throwing a game[warned]

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Re: throwing a game[pending]

Postby Chariot of Fire on Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:52 am

There is no skill involved when two people are in cahoots in a freestyle game. The only brain cells necessary are those needed to synchronize watches with your (unannounced) ally and to take it in turns winning the spoils.
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Re: throwing a game[pending]

Postby jsnyder748 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:37 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:There is no skill involved when two people are in cahoots in a freestyle game. The only brain cells necessary are those needed to synchronize watches with your (unannounced) ally and to take it in turns winning the spoils.


In this particular case yes, but not in the majority of their games. That is my point. It doesn't really matter anymore.
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Re: throwing a game[pending]

Postby Bones2484 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:29 pm

jsnyder748 wrote:
Chariot of Fire wrote:There is no skill involved when two people are in cahoots in a freestyle game. The only brain cells necessary are those needed to synchronize watches with your (unannounced) ally and to take it in turns winning the spoils.


In this particular case yes, but not in the majority of their games. That is my point. It doesn't really matter anymore.


You sound like Dennis Rodman. "This Kim guy has killed millions of people and starved his nation? Who cares? Other than that, he's great! I like him!".
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Re: throwing a game[pending]

Postby b00060 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:52 pm

Ditto that
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Re: throwing a game[pending]

Postby jsnyder748 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:03 pm

well. If i tell the truth him and xiang I would consider "online risk friends" they sort of introduced me to what I liked about cc when starting out. The freestyle 8 person games. Told me strategy and were always friendly.

No one really cares what I think, but I just like talking and stating opinions and getting all of yours in return.

and b00060...I really don't remember why I unfoed you. Mistake on my part.
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Re: throwing a game[pending]

Postby Kiron on Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:28 pm

I believe I already mentioned that this deal was a mistaken understanding of the rules based on falling victim to this in many past games. Thanks jsynder748 for your kind defence. I only came back to play from retirement because xiangwang (he was getting bored) wanted me to play against him to spice up his games. We dislike teams mostly because the points win rate is too long compared to loss rates given our rank. It's been seen from our past logs that we can play fine without each other in games (of course it makes sense that our mutual win rate may increase when we play freestyle together, just add our two base chance of winning together). But that's like saying MC and I can't play games together because the chance of our win rate together increases. I understand that you are angry at the single game, it was just a mistaken understanding of the rules based on past experience of being victim to it believing it was legal.
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Re: throwing a game

Postby mc05025 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:32 pm

xiangwang wrote:Look at this game:

http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=12075780


I am so glad I am an example at those cases!

Although I do not know if what we did was tottaly ok (that story with the gambling games started long ago with me and Rodion by the way and was never brought here) but it is not the same like what you did.

Anything we did (diplomacy and gambling) was concerning the specific game. Anything was clear at the game and all players of the game had the opportunity to see what is going on. Nothing outside of it. What you did was outside the game. It is the same like telling him that you will give him 5 dollars if he gives you the game or you can play a poker game or you can just give the game because something at your personal life.
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Re: throwing a game[pending]

Postby Rodion on Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:36 pm

For reference, that's the original game:

http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=8807710
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Re: throwing a game[pending]es

Postby Shannon Apple on Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:55 pm

jsnyder748 wrote:
Shannon Apple wrote:I don't know why your group think it is fine to what looks like passing the conquerer title around. The second linked game seems like it is the same bunch of people, or some of them. It's kinda dumb if you ask me, because it hasn't been earned. Part of the fun in any game is earning the rewards and KNOWING that you earned it without having it handed to you. It kinda takes away the novelty of gaining such a title when people pull stuff like this. :(

Just my 2 cents.


Who are you to say they have not earned it? Have you worked as hard as them in the few games they play at a time to win? They spend more hours than most watching just one game to make sure they have the best chance possible. They have perfected a strategy for freestyle 8 person games and for objective freestyle games. Is it unlike Ljex who played freestyle quads, blitzahalic who played quads, mc05025 who was an amazing strategist and won in multiple areas consistantly, TheBest when he played 1 v 1 city mogul vs anyone who wanted to play him and won vs even the best of us, or kaskeval who played sequential 1 v 1's (the most unbalanced game settings in cc) and still made it.

What conquerer was able to achieve his rank by playing any type of game vs anyone? none. absolutely none (unless you count the beginning of cc when anyone could get conquerer). That is what conquerer is these days. The person who specializes at a certain game type. The person who puts in the time. The person who has the strategic knowledge. The person who is able to find their niche or the road less traveled by others to reach a high rank.

No one who plays simple games vs other established players will ever reach it. That is the nature of conquerer and the nature of the dice. However noble it is, however fun it is, they will not get to conquerer that way. What you are saying is to reward those players with conquerer when they can never reach it because of the current system. I realizeed this long ago. I love playing other majors/colonels in team games on simple maps just for fun, but the dice decide mosst games.

These "people" who play together all understand the strategy behind it. Others don't do the strategy because they don't understand, or they don't have the time or they think it is cheap. I don't think any strategy is cheap if you make it your own.

It is not strategy to farm new players of course. It is strategy to use settings, maps, and a gametype to your advantage and skill set. Why do you think these "players" have gotten so high in the ranks? because only a few truly get it and can get to the rank.

I was in the game in question. I am not happy to lose in this way, but to say that kiron does not deserve conquerer is obsene. He could have gotten it another way if he chose.

Decide what you like about the tactics used in this game, but Kiron has worked hard and beat the odds to get here.


I know enough about the game to know the behaviour in that game isn't right. You can defend them all you want. :3

Nobody deserves a rank no matter how hard they work, if in the end, someone else has to set games up for them. Like I said, it takes the novelty away if people are going to think "Hey what's the point, people just give each other points to get there." It destroys the whole sense of achievement behind the title. I don't think throwing games back and forth can be defended, no matter how skilled one is as a player.

I never said they didn't have skill. I would rather not have words placed in my mouth (or fingers as the case may be.) However, from what I see, no, they don't deserve the title if this is how it's achieved. At least be realistic. There are many players on this site, many more skilled than me, but this does not prevent me from seeing an injustice.

Do you think throwing games is fair to all the other players in the game? Am6zero certainly didn't agree to it or he wouldn't have made this thread. I don't care if he is of a lower rank, he was just as entitled to a fair shot of winning as everyone else. He shouldn't have had to report it, because it shouldn't be happening and I stand by this point because this is a game and conquerer isn't really a title that gets elected, it gets earned. (Again, I did not say the player is without skill. I actually have no idea how skilled he is, nor do I care. I only care about this incident and other possible ones like it)
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Re: throwing a game

Postby xiangwang on Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:15 pm

mc05025 wrote:
xiangwang wrote:Look at this game:

http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=12075780


I am so glad I am an example at those cases!

Although I do not know if what we did was tottaly ok (that story with the gambling games started long ago with me and Rodion by the way and was never brought here) but it is not the same like what you did.

Anything we did (diplomacy and gambling) was concerning the specific game. Anything was clear at the game and all players of the game had the opportunity to see what is going on. Nothing outside of it. What you did was outside the game. It is the same like telling him that you will give him 5 dollars if he gives you the game or you can play a poker game or you can just give the game because something at your personal life.



I disagree. In that game the three of you made a bet with 33% odds for the winner to win the game. It's no different than what happened in our game. I originally offered using castile vs. granada for an 85% odds for me and i also offered 3 games and kiron must take all 3 to win. The odds were the same and all were open in chat. Kiron just chose the latter instead of the former. So u saying if kiron chose the castile vs. granada then we would be the same?
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Re: throwing a game[pending]

Postby mc05025 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:29 pm

Yes, that is what you should have done.
It was the other players mistake to let you play last.

But anything should be at the game. The 3 games where not in the game. (not to mention the fog that made the other players unable to control what is happening for sure, but even without the fog the players are not forced to go into your games and search what you are doing)

The other players had no control of what you were doing. (for example you might gave up all 3 games).

If you have done at the castile vs. granada the other players would be able to check if what is happening is 'logical' (for example if the odds are right or it is an excuse of giving the game away and if he trully won the 15%) or make an other offer or try to persude you otherwise or something.
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Re: throwing a game[pending]

Postby b00060 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:01 pm

Any of you guys want to play me 1v1?
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Re: throwing a game[pending]

Postby jsnyder748 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:08 pm

b00060 wrote:Any of you guys want to play me 1v1?

Nope. You will accuse me of being a multi or using cheap tactics lol
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Re: throwing a game[pending]es

Postby jsnyder748 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:15 pm

Shannon apple wrote:
I know enough about the game to know the behaviour in that game isn't right. You can defend them all you want. :3

Nobody deserves a rank no matter how hard they work, if in the end, someone else has to set games up for them. Like I said, it takes the novelty away if people are going to think "Hey what's the point, people just give each other points to get there." It destroys the whole sense of achievement behind the title. I don't think throwing games back and forth can be defended, no matter how skilled one is as a player.

I never said they didn't have skill. I would rather not have words placed in my mouth (or fingers as the case may be.) However, from what I see, no, they don't deserve the title if this is how it's achieved. At least be realistic. There are many players on this site, many more skilled than me, but this does not prevent me from seeing an injustice.

Do you think throwing games is fair to all the other players in the game? Am6zero certainly didn't agree to it or he wouldn't have made this thread. I don't care if he is of a lower rank, he was just as entitled to a fair shot of winning as everyone else. He shouldn't have had to report it, because it shouldn't be happening and I stand by this point because this is a game and conquerer isn't really a title that gets elected, it gets earned. (Again, I did not say the player is without skill. I actually have no idea how skilled he is, nor do I care. I only care about this incident and other possible ones like it)


I was not defending their actions in the game! get your facts straight people. I know that what they did was against the rules. NOT DEFENDING THAT.

I was in the game....you think I don't know how unfair it was? *sigh*

"Again, I did not say the player is without skill. I actually have no idea how skilled he is, nor do I care. I only care about this incident and other possible ones like it"

I was telling you that he is skilled. That this is one example of where he used an unfair advantage to get to conqueror. He was 100 points away before this and by saying what you did you discredit every bit of skill used to reach the rank of field marshal.

If you truly believe he cheated every bit of the way up to his rank like you suggest then why haven't you made a c and a report for it?
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Re: throwing a game[pending]es

Postby Shannon Apple on Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:28 pm

jsnyder748 wrote:If you truly believe he cheated every bit of the way up to his rank like you suggest then why haven't you made a c and a report for it?

I never said that hahahahaha!

I do know he was busted for being a multi, so yes, he cheated before, but that's only from doing a little search on him on the forums. Anyone can do that. However, that's not the point, this incident was cheating. If you want to continue putting words into my mouth keep doing it.

But please humour me and quote where I said "He cheated his way all the way to the top" I'd like to see that please. I may be Irish, but I am not always drunk.

so you are agreeing with me, but arguing that I said shit I did not say? Whatever, go smoke another, seriously.
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Re: throwing a game[pending]es

Postby jsnyder748 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:37 pm

nah, I don't care anymore.

Ill go smoke some more.

Didn't mean to offend you Shannon.
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Re: throwing a game[pending]es

Postby a6mzero on Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:24 pm

Shannon Apple wrote:
jsnyder748 wrote:If you truly believe he cheated every bit of the way up to his rank like you suggest then why haven't you made a c and a report for it?

I never said that hahahahaha!

I do know he was busted for being a multi, so yes, he cheated before, but that's only from doing a little search on him on the forums. Anyone can do that. However, that's not the point, this incident was cheating. If you want to continue putting words into my mouth keep doing it.

But please humour me and quote where I said "He cheated his way all the way to the top" I'd like to see that please. I may be Irish, but I am not always drunk.

so you are agreeing with me, but arguing that I said shit I did not say? Whatever, go smoke another, seriously.
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Re: throwing a game[pending]

Postby a6mzero on Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:26 pm

And there u have it all this talk by Kiron about it was just one game i didnt know it was wrong lol. How many points did u rack up playing as a multi on your path to greatness?
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Re: throwing a game[pending]

Postby jsnyder748 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:53 pm

a6mzero wrote:And there u have it all this talk by Kiron about it was just one game i didnt know it was wrong lol. How many points did u rack up playing as a multi on your path to greatness?


Are you talking to me? Im not Kiron.

If I remember right he played a couple of games with a multi. I don't know how many he won but probably not more than 2. So the majority of his points were not using a multi.
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Re: throwing a game[pending]

Postby a6mzero on Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:51 pm

I'm new this site just joined a couple of months ago. I just enjoy playing the game. I dont care for alliances,truces,diplomacy so therefore i will never have a high ranking but i still like to have a fair shot to win a game.I was reading the thread regarding is CC declining and how the site is having trouble retaining new members. Well it doesn't help when a new member plays a game and realizes he never had a shot at winning the game due to the fact other members twist and manipulate the rules in a shady manner. Those kind of actions certainly would discourage someone from ever playing on this site again. In my opinion its like Nba basketball the money takes the joy out of the game.
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Re: throwing a game[pending]

Postby king achilles on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:44 am

Suiciding or game throwing is against the rules but we also take into account what transpired in the game.

In this case, an unusual deal was made by two players and it made one of them to simply throw the game for the other player's benefit which we classify as game throwing. It's a clear violation of the rules. Conqueror or no conqueror status, both have been warned for this action and I really hope this does not happen often (or at all) with other players out there.

We do not delete games just because someone violated a rule, otherwise what's to stop others out there from blatantly messing up the game in order to have the game deleted if that would become a precedent.

Please do note that game throwing does not necessarily mean when someone attacks your big stack and it cost both of you the game then it means there must be some cheating going on. For accusations like the player "should not have attacked you, or he didn't listen to you that he should have attacked the other player who is stronger than you, or it's a 3 player game and you got more attacks than the other player, etc. - we would definitely need more than just that.
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Re: throwing a game[pending]

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:10 am

Am I the only one to see a pattern in their gameplay? Yeah....I have a lot of spare time :)

Game 12405498 - Kiron holds the Objective after xiangwang/Kiron play out the last 3 turns consecutively (K/X/K)
Game 12395303 - Kiron holds the Objective after xiangwang/Kiron play out the last 3 turns consecutively (K/X/K)
Game 12355651 - xiangwang holds the Objective (slate played just 16 secs after X ended turn, so presumably K didn't have time or even need to start turn)
Game 12294310 - Kiron holds the Objective (green played 51 secs after K ended turn, so presumably X didn't have time or even need to start turn)
Game 12056016 - Kiron holds the Objective after xiangwang/Kiron play out the last 3 turns consecutively (K/X/K)
Game 10769124 - Kiron holds the Objective after xiangwang allows him to get Granada as they play consecutive turns in the penultimate round (this is one of my faves - red drops all on the redundant Castile and later writes in chat "Nice yellow, so used to defending spain so lightly that i forget granada could be attacked". Lol, after how many games on this map and knowing exactly what the Objective is! The previous round X cleared the way for K to take Antioch by removing grey from Coris/Edessa. So blatant it's obvious.
Game 10673863 - Kiron holds the Objective after xiangwang in the penultimate round cleared orange off Antioch with a full drop on Coris (and then forted off it), paving the way for Kiron
Game 8572108 - Kiron holds the Objective even tho in the penultimate round xiangwang can see he is holding Vatican and had the cards & stack to take Jerusalem & Antioch
Game 8095651 - xiangwang holds the Objective after taking The Vatican (which Kiron conveniently forted off !! the previous turn)
Game 7484252 - Kiron holds the Objective. In game chat cyan says "2010-08-26 04:57:29 - Jeanne d Arc: you are never willing to attack Kiron red, typical that you almost anytime play together and almost anytime one of you is winning"
Game 7370815 - xiangwang holds the Objective. This is despite Kiron playing the last turn and having a 25 deploy, knowing X had the objective, and being quite capable of hitting Antioch and/or Jerusalem. Instead Kiron just went harmlessly to Malta and let X win.
Game 7306611 - xiangwang holds the Objective after the previous turn Kiron cleared all of cyan away from Jerusalem/Antioch area and then forted away from there (to Nicomedia!)
Game 7306608 - xiangwang holds the Objective. Chat reveals X & K remove all their troops from their mutual borders (neither will attack the other you see, not until it's to take the Objective)
Game 7271383 - xiangwang holds the Objective after a consecutive K & X move the previous round. No attempt to break or take by Kiron despite dropping 18 and being next to Jeruslaem & Antioch (or nearby). Instead he harmlessly hits Arles. The Objective is out of reach for him as Granada is unfeasible and X already has Vatican, so game goes to X.
Game 7210664 - Kiron won the game. From chat (aimed at K & X) "14 02:01:29 - jjleblanc25: you two are definitely cheating"
Game 7120112 - Kiron holds the Objective after xiangwang/Kiron play out the last 3 turns consecutively (K/X/K)
Game 7062062 - xiangwang won the game. Red & blue (X & K) pretty much tag team for most of the game, not attacking each other but methodically taking out the other players.
Game 6907151 - Kiron holds the Objective after xiangwang/Kiron play out the last 4 turns consecutively (X/K/X/K). Antioch left wide open by X, who also conveniently starts his turn immediately in R14 knowing Kiron was there and held the Objective. A player in game chat even asks "So you guys play together?"
Game 6903798 - Kiron holds the Objective after xiangwang/Kiron play out the last 3 turns consecutively (K/X/K)
Game 6852258 - xiangwang holds the Objective. Nice tag team running throughout that game, i.e. target all others and not each other
Game 6844836 - Kiron holds the Objective after xiangwang/Kiron play out the last 3 turns consecutively (K/X/K)

These guys stumbled upon the goose that lays the golden egg: Third Crusade and its Objective. The above games are solely Third Crusade - I haven't even ventured into their Waterloo history together where they would take bonuses and not break them as they switched between last turn & first turn each round - but what is noticeably apparent is the manner in which games are won at the end, and the sequence of turns that lead to those victories.

Who conducted the previous C&A on these guys, Stevie Wonder?
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Re: throwing a game[warned]

Postby king achilles on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:13 am

If you are to pursue a case of secret diplomacy against them, please make a new report with supporting evidence.
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Re: throwing a game[warned]

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:17 am

Evidence is there KA. Try doing your job instead of asking paying customers to do it for you.
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Re: throwing a game[warned]

Postby king achilles on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:21 am

The report is about the game throwing and not about compiling a list of possible violations these two made in other games. Secret diplomacy is different from game throwing or making deciding games. Have a nice and wonderful day cof. Cheer up. ;)
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