J-Bone and Bmusic[CLEARED/NOTED]es

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J-Bone and Bmusic[CLEARED/NOTED]es

Postby krusher on Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:24 pm

Accused:
J-Bone
Bmusic

The accused are suspected of:
Conducting Secret Diplomacy
Account sitting each other while in the same game!

Game number(s):
Game 12150840

Comments:
The game is Fog but I had enough regions bordering both players to see what was going on. I whiped out J-bone from the map with the exception of 1 region Sonderberg which he had 3 troops on. I had 1 troop stationed in Tonder so not enough to eliminate him but enough to see what he had. Sonder Jylland bonus is currently disputed/unclaimed which is where all of Bmusics and J-bone regions are located. Note that J-Bone has only 1 region with 3 troops and 3 cards that he didn't cash in, he than deploys an additional 3 troops for his turn and takes over 2 regions belonging to (Me and rcfritz) seemingly the only people capable of eliminating him since we know where he is and since he can count on his buddy bmusic not to do it. He then ends his turn and now has 4 cards and around 3-6 troops in total...note that now the continent Sonder Jylland is now evenly divided between Bmusic and J-bone, each having 3 regions in it... The problem is that Bmusic does not do what is expected for any rational risk player. He does not do whats in his best interst... eliminate j-bone for his 4 cards... He forfeits the only viable continent that he has any chance of taking and where he has all his troops and regions at and makes a most obvious secret diplomacy move. He takes his stack of 15 troops and instead of eliminating his friend J-bone who only has 3-6 troops in 3 regions and taking his cards and getting the continent, he moves somewhere else, all the way north from Ribe to Varde with his 15 troops in a apparent attempt of an invasion of a differnt continent even though he has no holdings, foresight or claim to this new continent. Its obvious that he went beyond his way to avoid killing his friend Jbone.. not only that but he forfeited his only shot at a continent to give it to his much weaker friend j-bone so that he'd have a chance to rebuild.

These guys are both experienced players with many games under their belt. Anyone that knows of strategy knows that this is a no brainer, especially since J-bone and Bmusic were sharing the same continent and obviously one of them should have killed the other for supremacy over the continent and for the extra boost in troops that cashing in jbones cards after eliminating him would have given bmusic.

After such obvious questionable moves i did some searches of these two past involvements and I must say. Its like history reliving itself. There’s an old saying it takes a cheater to catch a cheater, well their tactics is much like my own back in the day when I was engaged in secret diplomacy. They have a total of 27 games played together 12 of which they have been partners playing in doubles/triples/quads together, so they definitely know each other well enough. The rest of their games together have been 6-8 players (the standard number for most engaged in secret diplomacy)

After a closer look at their other games it is very obvious that the percentage ratio that these two attack each other are extremely low. To the point that they don't really attack each other in any significant way other than for the purpose to share card spots.

Another interesting fact about these two is that they NEVER communicate with each other using the game chat for any sort of border truce...Although both clearly seem to have a knowledge of what each other is doing and an understanding of what their role is.

Game 9494627
Comment: They NEVER attacked each other.

Game 9026969
Comment: Never took more than 1 region from each other on the few times they did attack one another.

Game 11529957
Comment: Same pattern, only time they attacked each other neither one took more than a single region from the other (either it was on their way or they were exchanging cards) and no communication between either one in game chat.[/color]

Game 12057369
Comment: Bmusic throws the game to jbone...On round 8 bmusic suicides on yellow for no apparent reason, jbone then begins his turn and eliminates yellow who was considerably weakened by bmusic and goes on to win the game with the help of bmusic.

Game 12057393
Comment: Jbone and Bmusic are communicating with a 3rd player (where they are encouraging him to attack a 4th player in game chat.) Seems like Jbone and Bmusic are almost the same person by the way they are thinking and what they are saying either that or they are having private conversations elsewhere.


Game 10556606
Comment: This game is the most obvious. They avoided attacking each other until they had eliminated everyone else. Starting from round 12 you can clearly see they double teamed player tracer until he was eliminated. Only then did they start attacking each other.

Game 10556619
Comment: In this game jbone admits to account sitting for bmusic!!! he posts in chat that he is Sitting! Yes I repeat sitting for bmusic even though they are both playing in the same bloody game together! This is absurd!!! Nothing short of having a multy. "2012-02-17 05:34:19 - bmusic: J-bone for bmusic" and again they Never attacked each other throughout the entire bloody game!


Conclusion:
It’s hard to imagine that no one has caught up with these two yet. Their pattern is a very obvious one and has negatively affected many players of this great game that we enjoy. Abuse like this cannot be tolerated; they should both get the maximum punishment. Score-reset, blocked from playing with each other and stripped of premium.
Last edited by krusher on Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: J-Bone and Bmusic

Postby Gillipig on Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:06 pm

This is certainly not allowed. Not even gray zone. Don't know anyone stupid enough to proclaim they're sitting for someone in a none team game, that they're in themselves.

2012-02-17 11:34:19 - bmusic: J-bone for bmusic

The rest of the accusations is not as easy to understand. At least one of the games you mentioned used fog of war, which makes things harder for us to weigh in on. If they routinely join lots of none team games and win them in suspicious fashion, then perhaps you have something here.
Do you have any game chat where other players express frustration/bewilderment at their play? That would help your report considerably.
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Re: J-Bone and Bmusic

Postby Symmetry on Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:15 pm

Aye there's a lot of interesting stuff there, but it's not really at the point reset, strip premium level of severity. Good catch though krusher.
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Re: J-Bone and Bmusic

Postby ke_rassa on Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:37 pm

When was the last time you engaged in SD Krusher and have we ever played each other?
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Re: J-Bone and Bmusic

Postby krusher on Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:48 pm

ke_rassa wrote:When was the last time you engaged in SD Krusher and have we ever played each other?

right before I was busted... IDK if we played each other... but the point of this thread is that I see my old self in these two. They clearly are engaging in secret diplomacy and I have given more than enough evidence to bust them.
Last edited by krusher on Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: J-Bone and Bmusic

Postby krusher on Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:50 pm

Gillipig wrote:This is certainly not allowed. Not even gray zone. Don't know anyone stupid enough to proclaim they're sitting for someone in a none team game, that they're in themselves.

2012-02-17 11:34:19 - bmusic: J-bone for bmusic

The rest of the accusations is not as easy to understand. At least one of the games you mentioned used fog of war, which makes things harder for us to weigh in on. If they routinely join lots of none team games and win them in suspicious fashion, then perhaps you have something here.
Do you have any game chat where other players express frustration/bewilderment at their play? That would help your report considerably.


The only game I am in with them is the fog of war. hopefully mods have some way to see through fog and verify what I said as true. Like i mentioned the only way i noticed there was something going on was because I was fell short in eliminating J-bone leaving him with a single territory I was expecting someone else would of taken the easy kill and claimed j-bones 4 cards but when bmusic didn't and instead moved towards me i noticed something was wrong. as i dug deeper I found all this.
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Re: J-Bone and Bmusic

Postby krusher on Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:03 pm

Symmetry wrote:Aye there's a lot of interesting stuff there, but it's not really at the point reset, strip premium level of severity. Good catch though krusher.

I did far less than they ever did and I was punished most severely. These guys are going beyond secret diplomacy they are account sitting each other in the same games, they are virtually multys. What do we do with multys with a long history of abuse? The rest of my accusation is just me saying they aren't attacking each other as evidenced by game logs. I think I made a strong enough case to find these two guilty, and if they don't than shame on CC. A noted or slap on the hand will not suffice.
Last edited by krusher on Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: J-Bone and Bmusic

Postby Gillipig on Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:08 pm

krusher wrote:
Gillipig wrote:This is certainly not allowed. Not even gray zone. Don't know anyone stupid enough to proclaim they're sitting for someone in a none team game, that they're in themselves.

2012-02-17 11:34:19 - bmusic: J-bone for bmusic

The rest of the accusations is not as easy to understand. At least one of the games you mentioned used fog of war, which makes things harder for us to weigh in on. If they routinely join lots of none team games and win them in suspicious fashion, then perhaps you have something here.
Do you have any game chat where other players express frustration/bewilderment at their play? That would help your report considerably.


The only game I am in with them is the fog of war. hopefully mods have some way to see through fog and verify what I said as true. Like i mentioned the only way i noticed there was something going on was because I was fell short in eliminating J-bone leaving him with a single territory I was expecting someone else would of taken the easy kill and claimed j-bones 4 cards but when bmusic didn't and instead moved towards me i noticed something was wrong. as i dug deeper I found all this. I did far less than they ever did and I was punished most severely. These guys are going beyond secret diplomacy its account sitting each other in same games they are virtually multys. What do we do with multys with a long history of abuse? The rest of my accusation is just me saying they aren't attacking each other as evidenced by game logs. I think I made a strong enough case to find these two guilty, and if they don't than shame on CC. A noted or slap on the hand will not suffice.

Then I suggest you do a better job at presenting how they conducted secret diplomacy. Wall chat, more easily accesible statistics, illustrating how beyond any doubt this is a case of SD. What you have so far is one documented case where J-bone sat for bmusic in a game he definitely shouldn't have. If that is all you're able to convince a C&A mod that they did wrong, then they will get away with a note or at worst a warning.
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Re: J-Bone and Bmusic

Postby Symmetry on Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:26 pm

krusher wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Aye there's a lot of interesting stuff there, but it's not really at the point reset, strip premium level of severity. Good catch though krusher.

I did far less than they ever did and I was punished most severely. These guys are going beyond secret diplomacy they are account sitting each other in the same games, they are virtually multys. What do we do with multys with a long history of abuse? The rest of my accusation is just me saying they aren't attacking each other as evidenced by game logs. I think I made a strong enough case to find these two guilty, and if they don't than shame on CC. A noted or slap on the hand will not suffice.


You didn't actually call them on being multis, I don't think you'll get the call from the mods that you want, but they have more tools to catch multi abuse than I will ever have, so there's always a maybe.

You picked up a lot of dodgy gameplay, and a warning seems in order, but I don't think you'll get a reset or a stripping of premium.
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Re: J-Bone and Bmusic

Postby krusher on Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:40 pm

Gillipig wrote:
krusher wrote:
Gillipig wrote:This is certainly not allowed. Not even gray zone. Don't know anyone stupid enough to proclaim they're sitting for someone in a none team game, that they're in themselves.

2012-02-17 11:34:19 - bmusic: J-bone for bmusic

The rest of the accusations is not as easy to understand. At least one of the games you mentioned used fog of war, which makes things harder for us to weigh in on. If they routinely join lots of none team games and win them in suspicious fashion, then perhaps you have something here.
Do you have any game chat where other players express frustration/bewilderment at their play? That would help your report considerably.


The only game I am in with them is the fog of war. hopefully mods have some way to see through fog and verify what I said as true. Like i mentioned the only way i noticed there was something going on was because I was fell short in eliminating J-bone leaving him with a single territory I was expecting someone else would of taken the easy kill and claimed j-bones 4 cards but when bmusic didn't and instead moved towards me i noticed something was wrong. as i dug deeper I found all this. I did far less than they ever did and I was punished most severely. These guys are going beyond secret diplomacy its account sitting each other in same games they are virtually multys. What do we do with multys with a long history of abuse? The rest of my accusation is just me saying they aren't attacking each other as evidenced by game logs. I think I made a strong enough case to find these two guilty, and if they don't than shame on CC. A noted or slap on the hand will not suffice.

Then I suggest you do a better job at presenting how they conducted secret diplomacy. Wall chat, more easily accesible statistics, illustrating how beyond any doubt this is a case of SD. What you have so far is one documented case where J-bone sat for bmusic in a game he definitely shouldn't have. If that is all you're able to convince a C&A mod that they did wrong, then they will get away with a note or at worst a warning.



1. I have established their friendship
- They know each other well enough to sit for one another and play team games together.
- Almost all secret diplomacy is derived from these relationship mentioned above.

2. I have established they are NOT communicating with each other in game chat
- BUT their moves are coordinated as if they have a mutual understanding.
-Which can only mean they are communicating privately Email/MSN/Skype what ever...beyond my reach to see.

3. They are not attacking each other in any significant manner.
- I posted several games where you can read the gamelog and see for yourself they aren't attacking each other or doing sginificant damage.
-They are avoiding each other and eliminating everyone else before focusing on one another which I already mentioned in the post
-I also pointed out a game where bmusic suciided on a 3rd player so that j-bone could eliminate them both and cash in their cards and win.

4. I have them admitting in at least one game of sitting each others account while playing against eachother in the same game.
- Which is evidence that they have broken a rule so they are already guilty and if you think about it this is more serious than the SD accusation.
- From this abuse you can only pressume further irregularitys between these two ie. Secret Diplomacy
- In the justice system there is not such thing as beyond any doubt. But I think this is beyond resonable doubt, short of a confession.
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Re: J-Bone and Bmusic

Postby krusher on Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:00 pm

Symmetry wrote:
krusher wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Aye there's a lot of interesting stuff there, but it's not really at the point reset, strip premium level of severity. Good catch though krusher.

I did far less than they ever did and I was punished most severely. These guys are going beyond secret diplomacy they are account sitting each other in the same games, they are virtually multys. What do we do with multys with a long history of abuse? The rest of my accusation is just me saying they aren't attacking each other as evidenced by game logs. I think I made a strong enough case to find these two guilty, and if they don't than shame on CC. A noted or slap on the hand will not suffice.


You didn't actually call them on being multis, I don't think you'll get the call from the mods that you want, but they have more tools to catch multi abuse than I will ever have, so there's always a maybe.

You picked up a lot of dodgy gameplay, and a warning seems in order, but I don't think you'll get a reset or a stripping of premium.


They aren't multis by the very deffinition but they are doing what a multy would.. 1 person controlling 2 accounts at the same in the same game against other people without it being a team game. If you read the game rules again you will see these guys have broken all 3.. They can be considered multis, they are engaging in secret diplomacy and they are breaking unwritten rules. I got a point reset, premium stripped and a ban against playing with my sd contacts and I only broke 1 rule... Either CC has gone soft or the new management considers cheating to be ok. You gotta be just to everyone. I fucked up and I was punished... if these guys don't get punished for doing far worse than I ever did than I want an apology from CC my points and my premium back. its simple as that.

In the words of Cesare Beccaria justice is only affective if punishment is certain, swift and severe.
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Re: J-Bone and Bmusic

Postby Symmetry on Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:07 pm

krusher wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
krusher wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Aye there's a lot of interesting stuff there, but it's not really at the point reset, strip premium level of severity. Good catch though krusher.

I did far less than they ever did and I was punished most severely. These guys are going beyond secret diplomacy they are account sitting each other in the same games, they are virtually multys. What do we do with multys with a long history of abuse? The rest of my accusation is just me saying they aren't attacking each other as evidenced by game logs. I think I made a strong enough case to find these two guilty, and if they don't than shame on CC. A noted or slap on the hand will not suffice.


You didn't actually call them on being multis, I don't think you'll get the call from the mods that you want, but they have more tools to catch multi abuse than I will ever have, so there's always a maybe.

You picked up a lot of dodgy gameplay, and a warning seems in order, but I don't think you'll get a reset or a stripping of premium.


They aren't multis by the very deffinition but they are doing what a multy would.. 1 person controlling 2 accounts at the same in the same game against other people without it being a team game. If you read the game rules again you will see these guys have broken all 3.. They can be considered multis, they are engaging in secret diplomacy and they are breaking unwritten rules. I got a point reset, premium stripped and a ban against playing with my sd contacts and I only broke 1 rule... Either CC has gone soft or the new management considers cheating to be ok. You gotta be just to everyone. I fucked up and I was punished... if these guys don't get punished for doing far worse than I ever did than I want an apology from CC my points and my premium back. its simple as that.

In the words of Cesare Beccaria justice is only affective if punishment is certain, swift and severe.


I do think you have a good case, just not the case you think you have. I think you're in a game, and you're pissed off. The game will only get worse as whatever the justifications for your anger you've taken it pretty public. This won't encourage favourable play.

I'm generally skeptical of complaints made during a game in progress. As are the mods generally. Tempers get high. Still, I'm leaving this one alone now.
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Re: J-Bone and Bmusic

Postby krusher on Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:17 pm

Symmetry wrote:
krusher wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
krusher wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Aye there's a lot of interesting stuff there, but it's not really at the point reset, strip premium level of severity. Good catch though krusher.

I did far less than they ever did and I was punished most severely. These guys are going beyond secret diplomacy they are account sitting each other in the same games, they are virtually multys. What do we do with multys with a long history of abuse? The rest of my accusation is just me saying they aren't attacking each other as evidenced by game logs. I think I made a strong enough case to find these two guilty, and if they don't than shame on CC. A noted or slap on the hand will not suffice.


You didn't actually call them on being multis, I don't think you'll get the call from the mods that you want, but they have more tools to catch multi abuse than I will ever have, so there's always a maybe.

You picked up a lot of dodgy gameplay, and a warning seems in order, but I don't think you'll get a reset or a stripping of premium.


They aren't multis by the very deffinition but they are doing what a multy would.. 1 person controlling 2 accounts at the same in the same game against other people without it being a team game. If you read the game rules again you will see these guys have broken all 3.. They can be considered multis, they are engaging in secret diplomacy and they are breaking unwritten rules. I got a point reset, premium stripped and a ban against playing with my sd contacts and I only broke 1 rule... Either CC has gone soft or the new management considers cheating to be ok. You gotta be just to everyone. I fucked up and I was punished... if these guys don't get punished for doing far worse than I ever did than I want an apology from CC my points and my premium back. its simple as that.

In the words of Cesare Beccaria justice is only affective if punishment is certain, swift and severe.


I do think you have a good case, just not the case you think you have. I think you're in a game, and you're pissed off. The game will only get worse as whatever the justifications for your anger you've taken it pretty public. This won't encourage favourable play.

I'm generally skeptical of complaints made during a game in progress. As are the mods generally. Tempers get high. Still, I'm leaving this one alone now.


I understand. But I have the upper hand in the game and wasn't even thinking much about it and at this point in my career winning/losing/points doesn't really matter, I play casually. Theres really no issue of me and them personally not as of right now atleast I assume they will want to come after me since I accused them but hey I didn't get away with it neither should they. They didn't team up against me in the game nor am i being threatened (only bmusic has a adjacent territory with my borders) by them I can assure you its not a factor for me reporting them. I just saw foul play and I reported.
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Re: J-Bone and Bmusic[pending]es

Postby krusher on Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:33 pm

How much longer is this going to take? This is an open and shut case, evidence is there. Whack the hammer down mods :lol:
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Re: J-Bone and Bmusic[pending]es

Postby Evil Semp on Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:45 pm

krusher wrote:The only game I am in with them is the fog of war. hopefully mods have some way to see through fog and verify what I said as true.


No we can't see through the fog. If we did we wouldn't be able to play fog games.

krusher wrote:How much longer is this going to take? This is an open and shut case, evidence is there. Whack the hammer down mods :lol:


This is far from being an open and shut case. All the evidence you have provided is circumstantial.

Game 12150840:

Just because someone doesn't make a move that you think is obvious might not be so obvious to the accused. This game is also flat rate which means if Bmusic attempted to eliminate J-bone the most troops he would have gotten in a mid turn would have been 10 +2 for any of the cards he held. He would have had to eliminate 3-6 troops. You assume that these two were communicating between each other but I can't assume that. Maybe Bmusic didn't think it was worth the risk to eliminate J-bone. How many troops would Bmusic have lost going for the rainbow trade?

Would Bmusic have had a chance to win the game if he eliminated J-bone? Remember they both only had 3 countries when Bmusic started his turn. Eliminating J-bone would have been more beneficial to you than it would have been for himself.

In the other games on one hand you complain they don't attack each then when they do you attack each other you minimize it for only taking cards.

krusher wrote:Game 12057393
Comment: Jbone and Bmusic are communicating with a 3rd player (where they are encouraging him to attack a 4th player in game chat.)


Trying to influence players in game chat is part of the game.

krusher wrote:I did far less than they ever did and I was punished most severely. These guys are going beyond secret diplomacy they are account sitting each other in the same games, they are virtually multys.


[
krusher wrote:Game 10556619
Comment: In this game jbone admits to account sitting for bmusic!!! he posts in chat that he is Sitting! Yes I repeat sitting for bmusic even though they are both playing in the same bloody game together! This is absurd!!! Nothing short of having a multy. "2012-02-17 05:34:19 - bmusic: J-bone for bmusic" and again they Never attacked each other throughout the entire bloody game!
These guys are not account sitting for each other at this time. They might have in the past but not right now.


The accused are no multi's and both accounts are not being controlled by one. The game where bmusic sat for J-bone is over a year old. I could have been an honest mistake. Why announce in chat if you are cheating?

For the sitting in the same game I will NOTE this. For the secret diplomacy the are CLEARED.
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