josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Chewie1 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:20 pm

Ishihara wrote:
One of the benefits of the clan life is that you can have a few friends cover your back - the benefits overall to the quality of the games on this site (from not having a missed turn) far, far outweigh the abuses of a few when they occur. And we do have a system in place to address problems when we think they are occurring (thanks again, C&A mods).




+1 =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:42 pm

Sitting is a necessary feature of the site as everyone at some stage or another has occasion to be away for more than 24 hours.

What is not a necessary feature of the site is to continue joining games in the knowledge you cannot take your own turns, yet this is exactly what is going on here and has been for three months already.

Metsfanmax brought up the pertinent ruling, in KA's own words:

"Account sitting is for a definite period of time and NOT for an indefinite period. You can't assign an account sitter to account sit for you for as long as his blood is running into his veins. Then you can now sleep soundly whenever or do other stuff because you know he is going to save you from missing a turn"

Three months so far seems pretty indefinite to me don't you think? With all the players available in that clan why do they insist on fielding a player whose turns have to be taken by another? And if you can't already see the advantage being gained from such an arrangement then you need only look at the stats again in the OP.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Eddy_26 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:11 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:Metsfanmax brought up the pertinent ruling, in KA's own words:

"Account sitting is for a definite period of time and NOT for an indefinite period. You can't assign an account sitter to account sit for you for as long as his blood is running into his veins. Then you can now sleep soundly whenever or do other stuff because you know he is going to save you from missing a turn"

Three months so far seems pretty indefinite to me don't you think? With all the players available in that clan why do they insist on fielding a player whose turns have to be taken by another? And if you can't already see the advantage being gained from such an arrangement then you need only look at the stats again in the OP.

Nice try, but you know it meant something different. Josko's sitting is not indefinite. it starts every Saturday, and ends every Sunday. That is a defined length of time.

Chariot of Fire wrote:and the real crux of the matter is that he is being entered into games that require a great deal of patience and knowledge on the part of the player (unlimited forts, first turn) and it's no coincidence that a majority of these moves have been taken by his sitter.


Denise wrote:you have gained too much control over your unlimited games. That is your forte and how you win challenges for your clan. Whether it’s strictly against the rules or not, you are playing the very important turns for other players in a very time consuming game, in which doing so gains you an advantage.


Do you guys play your first turn unlimited clan games on your own or something? I figured most teams do it together, or atleast with a teammate around. I was entered into an unlimited game for the cup. My first real competitive game with the setting. Soooo, why wasn't I sat for in the all important first turn? Obviously the biggest advantage to be gained was by sitting for me. And even more interesting, why was moon also discussing the turns?

Because that's just it, we actually discuss the turns. It's Josko's forte, but it's still a team game, and we play it as a team. Josko is actually one of the more involving players. You guys have assumed it's a dictatorship. It's clear what CoF's thinking was here, that since he'd covered turns in the past out of just wanting to do it himself (there's your dictatorship) that Josko shared the same practices.

I'm wondering, why did you enter Pedro into clan games when you consistently had to sit for him one night a week. For months. Oh, that's right! He didn't actually need sitting...
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:32 pm

It is indefinite Eddy - unless you can categorically state on which Sunday this practice is going to stop.

As for the remainder of your post it really bears no relevance as it's immaterial how you as a clan plan your strategy or collaborate on turns. What's pertinent is why a player is being entered into team games beyond the point where it was known he had no internet.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Eddy_26 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:57 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:It is indefinite Eddy - unless you can categorically state on which Sunday this practice is going to stop.

As for the remainder of your post it really bears no relevance as it's immaterial how you as a clan plan your strategy or collaborate on turns. What's pertinent is why a player is being entered into team games beyond the point where it was known he had no internet.

I believe the previous ruling took the same view I did. The problem was that people were just being sat for whenever it looked like they were going to miss, or something like that, where as this is something different.
As for you thinking the rest is irrelevent, your main problem is that we're apparently gaining some sort of advantage from this, and my post pointed out that that's not true. I suppose it is immaterial, as Josko was already cleared of that :D
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:30 pm

Yes, I do believe it is an unfair advantage for a player to enter 40% of his games in an unlimited forts setting and have the majority of his first turns played by one of the site's best exponents at this format. With a 100% record it's also rather difficult to refute that. Has it affected me personally? No. Will it if the practice is allowed to continue and TOFU face KORT in January? Yes. It seems unreasonable that a player is allowed to keep entering games which he cannot undertake to play himself.

If Moonchild plays 62% of the time and Josko plays 38% of the time week after week (month after month) on the same account, what better example of account sharing is there? And it's not a simple case of Josko taking Moonchild's spot in those games because he is already in them himself, thus in effect controlling two players on the same team.

Just making a declaration that you'll be sitting for someone and posting such in chat does not absolve you from the rights and wrongs - and what is so wrong here is that it is unnecessary and yet it continues.

A simple ruling that restricts Moonchild from entering team games until such time as he has internet access is all that is really required. I'd have thought that was a fairly obvious resolution from a site that requires a player to log in every 24 hours.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby josko.ri on Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:29 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:Yes, I do believe it is an unfair advantage for a player to enter 40% of his games in an unlimited forts setting and have the majority of his first turns played by one of the site's best exponents at this format. With a 100% record it's also rather difficult to refute that. Has it affected me personally? No. Will it if the practice is allowed to continue and TOFU face KORT in January? Yes. It seems unreasonable that a player is allowed to keep entering games which he cannot undertake to play himself.

as for the numbers, my winning % in unlimited is not 100%, it is about 80-85% (read page 2 for more accurate info).

About % of turns sit by Moonchild (also related to Ishihara's post who asked that):
I have counted all games together that we played from end of September until 30th Nov, the day of counting data, used R3 of CL3 like starting point.

here are results:
25 games played together
0 sitting 1 game (just 3 rounds played)
1 sitting 7 games
2 sitting 11 games
3 sitting 4 games
4 sitting 1 game (of 13 rounds)
5 sitting 1 game (of 17 round)

% hours per week when Moonchild is absent (64/168 hours) 38,1%
% turns sat by me in all those games together (50/174) 28,7%
% hours per week that sitting need to be done in IDEAL situation, assuming that Moonchild is always on his job at 4 p.m., and that I am always online so I can play his last turn 24 exactly hours before his coming back time (64-24=40/168) 23,8%

So the fact that in 23,8% of time (ideal situation) it is no way to avoid sitting for Moonchild and that I sat only 28,7% of his turns in the said period of 2 months, which is much less than 38,1% of the time that he is absent from his computer, proves enough that I also take care about making my own turns which are prior to his turns faster/slower in order that his turn do not come in period of his absence.

I can harder manage this if our games are joined in thursday by away team, like it was in OSA challenge. Not once it happened that start of games were delayed by low days due to some players absence, so delay joining away games until sunday evening when knowing for a player absence is ideal way to avoid sitting in round 1 as you call it the most important round. Round 1 lasts in general shorter than 5 days, so opening turn of absent player would come until Friday if games are joined by away team in sunday. and this is what I propose if sitting in round 1 bothers you so lot. When I have 5 days to forecast when moonchild's will come, then hasting or stalling turns can be done much more effective than when away games are joined on thursday, which was in OSA challenge.

Chariot of Fire wrote:If Moonchild plays 62% of the time and Josko plays 38% of the time week after week (month after month) on the same account, what better example of account sharing is there? And it's not a simple case of Josko taking Moonchild's spot in those games because he is already in them himself, thus in effect controlling two players on the same team.

As stated in previous comment, number of turns sat is relevant, not number of time absent. for example, if you sleep 8 hours per day, that means at least 33% of your time you are absent from CC, but regardless of that you need 0% of the time someone sit for you. It is irrelevant how much time moonchild is absent, relevant info is how much of his turns need to be sit. and that is 28,7% from the time when he lost internet at home (if you disagree, you are free to provide more accurate data with links)

Chariot of Fire wrote:A simple ruling that restricts Moonchild from entering team games until such time as he has internet access is all that is really required. I'd have thought that was a fairly obvious resolution from a site that requires a player to log in every 24 hours.

When it was case about you, as part of your defense you stated that Pedronicus needed sitting at least one day per week due to his poker nights. So why did you put him into games if his absence for one day per every week was known?

... and another proof that I in any way do not want to gain unfair advantage but I try all my best to minimize sitting for Moonchild as much as possible:
from Ishihara wall, 5 days before the case was oppened. it can be still found on his wall to check.

"11962356 Moonchild is away this weekend, I am sitting maybe better join the 5 set on monday

by josko.ri
on Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:06 am"

I realized that Ishihara sent invites to his player in british isles games on Friday and therefore walled him, to avoid sitting in opening turn(s). he then sent invites on Monday. Another example of my honor and no wishing to gain any advantage by sitting for moonchild during weekends. not team games though (1v1 challenge) but still clan challenge.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby King Achilles on Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:35 pm

I believe deathcomesrippin has already explained how this has been noted. Most of the games presented in this case are related to clan games so we see this case also connected to clan wars. If a person is really unable to take his turn, he can have an account sitter to cover for him. It only becomes questionable if it was intentional which is how past similar cases were all about. Indefinite, definite, scheduled, etc. = first, establish if the owner was ever available during any time when a sitter was taking turns for him or even when he could have taken the turn by himself. Do we have anything to show that they were talking or planning when the owner would be intentionally unavailable? If there is none, and they even informed the other clan of what the situation would be, we can give the benefit of doubt to both parties and note the report for now.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby The Voice on Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:36 pm

Indeed, this is a case for the CDs. I'm anxious to learn what new rules are in the works and how they apply to sitting in clan games. With implementation of new rules, there will be those who perceive themselves as being winners or losers, as with every decision on this site, but life goes on. (This is a preemptive counter to the inevitable whining.)

CoF, I believe you when you say this case was nothing personal. However, I would argue there is a better way of addressing your concern about Josko's ability in unlimited. It's sticking to the old adage "practice makes perfect." Josko's great, but he's not infallible, as he pointed out.

EDIT: There's also the adage, "if you can't beat them, join them." Maybe KoRT is accepting applications.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby josko.ri on Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:04 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:What is not a necessary feature of the site is to continue joining games in the knowledge you cannot take your own turns


Your post from 5 months ago:
viewtopic.php?f=239&t=174462&start=75#p3812587
Chariot of Fire wrote:Pedro has trouble at work taking turns and on Thursday evenings is unavailable (as well as many weekends if he is away doing his art)


So, even when you knew that Pedro is unavailable Thursday evenings as well as many weekends, he was put in 15 of 28 games which were maximal allowed to play in CL4 Phase 2.

Isn't that pretty hypocrite doings from you?
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:29 pm

josko.ri wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote:What is not a necessary feature of the site is to continue joining games in the knowledge you cannot take your own turns


Your post from 5 months ago:
viewtopic.php?f=239&t=174462&start=75#p3812587
Chariot of Fire wrote:Pedro has trouble at work taking turns and on Thursday evenings is unavailable (as well as many weekends if he is away doing his art)


So, even when you knew that Pedro is unavailable Thursday evenings as well as many weekends, he was put in 15 of 28 games which were maximal allowed to play in CL4 Phase 2.

Isn't that pretty hypocrite doings from you?


I fail to see your point. For starters Pedro was absent for one evening in a week, not exceeding a 24 hour period, thus was able to predict that he could take all his turns in the usual way. Secondly, if you wish to draw parallels and comparisons to that case then maybe the same ruling or punishment should be meted out in this one? What I do or have done has no bearing on what you are currently doing and getting away with. Or would you like it to be compared?
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby josko.ri on Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:45 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:
josko.ri wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote:What is not a necessary feature of the site is to continue joining games in the knowledge you cannot take your own turns


Your post from 5 months ago:
viewtopic.php?f=239&t=174462&start=75#p3812587
Chariot of Fire wrote:Pedro has trouble at work taking turns and on Thursday evenings is unavailable (as well as many weekends if he is away doing his art)


So, even when you knew that Pedro is unavailable Thursday evenings as well as many weekends, he was put in 15 of 28 games which were maximal allowed to play in CL4 Phase 2.

Isn't that pretty hypocrite doings from you?


I fail to see your point. For starters Pedro was absent for one evening in a week, not exceeding a 24 hour period, thus was able to predict that he could take all his turns in the usual way. Secondly, if you wish to draw parallels and comparisons to that case then maybe the same ruling or punishment should be meted out in this one? What I do or have done has no bearing on what you are currently doing and getting away with. Or would you like it to be compared?

I do not mind it to be compared, because doings in the 2 cases were totally different, as is verdict. I believe you were not busted because of sitting for Pedro during his absent weekends but you were busted for doing many other things such as this: (you proposed to make comparisons, I accepted the proposal, so here goes the comparison)

What Chariot of Fire did in this report viewtopic.php?f=239&t=174462, comparing with what josko.ri did the current report:
a) Sitting for the player who is online at the same time like him. To not be catch in doing so, they made agreement that Chariot of Fire log in, and then original player log in, so nobody can catch them by seeing Hong Kong flag in sitting player profile. He was fully aware that it is against rules and he did everything to hide it. In Game 11176769 he did it for every 3 players, even when he was not original player in that game. He would never be caught if his teammate did not report him.
Sitting for the player who is absent from Friday afternoon to Monday morning, and actually my sitting is one day shorter, because the turns which starts at Sunday morning I leave to Moonchild so he can catch them in Monday morning when come back to job.
b) He never point in chat that he was sitting. Therefore, he would never be discovered in his cheating, if his teammate did not report him. He did it because he was aware that he is doing gross abuse of the game.
I every time report my sitting in game chat. I think I do not do anything against rules, so I do not have anything to hide.
c) His opponents did not have idea that he is doing gross game abuse in games vs them.
My opponents were informed in advance that Moonchild will be absent during every weekend days, and they had agreed about that.
d) He played maximal number of allowed games in Clan League 4 Phase1 (28/28) and in addition on that he also made numerous sitting for other players. So, he was overused player in that war.
I played 14 of maximal 20 games in KORT vs OSA war. If I wished to play more, I could do it from my profile, I did not needed sitting for Moonchild to play more games than allowed.

Just make comparisons between red doings and blue doings and you will maybe get point why those 2 cases are totally different doings, as are verdicts. one case was gross abuse of account sitting system, and other case was no rule breaking.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:51 pm

Repeat, for your convenience:

What I do or have done has no bearing on what you are currently doing and getting away with


The simple fact is Moonchild controls his account from Monday morning to Friday afternoon. You then control his account from Friday evening to 9.00am Monday morning. You are in simple truth sharing one account. I have also cited examples of where you have played your turn early (e.g. after just a few hours from when it's due) so that Moonchild's turn will fall due over the weekend - which could have been avoided - and which is totally contrary to what you claim to have done.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby josko.ri on Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:07 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:Repeat, for your convenience:

What I do or have done has no bearing on what you are currently doing and getting away with


The simple fact is Moonchild controls his account from Monday morning to Friday afternoon. You then control his account from Friday evening to 9.00am Monday morning. You are in simple truth sharing one account. I have also cited examples of where you have played your turn early (e.g. after just a few hours from when it's due) so that Moonchild's turn will fall due over the weekend - which could have been avoided - and which is totally contrary to what you claim to have done.

I cannot always be online 24 hours per day and always wait until the last moment to stall my turns. I do it when I can but I cannot do it everytime as I am not 0/24 on CC. I can also provide much more examples where I haste my Thursday turn which were prior to Moonchild turns, in order that he gets chance to catch his own turn on Friday. The most representative example is Game 11960113 for example, where I played my own opening Thursday turn with 23.40 hours left on the timer in order to let Moonchild chance to catch his Friday turn. It did not happen finally because yellow took a lot of time for his turn, but my point is my own effort to give Moonchild chance to catch his turn. Hasting turns previous to his is much easier way than stalling turns during weekend, because hasting Thursday turn is easy, I see turn and I play. Stalling Saturday turn is harder, because it can happen that I get stuck in real life and become unable to come back to play the turn, so with weekend stalling I increase danger of potential miss. Just to point out, there was no single other unlimited fort opening turn that I have ever played in any my CC game with 23.40 or less hours left on timer. SO obviously for this one was some special reason, and this was haste turn in order to get chance to Moonchild to possible catch his turn in Friday. I could very easy stall my Thursday turn, and thus making sure Moon turn would come on Saturday, if I wished so. The fact that I played it with 23.40 hours left on timer only proves that my wish was increasing chance to Moonchild to catch the turn on Friday.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Chariot of Fire on Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:02 am

The "I murdered two people but I didn't murder that guy sitting over there, even though I could have done" defence. Nice.

You carry on being you (and Moonchild every weekend). I've said all I wish to on the matter, other than that I expect you'll find members of whichever clan faces KORT in the Cup semi-finals will also find this practice unacceptable.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby josko.ri on Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:32 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:I expect you'll find members of whichever clan faces KORT in the Cup semi-finals will also find this practice unacceptable.

It is much more acceptable practice than to be online at the same time like original player, log in and then as soon as possible original player log in to hide sitter flag.

If this is not acceptable then Moonchild and all other weekend or part time absent players would need to leave CC.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Chariot of Fire on Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:47 am

Why would they need to leave CC? They simply stop joining games they are unable to play. Is that unreasonable?
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby josko.ri on Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:00 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:Why would they need to leave CC? They simply stop joining games they are unable to play. Is that unreasonable?

I mean they would not need to leave playing CC totally, so would be able only to be forum posters. is this the way you wish it?
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Metsfanmax on Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:00 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:Why would they need to leave CC? They simply stop joining games they are unable to play. Is that unreasonable?


What do you mean by "unable to play?" If you mean "will miss turns every weekend," then that's really just every game in the case of Moonchild, which basically means he does have to leave CC by your standard. This won't change until we get those 72 hour games going.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby josko.ri on Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:01 am

Metsfanmax wrote:This won't change until we get those 72 hour games going.


This is excellent idea to solve the sitting problems. Or, putting 48 or 72 hour turns only for weekends, not because of Moonchild but because of the fact that many players are more busy during weekends than during working days.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby Chariot of Fire on Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:08 am

Of course he doesn't have to leave CC. Just take one look at pages of his recent games - all speed games played from his place of work (busy lad!). So he's still deriving a lot of fun from the site, can play games he evidently likes and post in forums. He simply shouldn't be considered for team games when KORT, with a member list stretching to 30, are assembling teams for challenges and really don't need to use him (but then where would be their advantage if they didn't?).

"Oh hey, let's put Moonchild in all of Josko's unlimited fort quad games so he can be covered for a majority of his first turns" - because that's exactly what it looks like when you read the stats.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby josko.ri on Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:21 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:He simply shouldn't be considered for team games when KORT

Why your analogy apply only for team games? if site gonna accept your rule proposal, why do not apply that for standard games also? if someone is unable to play, then he is unable regardless of game type (speed game excluded, forgot about that).

Chariot of Fire wrote:"Oh hey, let's put Moonchild in all of Josko's unlimited fort quad games so he can be covered for a majority of his first turns" - because that's exactly what it looks like when you read the stats.


As a contrary we say "He is our member and he deserves to have fun playing in clan wars, what he has done for years while he had internet at house. This is site for fun, and he has fun in doing it. Forbidding him to do it would be take fun out of part time users."

If our statement was what you wrote now, then we would put him in hive unlimited game, not in world 2.1. Hive game has 171 troops to attack/fort in round 1 and w 2.1 has 56 troops to attack/fort in round 1. Obviously, the more strategy is needed to successfully play with 171 troops than successfully play with 56 troops. If our goal was put him in games in order that his turns can be sat by me, then he would be put in hive and not in world 2.1. BUT, he is playing this for fun, not for cheating, so that is why he was just put in his favorite maps which he had played on regular basis both before lack of internet and after lack on internet. He likes this game, he likes those maps, and he has fun playing it by himself. Forbidding that would be taking out fun from him and from any other player in the similar scenario.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby greenoaks on Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:42 am

i don't understand why josko.ri gets to play 2 accounts every weekend.

why does he get treated differently because he is in a clan? going halvesy with a clanmate should be no different to going halves with a brother.
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Re: josko.ri & Moonchild [Noted] DCR

Postby deathcomesrippin on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:17 am

As much as I would love to continue this conversation, maybe it's time to move it to an appropriate forum.
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