josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Chewie1 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:48 pm

Interesting how these C&A reports more often than not come about with the big high flying clans looking for ways to point score of each other/ or penalise each other.

Sorry its off topic but couldnt help making the observation.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Denise on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:22 pm

Josko did not break the rules. I’m glad to hear it because I think Josko is a great player and I was afraid if he was found guilty he would leave the game for good. I don’t want to see that happen. He raises the bar for all of us.

Josko, I understand what you are saying about how you are trying to play fair by not contributing to more games than you should. I think though that this is mostly a show (not genuine). The reason I think that is it doesn’t really matter that you are not entered into your max games or not, because you have gained too much control over your unlimited games. That is your forte and how you win challenges for your clan. Whether it’s strictly against the rules or not, you are playing the very important turns for other players in a very time consuming game, in which doing so gains you an advantage. So you see, all this debate about what’s fair and bringing up past history and justification doesn’t really mean anything to those who will look at the situation with perspective and some common sense.

The only good thing that can come of this report is that the practice stops. There is no good reason to enter a player in a clan game, if that player cannot take most of his turns. Unexpected absences are one thing, but this is not that. I think the responsibility for that belongs to whoever is deciding teams and inviting players to their games, mostly. They should know better, especially if they happen to be a CD.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby ad10r3tr0 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:26 pm

C'mon, lets be real here. This whole account sitting issue is getting way out of hand! I don't even have anymore interest in playing in clan games..I mean this is ridiculous. You don't know who you are playing against, its like 1 guy is taking every single fucking turn..

Why not just ban account sitting all together? You can't make it here in a 24 hour period, then you miss your turn it's as simple as that. You don't have internet on the weekends, then go find an internet cafe, or some shit.. I mean, what a joke the clan scene has become with this stupid account sitting. Its ridiculous!

And come on, how hard is it to lie to have your best player take your turn because it is a vital one? Hey guys, I cant play on Wednesday, Thursdays or Sundays. So i need someone to sit my account for those days, k? thanks!

you get the point?? You either take the turn in 24 hours or you dont! get rid of this overusused, abused system that is called "account sitting"
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Funkyterrance on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:37 pm

I think what metsfanmax was pointing out is that there seems to be a discrepancy between this ruling and a previous one or at least no weight given to the fact that this is not the first time this has come up. Furthermore, king achilles expressed that it was not something that should become a long term pattern yet it appears that Moonchild will continue to miss turns indefinitely on weekends and josko will continue to sit in. The whole thing just doesn't jel.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Foxglove on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:51 pm

Denise wrote:Josko did not break the rules. I’m glad to hear it because I think Josko is a great player and I was afraid if he was found guilty he would leave the game for good. I don’t want to see that happen. He raises the bar for all of us.

Josko, I understand what you are saying about how you are trying to play fair by not contributing to more games than you should. I think though that this is mostly a show (not genuine).


It is, though, very genuine. We are aware that some CC players take any and every possible chance to accuse josko of breaking the rules, and josko responds to this by being completely open and honest about his turn-sitting. He always announces when he sits for another player. He never conspires to hide the turns that he sits in any way (flag switching, team chat only notifications, etc.).

Denise wrote: Whether it’s strictly against the rules or not, you are playing the very important turns for other players in a very time consuming game, in which doing so gains you an advantage.


This report accused josko of taking turns for moonchild as a regular pattern on the weekends. Important turns take place every day of the week. Additionally, we have no control over which player gets the starting turn when a game is initialized, and hence which players will have their first turns take place on a specific day of the week - it's random.

Denise wrote: So you see, all this debate about what’s fair and bringing up past history and justification doesn’t really mean anything to those who will look at the situation with perspective and some common sense.


I believe that what is fair or not fair is incredibly important. Honesty is equally important.

Denise wrote:There is no good reason to enter a player in a clan game, if that player cannot take most of his turns.


Agreed. In this case though, Moonchild *does* take most of his turns. What percentage of a player's turns should a sitter be allowed to take? This is a good example of why the site desperately needs a sitting feature to track those sort of stats. They could be used by the C&A team to make decisions, and by clans, as well, to determine acceptable maximums for clan wars.

I have no idea what the current status of a site-wide account sitting feature is, but it could be beneficial to implement in stages, with a first stage simply being a tracking and notification system. Numbers and information gathered from this system could then be analyzed to determine site rules to make it easy to figure out exactly where the lines are.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Nicky15 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:06 pm

Hello there everyone. The CDs have been addressing all of these issues over the past few months (not just this one) and until we get a sitting feature, we will have to rely on a new set of rules that we are in the process of finalizing. We will post them over the next few days.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Chewie1 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:14 pm

ad10r3tr0 wrote:C'mon, lets be real here. This whole account sitting issue is getting way out of hand! I don't even have anymore interest in playing in clan games..I mean this is ridiculous. You don't know who you are playing against, its like 1 guy is taking every single fucking turn..

Why not just ban account sitting all together? You can't make it here in a 24 hour period, then you miss your turn it's as simple as that. You don't have internet on the weekends, then go find an internet cafe, or some shit.. I mean, what a joke the clan scene has become with this stupid account sitting. Its ridiculous!

And come on, how hard is it to lie to have your best player take your turn because it is a vital one? Hey guys, I cant play on Wednesday, Thursdays or Sundays. So i need someone to sit my account for those days, k? thanks!

you get the point?? You either take the turn in 24 hours or you dont! get rid of this overusused, abused system that is called "account sitting"



Dont be an ass.. account sitting is great if used correctly why should the minority spoil it for the majority.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby eddie2 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:16 pm

deathcomesrippin wrote:As for sitting, like we said, as long as it is announced and made clear that this would happen, and the sitter didn't break any of the Account Sitting rules (Forum Posting, joining/starting new games, playing as an opponent of the person you are sitting for) then this would be ok.


I think think dcr you are getting muddled up with the sitting rules for clan games, when masli was head clan mod he put a vote within the cla, this rule was to clarify what sitting rules clans were going to follow with the following 2 options..

1) follow site rules as quoted above..

2) follow tournament rules

the final result was to follow tournament rules... but there was no modification to these rules because it was around the time masli stood down as moderator.

So the problem i see is that in tournaments it is ok to sign a player up to games and play all his shots in them games to stop the delaying of any rounds matchs... in other words when a player posts in there challenge thread in private forums that they are going to take part in it then they are allowed to have a sitter sign up and play a full match for them if they are away and carry on indefinite until the war is over . also like in this case if they are not present at weekends then this is ok....

I do really hope that after another sitting case involving clan areas that clan mods with or without the help of the cla (this part meaning if they want input from clan leaders.) all start a thread and discuss a proper set of rules for sitting in clan challenges and post a public thread in the clan pages saying what is and what is not allowed.. this will stop any confusion, also if this is accepted as needing to be done the 2 previous cases of josko and cof are rescinded as these were both after the vote in the cla to allow tourney sitting rules.
Last edited by eddie2 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:23 pm

deathcomesrippin wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:But the admins have done something about it in the past:

viewtopic.php?f=239&t=145859&start=255#p3229429

king achilles wrote:For this case, at some point, josko.ri could/should have simply told the other players to stop relying on him to take turns for them. Account sitting is for a definite period of time and NOT for an indefinite period. You can't assign an account sitter to account sit for you for as long as his blood is running into his veins. Then you can now sleep soundly whenever or do other stuff because you know he is going to save you from missing a turn. If you are capable of taking your turn, then take it. Do not make someone be responsible for your own account or lean too much for his advise.


Here, ka is quite clearly saying that indefinitely sharing a password to take turns when needed, violates account sitting rules.


Very interesting. This seems grounds for reopening?


This case is of one person, who cannot play on weekends, every weekend and only weekends, having Josko cover for him. Again, this is within the rules. If Moonchild misses a turn during the week, but Josko jumped in, then that would be different. But he doesn't, Moonchild is just guaranteed to miss all of his turns on weekends. During the week- Moonchild. On weekends- Josko. It hasn't crossed over, and if it would have then it would be a different outcome. The player is declared, the player returns, that's it. Josko did not jump in when he saw Moonchild was approaching a missed turn, he announced it in chat to make sure everyone knew he was sitting in, Josko broke no rules.

Where would you all like the line to be drawn? There is no number we could come to that would be in any way shape or form fair, and if we removed account sitting completely, then the moment someone else logged into your account and we found out about it, it would be an infraction. According to the rules in place now, there was no rule broken.


Look, I don't claim to have a good answer for where the line should be drawn; I haven't thought about it that much. But ka says quite clearly that account sitting for an indefinite period of time is not acceptable, and that's exactly what we have here; josko plays turns for Moonchild every single weekend. That is account sharing at that point, because josko is now basically an equal partner in the goal of managing Moonchild's games, instead of someone who just sits in from time to time when Moonchild can't get to the computer. There is no question in my mind that wherever the line currently is, this steps over it. Now, ka's post is really kind of ambivalent about this matter, and as a result these things continue to happen because no one is taking a firm stance on the matter. This sort of thing will continue to happen as long as the C&A staff throw up their hands and say "we can't find a good line to draw." It's better to have a line that is arguable than to make the mistake of having no line at all.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Funkyterrance on Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:30 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:

But ka says quite clearly that account sitting for an indefinite period of time is not acceptable, and that's exactly what we have here; josko plays turns for Moonchild every single weekend. That is account sharing at that point, because josko is now basically an equal partner in the goal of managing Moonchild's games, instead of someone who just sits in from time to time when Moonchild can't get to the computer. There is no question in my mind that wherever the line currently is, this steps over it.


Put in this way I have to agree ; this is account sharing. Two people are undoubtedly playing the same account. One person plays on the weekdays, the other on the weekends. It actually doesn't get much more clear cut than that when put in this light. Thanks for providing this more "clear" way of viewing the situation ; I couldn't put my finger on what bothered me so much about it but there you have it.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby deathcomesrippin on Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:49 pm

A line was drawn. He didn't break a rule. Just because we didn't rule in your favor doesn't mean that we did nothing. Whenever a "big" case or a complicated case comes through us, we all discuss it, the entire department. This is a ruling we discussed, examined each of our opinions, and came to a consensus. Contrary to everyones belief, we don't just look at a case and say "Damn, this is too complicated, screw it." and walk away. I know this won't change any opinions on us but it is the truth regardless.

I am going to leave this open for a handful more hours, and then lock this up and put it away. I always appreciate feedback even if it frustrates me, and I thank everyone for their input. If one wishes to attempt to re-open the case he can do so by following the instructions at the top. Here is a link to opening a ticket:
http://www.conquerclub.com/eticket/index.php#openticket

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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:00 pm

deathcomesrippin wrote:A line was drawn. He didn't break a rule. Just because we didn't rule in your favor doesn't mean that we did nothing. Whenever a "big" case or a complicated case comes through us, we all discuss it, the entire department. This is a ruling we discussed, examined each of our opinions, and came to a consensus. Contrary to everyones belief, we don't just look at a case and say "Damn, this is too complicated, screw it." and walk away. I know this won't change any opinions on us but it is the truth regardless.


I don't think anyone is accusing you of doing nothing. I am pointing out that the line that was drawn, in king achilles' post, was clearly crossed. You have not suggested an alternate line; you have simply said, in effect, that account sharing is acceptable as long as it is openly announced to the community.

deathcomesrippin wrote:One could easily assume this could be deliberate or another form of account sharing. For Josko and Moonchild to come out not suspicious or if any other players would be in the same situation as this, the right thing to do is to openly announce it as your signature or state it on your profile wall, and must be mentioned in all your games.


This ruling essentially nullifies the rule against account sharing, even if it was not intended. Again, I am not accusing you of not having thought about it. I am saying that you came to a conclusion that is in sharp contradiction to an established principle of the site, and it muddies the waters instead of clearing them up.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Foxglove on Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:01 pm

deathcomesrippin wrote:A line was drawn. He didn't break a rule. Just because we didn't rule in your favor doesn't mean that we did nothing. Whenever a "big" case or a complicated case comes through us, we all discuss it, the entire department. This is a ruling we discussed, examined each of our opinions, and came to a consensus. Contrary to everyones belief, we don't just look at a case and say "Damn, this is too complicated, screw it." and walk away. I know this won't change any opinions on us but it is the truth regardless.

I am going to leave this open for a handful more hours, and then lock this up and put it away. I always appreciate feedback even if it frustrates me, and I thank everyone for their input. If one wishes to attempt to re-open the case he can do so by following the instructions at the top. Here is a link to opening a ticket:
http://www.conquerclub.com/eticket/index.php#openticket

Thank you.


Thank you for being transparent about the process with this reasonable explanation!!
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Dako on Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:34 pm

The ruling from KA that metsfanmax has brought does indeed raise questions.

Is every weekend a definite period of time (2 days, quite definite) or is it not (every weekend for many months - quite indefinite)? Is it ok if different players play weekend games for me and rotate all the time? Ie player A for week 1, then player B for week 2, then player C for week 3 and then player A for week 4. Is three months too long to share the accounts or not? Is one day an "ok" amount of time for other player to sit continuously? Are two days? The list can go on and on.


I have a lot of questions and none of them are answered yet. Can C&A mods do that please? Because right now every C&A case has a verdict but each time they decide what is above board and what is below from scratch. I would like to see C&A to define numbers and periods for at least such important things as account sitting, farming/ranching, point dumping. Those 3 issues create most complicated cases of the C&A department and got to be clarified asap. That will help both community and the C&A department. It is even ok to choose wrong numbers, we can always alter them later. But living in this turmoil without any standards is getting harder and harder.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Ishihara on Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:16 pm

Agreed. In this case though, Moonchild *does* take most of his turns. What percentage of a player's turns should a sitter be allowed to take? This is a good example of why the site desperately needs a sitting feature to track those sort of stats. They could be used by the C&A team to make decisions, and by clans, as well, to determine acceptable maximums for clan wars.


I'm surprised someone hasn't done the math yet, but out of curiousity, exactly what percentage of the games did Moon take himself? IMHO, the anti-sitting hard liners are just plain being silly. One of the benefits of the clan life is that you can have a few friends cover your back - the benefits overall to the quality of the games on this site (from not having a missed turn) far, far outweigh the abuses of a few when they occur. And we do have a system in place to address problems when we think they are occurring (thanks again, C&A mods).
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