them. And until afro actually does the math on the 4 player games, you can't really trust his guestimates.
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Re: Secret Diplomacy Possible multis? [pending] BG

Postby chapcrap on Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:47 pm

Just looked and they have played a total of 16 four player games together. I think trying to use 143 as the number is a little misleading, isn't it afro? That's good for a total of 0.25% of their games.

Of the 16, they have won 8, fourth player has won 2 and 6 are ongoing. And of the ongoing ones, one of them has been eliminated in 2 of them. Those percentages don't really play to secret diplomacy.
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Re: Secret Diplomacy Possible multis? [cleared] BG

Postby hmsps on Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:04 pm

BGtheBrain wrote:Can you show me specific examples where secret diplomacy is occurring?
Simply telling me someone wins too much, is not enough evidence to warn someone for secret diplomacy.
Come on its not difficult, players in the past have been blocked for playing games like this, they should either have private games for themselves, play team games together or be blocked from doing this in the future. I appreciate you are relatively new but does this really need spelling out. They might not be multis, obviously are friends, they should not be playing games like this together. Even if they lose the odd game, the temptation is just too much.
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Re: Secret Diplomacy Possible multis? [pending] BG

Postby afroaction on Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:43 pm

tez hodos
kuma32478
rjhankey
Here are the stats i found for the completed games as Aug/23/12

4 man Standard games: tez hodos/kuma32478/ rjhankey 12 results

tez hodos: 6 wins = 50%

kuma32478: 2 wins= 16%

rjhankey: 1 win= 8%

Combined wins= 74% Others: 3 wins= 25%

3 man games: tez hodos/ kuma32478/ rjhankey 24 results

tez hodos: 13 wins= 54%

kuma32478: 3 wins= 12%

rjhankey: 8 wins= 33%

Combined wins=100% Others: 0 wins = 0%

Standard Games: tez hodos/ kuma32478 88 results (7 results of 88 for 5 or more players)

kuma32478: 13 wins= 15%

tez hodos: 38 wins= 43%

(+/- rjhankey 3 wins= 4%)

Combined wins= 62% Others: 38%


Standard: rjhankey/ tez hodos 32 results (1 result of 32 for 5 or more players)

tez hodos: 17 wins= 53%

rjhankey: 6 wins= 19%

(+/-kuma32478 3 wins= 9%)

Combined wins= 81% Others= 19%


If I had those kind of odds, I'd be on the first plane to Vegas!!!!! :lol: Anyways, it's late i'll finish this up tomorow.
Last edited by afroaction on Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Secret Diplomacy Possible multis? [pending] BG

Postby nicestash on Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:53 pm

Frox333 wrote:so what, i have like 10 friends on this site that i know and play with. is this suddenly against the rules?

It's not, but if you played a 4 player game with 2 of your friends and teamed up on the stranger before playing amongst each other it would be cheating.

However, it appears the 4th player wins 25% of the time, so that doesn't look like cheating to me...
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Re: Secret Diplomacy Possible multis? [pending] BG

Postby afroaction on Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:11 pm

nicestash wrote:However, it appears the 4th player wins 25% of the time, so that doesn't look like cheating to me...


sorry but i have to dis-agree. If there wasn't any collusion between the 3 players, they would all have all equal or par win ratios, not 75% to 25% for the 4th like it is.That's an UN-realistic bell-curve.
Last edited by afroaction on Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Secret Diplomacy Possible multis? [pending] BG

Postby BGtheBrain on Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:17 pm

I need something like specific games that show them behaving as though they have an alliance.

The statistics are intriguing but I can't bust people for secret diplomacy just because someone wins too much.
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Re: Secret Diplomacy Possible multis? [pending] BG

Postby king achilles on Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:39 pm

If win-lose statistics will be a basis for blocking players, then there should be a rule or a code to prevent people from playing a certain number of games together then. So if player A and player B are always playing games together with other people and if one or both of them gets a good percentage of winning, then does that mean they are cheating? If they have been losing a lot from them, then that is fine? So in order for them not to be suspected of cheating, they need to lose. Or is it just for the mere fact that 2 or more players play a lot together, it automatically means there is some cheating going on.

Like what BGB said, we need specific games that show them behaving as though they have a secret alliance.
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Re: Secret Diplomacy Possible multis? [pending] BG

Postby afroaction on Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:41 pm

BGtheBrain wrote:I need something like specific games that show them behaving as though they have an alliance.

The statistics are intriguing but I can't bust people for secret diplomacy just because someone wins too much.


right, like I said it's late and I'll finish this tomorrow with game chat, games and them behaving with a secret alliance, the stats are there to show you the pattern of that if they didn't have a secret alliance the win ratio would way lower.

I really don't care that they are friends, and want to play together, but they should not be allowed to create games or join games and have a 3rd or 4th player... join it and get slaughtered and have no chance of winning.It's not fair for the other players and ruins the game for everyone.


I realize you're New BG, and with time, people won't have to spell out so much of what's going on, all i did was a game finder check to find those stats and knew that they were in Ka-hoots!
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Re: Secret Diplomacy Possible multis? [pending] BG

Postby kuma32478 on Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:11 am

I wasn't going to give Afroaction the time of day, but figured I'd at least pipe up since he appears to hold the biggest grudge for a loss that I've ever seen.

rjhankey and I were in the LOTZ clan together. We play a lot of games together. We've even run a tournament together. When I first started playing Conquer Club, I play private games with some friends from church, Tez being one of them. In the beginning it was me, him, and another friend from church berg3family. We got setup with a 4th, spongejoe and just set out playing four player games together. Berg quite CC and spongejoe fell off the face of the earth. At that point, I joined a clan, and began playing three man games with Tez and RJ. Three man just aren't as fun, so we posted in our clan forum that we were looking for a fourth person who was addicted to taking turns during the work day as we were. Looking back at some of our three man games, you'll see a lot of turns quickly. No one could give it the same amount of time as we were so we set up random games and just let a fourth person join in hopes of getting a good 4th person.

The closest we've found is seambot so we invited him to a 2nd game with us.

Note game # 11516882, where I went to setup the random settings and found someone already with a game waiting on those. We joined that game.

The game that Afro was upset, I attacked a large stack of his, and he got all up in arms and tossed a curse word at me. I find it funny when people don't play exactly like your style that you get upset. If you don't like me or the way I play, foe me and never play with me again, but don't drag my name through the mud. That's bush league, dude.
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Re: Secret Diplomacy Possible multis? [pending] BG

Postby rjhankey on Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:51 am

Exactly -- Kuma, Tez, and I haven't been farming anyone, in fact we could in theory move to a 5- or 6- player format where it would increase the likelihood that the statistics wouldn't even be close to insinuating that we're somehow ganging up on other players. The whole point though has been to play fast 4-player games, and as Kuma mentioned we don't have a regular 4th to include, so have just been leaving a spot open for someone to join us. Look a little deeper at the statistics, we don't jump all over the 4th player, and knock him/her out first, if you look at the strategy in our games, I'm sure the pattern would show that normal game strategies are applied, attacking the troop/terit leader first, eliminating the player who's weakest with the most spoils, etc.

Game 11516882 -- a very even battle so far where most of the attention has been on tez (yellow) who established an early bonus

Game 11364891 -- round 91, ask DTT if he feels like we're ganging up ... this one is a close battle too, where he (yellow) has the advantage at the moment, and potentially a large stack lurking out there.

Game 11180759 -- game won by the "4th" player, who collected 76 points ... seemed to enjoy the game with us too, and we could have prevented the loss if we truly were working together as a team of three.

Game 11127054 -- round 107!!?? Surely the three of us could have knocked off the 4th player here by now?

Game 11081553 -- most interesting game chat of them all, we came out and let the 4th player know that we know each other, and yet it still looks like a clean game was played where he was interested in playing with us again.

Oh, and then there's a whole series of 3-player games where we only played against each other. These should in no way be considered part of the statistical analysis, they're a whole different type of game.

Is afroaction suggesting we need to post a disclaimer in all of our games ... something along the lines that the three of us know each other, and we are in no way acting in collusion to knock off whoever joins our games? Kuma, Tez, and I could be a formidable force if we set up trips games and just camped out waiting for unsuspecting trips teams (or random singles) to join those games. I'm sure there are plenty of other dubs/trips/quads who do exactly that -- they've played countless games together and will win a majority of their games played. For that matter, that's exactly how clan wars work, the same teams will undoubtedly play many many many games with each other, and you could probably build a statistical case that looks like they win "more often" than they otherwise should.

As I said, if it helps, we could add a 5th or 6th random player, and see if that slows down our gameplay. 4-player games have a tendency to move pretty quick when we know at least 3 of us tend to take turns fairly regularly and often. Just check out the games listed above that have gone more than 90 rounds, mainly due to that fast play.
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Re: Secret Diplomacy Possible multis? [pending] BG

Postby rjhankey on Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:47 am

Sorry, going to weigh in again, as the statistical analysis was leaving me thinking a little harder ...

afroaction wrote:4 man Standard games: tez hodos/kuma32478/ rjhankey 12 results

tez hodos: 6 wins = 50%

kuma32478: 2 wins= 16%

rjhankey: 1 win= 8%

Combined wins= 74% Others: 3 wins= 25%


Isn't this about right for 4-player games? The 4th player wins 1/4 of the time? And, with such a small sample set of 12 games, I'm surprised the stats did work out this well. Admittedly, I must not be a very good player, and Tez/Kuma could appear to be farming me, since I'm not winning my fair share of the games. I bet if you give this time to play out to 100 games or so, you'd find that 4th player would be winning 25% or so of the games. I'm not sure if Tez would continue his hot streak of winning more frequently than the rest of us, but I'm guessing even that would balance out.

afroaction wrote:3 man games: tez hodos/ kuma32478/ rjhankey 24 results

tez hodos: 13 wins= 54%

kuma32478: 3 wins= 12%

rjhankey: 8 wins= 33%

Combined wins=100% Others: 0 wins = 0%


What does this prove? That when the three of us play together, one of us wins the game? This even supports my prior statement on the 4-player analysis, Tez had already established himself as winning a majority of our games, something Kuma and I were trying to change by winning a few ourselves.

afroaction wrote:Standard Games: tez hodos/ kuma32478 88 results (7 results of 88 for 5 or more players)

kuma32478: 13 wins= 15%

tez hodos: 38 wins= 43%

(+/- rjhankey 3 wins= 4%)

Combined wins= 62% Others: 38%


Standard: rjhankey/ tez hodos 32 results (1 result of 32 for 5 or more players)

tez hodos: 17 wins= 53%

rjhankey: 6 wins= 19%

(+/-kuma32478 3 wins= 9%)

Combined wins= 81% Others= 19%


I'm not sure what this proves -- the three of us weren't working together obviously in these games, and this still supports prior observation that Tez is good enough to win a large number of games, he must be doing something right in the strategy department. I think the only thing that we could do differently to avoid this misunderstanding is announce first thing in the game chat that the three of us know each other, we do play fair games, we like playing turns in much less than 24 hours, and we're in no way looking for players who we can just take points from. Wouldn't it be better if we made sure we played only games against players ranked higher than us as well if we were just looking for points?
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Re: Secret Diplomacy Possible multis? [pending] BG

Postby tez hodos on Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:01 am

I'll speak up too. Thanks to BG, Froxx and others who are using reason. I'm sorry I ever entered a game with Afro. I believe a sampling of his rating comments and game logs show what kind of player he is (like Game 11523167). I'm not sure if you've ever taken a statistics class, but one player in a four player game winning 25% is... exactly fair, and what one would expect. Yes, I know kuma, and have played with rj for a few months now. I don't want them to win any more than I want the fourth (or 5th or 6th) guy to win. Conquer Club is my only contact with them during the week, and there is no collusion. RJ already posted some good examples of our logs, and strategies. I don't know how games over 100 rounds help our "alliance."
"attacking the troop/terit leader first, eliminating the player who's weakest with the most spoils, etc.
- exactly my tact. Thanks for posting the stats afro. I knew I was taking rj and kuma to the cleaners but I never checked the stats.

I'm not sure what you expected when you joined a game that had two reserved spots, and one open. I thought it was quite a good and fair game. I'm also not sure what you're upset about. Since it was a fog game, I had no idea what sort of stack kuma took from you. I attacked you because you had broken my territory bonus earlier, and I wanted it back.

As for speech,
Harassing

Banter and some trash talking IS allowed in the Game Chats, provided it doesn't cross some specific lines.
While you might find some game chat disagreeable, uncouth, and boorish, cursing and using foul language may not be a breach of our Guidelines. Try kindly asking them to stop or ignoring them using your Foes List.
That said, what is not allowed is any form of bigotry, cyber-bullying/harassment or those extremes outlined in the Forum Guidelines. Please report any such comments that you find offensive.


I'd ask you, afroaction, not to curse at or to me again, and not to harrass me or my friends...or anyone for that matter.

If moderators deem fit, we can post a message at beginnings of games saying we have played games together before (gasp), and that Tez is an awesome strategist. We could tweek that a bit if need be.
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Re: Secret Diplomacy Possible multis? [pending] BG

Postby kuma32478 on Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:41 am

Also really enjoyed the responses in Afro's ratings page when someone doesn't give the rating he likes. Stay classy bro. Don't ever change
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Re: Secret Diplomacy Possible multis? [pending] BG

Postby Chewie1 on Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:33 pm

Lol guys nothing like fuelling the fire by all posting one after another in the space of 3 hours. :o

Long enough apart to not think you are logging of and then on but short enough to look a little suspicious. ;)
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Re: Secret Diplomacy Possible multis? [pending] BG

Postby kuma32478 on Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:47 pm

Chewie1 wrote:Lol guys nothing like fuelling the fire by all posting one after another in the space of 3 hours. :o

Long enough apart to not think you are logging of and then on but short enough to look a little suspicious. ;)


Probably has something to do with the fact that I sent a PM to them making them aware of the thread. See, unlike Afroman, I actually spend my time on CC playing games and doing things that better the community, like running tournaments and forming a clan. I try not to get bogged down with being obnoxious.
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Re: Secret Diplomacy Possible multis? [pending] BG

Postby BGtheBrain on Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:49 pm

Theyre definately not multis.

The only reason this is still open is that AfroAction said he would provide evidence.

Lets not resort to insults and name calling, or the thread will be locked.
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