Kiron & xiangwang[banned/blocked]sn

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Kiron & xiangwang[banned/blocked]sn

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:40 am

Kiron
xiangwang

The accused are suspected of:

Conducting Secret Diplomacy

Game number(s):

Game 12405498 - Kiron holds the Objective after xiangwang/Kiron play out the last 3 turns consecutively (K/X/K)
Game 12395303 - Kiron holds the Objective after xiangwang/Kiron play out the last 3 turns consecutively (K/X/K)
Game 12355651 - xiangwang holds the Objective (slate played just 16 secs after X ended turn, so presumably K didn't have time or even need to start turn)
Game 12294310 - Kiron holds the Objective (green played 51 secs after K ended turn, so presumably X didn't have time or even need to start turn)
Game 12056016 - Kiron holds the Objective after xiangwang/Kiron play out the last 3 turns consecutively (K/X/K)
Game 10769124 - Kiron holds the Objective after xiangwang allows him to get Granada as they play consecutive turns in the penultimate round (this is one of my faves - red drops all on the redundant Castile and later writes in chat "Nice yellow, so used to defending spain so lightly that i forget granada could be attacked". Lol, after how many games on this map and knowing exactly what the Objective is! The previous round X cleared the way for K to take Antioch by removing grey from Coris/Edessa. So blatant it's obvious.
Game 10673863 - Kiron holds the Objective after xiangwang in the penultimate round cleared orange off Antioch with a full drop on Coris (and then forted off it), paving the way for Kiron
Game 8572108 - Kiron holds the Objective even tho in the penultimate round xiangwang can see he is holding Vatican and had the cards & stack to take Jerusalem & Antioch
Game 8095651 - xiangwang holds the Objective after taking The Vatican (which Kiron conveniently forted off !! the previous turn)
Game 7484252 - Kiron holds the Objective. In game chat cyan says "2010-08-26 04:57:29 - Jeanne d Arc: you are never willing to attack Kiron red, typical that you almost anytime play together and almost anytime one of you is winning"
Game 7370815 - xiangwang holds the Objective. This is despite Kiron playing the last turn and having a 25 deploy, knowing X had the objective, and being quite capable of hitting Antioch and/or Jerusalem. Instead Kiron just went harmlessly to Malta and let X win.
Game 7306611 - xiangwang holds the Objective after the previous turn Kiron cleared all of cyan away from Jerusalem/Antioch area and then forted away from there (to Nicomedia!)
Game 7306608 - xiangwang holds the Objective. Chat reveals X & K remove all their troops from their mutual borders (neither will attack the other you see, not until it's to take the Objective)
Game 7271383 - xiangwang holds the Objective after a consecutive K & X move the previous round. No attempt to break or take by Kiron despite dropping 18 and being next to Jeruslaem & Antioch (or nearby). Instead he harmlessly hits Arles. The Objective is out of reach for him as Granada is unfeasible and X already has Vatican, so game goes to X.
Game 7210664 - Kiron won the game. From chat (aimed at K & X) "14 02:01:29 - jjleblanc25: you two are definitely cheating"
Game 7120112 - Kiron holds the Objective after xiangwang/Kiron play out the last 3 turns consecutively (K/X/K)
Game 7062062 - xiangwang won the game. Red & blue (X & K) pretty much tag team for most of the game, not attacking each other but methodically taking out the other players.
Game 6907151 - Kiron holds the Objective after xiangwang/Kiron play out the last 4 turns consecutively (X/K/X/K). Antioch left wide open by X, who also conveniently starts his turn immediately in R14 knowing Kiron was there and held the Objective. A player in game chat even asks "So you guys play together?"
Game 6903798 - Kiron holds the Objective after xiangwang/Kiron play out the last 3 turns consecutively (K/X/K)
Game 6852258 - xiangwang holds the Objective. Nice tag team running throughout that game, i.e. target all others and not each other
Game 6844836 - Kiron holds the Objective after xiangwang/Kiron play out the last 3 turns consecutively (K/X/K)

These guys stumbled upon the goose that lays the golden egg: Third Crusade and its Objective. The above games are solely Third Crusade - I haven't even ventured into their Waterloo history together where they would take bonuses and not break them as they switched between last turn & first turn each round - but what is noticeably apparent is the manner in which games are won at the end, and the sequence of turns that lead to those victories.

They set-up these 8 player freestyle games and get 6 other players into them. They then spend the initial rounds never targeting one another (but will leave a card spot if necessary, to assist). When one of them is in position to take the objective he will do so, often assisted by a previous move by the accomplice to 'pave the way' to the targets. Then they will play a sequence of turns, usually three but sometimes four, in quick succession so that one of them reaps all the points. They play this way - and share the benefits depending on which one of them has the better position for the objective - and for the most part none of the other players are any the wiser. But look at the logs of all their games and a pattern soon emerges.

It is an alliance from the outset, with nothing said in chat about it. It is also a loophole of the freestyle playing system that two buddies can dovetail their turns to their benefit. None of the other 6 players have this unfair advantage.

These two players (along with others from Kiron's frat house) should not be permitted to play together in games of this nature. The abuse (and rewards they have ill-gained) are all too obvious.
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Re: Kiron & xiangwang

Postby freakns on Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:14 am

he "forgot" to hit Grenada... priceless :lol:

ban them both... infinitive
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Re: Kiron & xiangwang

Postby IR1SH ACE on Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:10 am

good work CoF, I had noticed this going on with not just these two but a few others also "(along with others from Kiron's frat house)" that are floatin around the top of scoreboard.....seems to be a game of pass the Conqueror Title going on.....Im sure xiangwang is next inline

this thing of playin 8 player games with 1/2 RL mates in the game is always going to lead to shady practices... I know form my own experience of playin large standard games with a RL mate that u cant help but do some stuff that u know is not Kosher, especially in games were u both are the highest rank players in the game...it kind of goes like this..

U both know u wont attack each other unless to take card/region bonus, the game progress along the path of buildin troops and takin cards, always make sure nobody else is gettin to much advantage.... the idea is to come down to been the last two in the game and fight it out for the win.... now if things get shitty for one mate and he knows his game is over then he will do what he can to assist his Mate, dont want to lose possible 40-50 points.....

As I said I played a couple games like this with a mate, long time ago.... but they were not freestyle, and it is not guaranteed that one of u will win, but throw in freestyle and 2 mates and well......look at OP

Also myself and Mate only play team games now and have done for long time...... this 8 player Objective freestyle loophole has been going on for a while now and i strongly believe that friends that live together should not be playin freestyle games with other players in them that dont know they never stand a chance, way to easy to manipulate these games
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Re: Kiron & xiangwang

Postby codeblue1018 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:11 am

Nice research but knowing Si, I'm quite certain that there is more to come. :D
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Re: Kiron & xiangwang

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:28 am

codeblue1018 wrote:Nice research but knowing Si, I'm quite certain that there is more to come. :D


Not sure about that mate. Took me 4 hours solid to research that lot. There's always Waterloo, but I'll save that if there's no verdict on this case :D
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Re: Kiron & xiangwang

Postby betiko on Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:38 am

wow didn't realize the thing between these 2 looked that bad! who are the other guys from their frat house?
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Re: Kiron & xiangwang

Postby codeblue1018 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:09 am

I just read Simon's series of events again and the evidence is damning for these two players. I don't know how anyone could try and explain this any other way than It reads; it's blatant cheating IMO. I'd be curious about the Waterloo sets as well although I hear its very time consuming, which I can only imagine. I can foresee a MINIMUM of a block as discipline; anything less would only infer that these tactics are tolerated by this site.
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Re: Kiron & xiangwang

Postby freakns on Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:41 am

IR1SH ACE wrote:this thing of playin 8 player games with 1/2 RL mates in the game is always going to lead to shady practices... I know form my own experience of playin large standard games with a RL mate that u cant help but do some stuff that u know is not Kosher, especially in games were u both are the highest rank players in the game...it kind of goes like this..

whan i play with my RL friends i always want to kill them first!!! and they want to kill me... i feel so unloved now :(
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Re: Kiron & xiangwang

Postby Keefie on Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:55 am

They should abolish the rank of Conquerer.
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Re: Kiron & xiangwang

Postby Shannon Apple on Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:58 am

And the plot thickens...

Same freakns. I feel really unloved too lol.

I have played against friends from outside CC on here and each and every time, I've tried to kill them, or succeeded. Although not RL friends, but friends from the USA that I know from another site. It's part of the craic of playing with those people. Why the hell would you let them win when you can rub their face in it? And of course they wanna kill you because they want the bragging rights. lol.
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Re: Kiron & xiangwang

Postby IR1SH ACE on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:05 am

Shannon Apple wrote:And the plot thickens...

Same freakns. I feel really unloved too lol.

I have played against friends from outside CC on here and each and every time, I've tried to kill them, or succeeded. Although not RL friends, but friends from the USA that I know from another site. It's part of the craic of playing with those people. Why the hell would you let them win when you can rub their face in it? And of course they wanna kill you because they want the bragging rights. lol.


lol...dont get we wrong here, i was introduced to the site by a good friend and at the time we and couple other mates that had all gotten to know each other in Uni started to play on the site...we found it a good way to keep in contact as we were all just finished in Uni,

now back then Rank & Score meant nothing to us and it was all bout braggin rights, needless to say that some of these games ended in very bad blood that would roll over into our real life....eventually 1/2 mates just stopped playin and the rest of us moved over into team games and started to care bout our score and rank, once u start to care bout score & rank then u find urself being not so gunho bout destroyin ur mate in a 6/7/8 man standard game especially when ur both Major and there are a few strippers/cooks in the same match.

there are 3 of us that still play team games a lot for our Clan & Tourneys but we all have our own Standard games that we play solo...
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Re: Kiron & xiangwang

Postby xiangwang on Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:04 am

Chariot of Fire wrote:Kiron
xiangwang

The accused are suspected of:

Conducting Secret Diplomacy

Game number(s):

Game 12405498 - Kiron holds the Objective after xiangwang/Kiron play out the last 3 turns consecutively (K/X/K)
Game 12395303 - Kiron holds the Objective after xiangwang/Kiron play out the last 3 turns consecutively (K/X/K)
Game 12355651 - xiangwang holds the Objective (slate played just 16 secs after X ended turn, so presumably K didn't have time or even need to start turn)
Game 12294310 - Kiron holds the Objective (green played 51 secs after K ended turn, so presumably X didn't have time or even need to start turn)
Game 12056016 - Kiron holds the Objective after xiangwang/Kiron play out the last 3 turns consecutively (K/X/K)
Game 10769124 - Kiron holds the Objective after xiangwang allows him to get Granada as they play consecutive turns in the penultimate round (this is one of my faves - red drops all on the redundant Castile and later writes in chat "Nice yellow, so used to defending spain so lightly that i forget granada could be attacked". Lol, after how many games on this map and knowing exactly what the Objective is! The previous round X cleared the way for K to take Antioch by removing grey from Coris/Edessa. So blatant it's obvious.
Game 10673863 - Kiron holds the Objective after xiangwang in the penultimate round cleared orange off Antioch with a full drop on Coris (and then forted off it), paving the way for Kiron
Game 8572108 - Kiron holds the Objective even tho in the penultimate round xiangwang can see he is holding Vatican and had the cards & stack to take Jerusalem & Antioch
Game 8095651 - xiangwang holds the Objective after taking The Vatican (which Kiron conveniently forted off !! the previous turn)
Game 7484252 - Kiron holds the Objective. In game chat cyan says "2010-08-26 04:57:29 - Jeanne d Arc: you are never willing to attack Kiron red, typical that you almost anytime play together and almost anytime one of you is winning"
Game 7370815 - xiangwang holds the Objective. This is despite Kiron playing the last turn and having a 25 deploy, knowing X had the objective, and being quite capable of hitting Antioch and/or Jerusalem. Instead Kiron just went harmlessly to Malta and let X win.
Game 7306611 - xiangwang holds the Objective after the previous turn Kiron cleared all of cyan away from Jerusalem/Antioch area and then forted away from there (to Nicomedia!)
Game 7306608 - xiangwang holds the Objective. Chat reveals X & K remove all their troops from their mutual borders (neither will attack the other you see, not until it's to take the Objective)
Game 7271383 - xiangwang holds the Objective after a consecutive K & X move the previous round. No attempt to break or take by Kiron despite dropping 18 and being next to Jeruslaem & Antioch (or nearby). Instead he harmlessly hits Arles. The Objective is out of reach for him as Granada is unfeasible and X already has Vatican, so game goes to X.
Game 7210664 - Kiron won the game. From chat (aimed at K & X) "14 02:01:29 - jjleblanc25: you two are definitely cheating"
Game 7120112 - Kiron holds the Objective after xiangwang/Kiron play out the last 3 turns consecutively (K/X/K)
Game 7062062 - xiangwang won the game. Red & blue (X & K) pretty much tag team for most of the game, not attacking each other but methodically taking out the other players.
Game 6907151 - Kiron holds the Objective after xiangwang/Kiron play out the last 4 turns consecutively (X/K/X/K). Antioch left wide open by X, who also conveniently starts his turn immediately in R14 knowing Kiron was there and held the Objective. A player in game chat even asks "So you guys play together?"
Game 6903798 - Kiron holds the Objective after xiangwang/Kiron play out the last 3 turns consecutively (K/X/K)
Game 6852258 - xiangwang holds the Objective. Nice tag team running throughout that game, i.e. target all others and not each other
Game 6844836 - Kiron holds the Objective after xiangwang/Kiron play out the last 3 turns consecutively (K/X/K)

These guys stumbled upon the goose that lays the golden egg: Third Crusade and its Objective. The above games are solely Third Crusade - I haven't even ventured into their Waterloo history together where they would take bonuses and not break them as they switched between last turn & first turn each round - but what is noticeably apparent is the manner in which games are won at the end, and the sequence of turns that lead to those victories.

They set-up these 8 player freestyle games and get 6 other players into them. They then spend the initial rounds never targeting one another (but will leave a card spot if necessary, to assist). When one of them is in position to take the objective he will do so, often assisted by a previous move by the accomplice to 'pave the way' to the targets. Then they will play a sequence of turns, usually three but sometimes four, in quick succession so that one of them reaps all the points. They play this way - and share the benefits depending on which one of them has the better position for the objective - and for the most part none of the other players are any the wiser. But look at the logs of all their games and a pattern soon emerges.

It is an alliance from the outset, with nothing said in chat about it. It is also a loophole of the freestyle playing system that two buddies can dovetail their turns to their benefit. None of the other 6 players have this unfair advantage.

These two players (along with others from Kiron's frat house) should not be permitted to play together in games of this nature. The abuse (and rewards they have ill-gained) are all too obvious.



I think it's been stated a lot of times prior. Not attacking each other is quite normal when A. We announced truces, B. There is a greater threat, C. We both are well fortified that it's pointless to attack each other guaranteeing mutual destruction, or D. we're no where near each other.

Regarding dovetail our turns, yes, it helps that in RL i know when kiron is taking his turn, but people on the site can coordinate that too. There are many games that I seen players do it. To ban two players from playing with each other because they are friends in RL and can coordinate turns easier, well, that's absurd because that is something that the site CANNOT control. To ban every RL friend from playing each other bc they can coordinate turns easiers is absurd and would be detrimental to the site as a whole.

Again every truce we have is ANNOUNCED in chat. We BOTH play to win, we don't need secret diplomacy for that. An honestly, regarding the end of turns K/X/K or X/K/X, we both have greasemonkey that once objective is captured, we just put a weight on the B button and game is as good as won. There was no point in attempting to stop it, so we usually just do the courtsey of ending the game. I have RARELY seen games last when a player has the objectives and don't win the moment someone else start their turn (yes, there is odd cases when I don't have my laptop to spam B, but rarely).
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Re: Kiron & xiangwang

Postby a6mzero on Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:53 am

Damn all i need is a greasemonkey and i can make conquerer.
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Re: Kiron & xiangwang

Postby betiko on Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:54 am

humm coordinating single player freestyle games vs team freestlye games is not really the same thing. You guys might play to win with no arrangement of who between you2 will win, but there is obviously a pact to make your mate win if you see you won't get the victory.
Of course the B button weight is a common trick for freestyle objectives, but the case made by Simon here is not just about that type of actions.
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Re: Kiron & xiangwang

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:02 pm

xiangwang wrote:I think it's been stated a lot of times prior. Not attacking each other is quite normal when A. We announced truces, B. There is a greater threat, C. We both are well fortified that it's pointless to attack each other guaranteeing mutual destruction, or D. we're no where near each other.

Regarding dovetail our turns, yes, it helps that in RL i know when kiron is taking his turn, but people on the site can coordinate that too. There are many games that I seen players do it. To ban two players from playing with each other because they are friends in RL and can coordinate turns easier, well, that's absurd because that is something that the site CANNOT control. To ban every RL friend from playing each other bc they can coordinate turns easiers is absurd and would be detrimental to the site as a whole.

Again every truce we have is ANNOUNCED in chat. We BOTH play to win, we don't need secret diplomacy for that. An honestly, regarding the end of turns K/X/K or X/K/X, we both have greasemonkey that once objective is captured, we just put a weight on the B button and game is as good as won. There was no point in attempting to stop it, so we usually just do the courtsey of ending the game. I have RARELY seen games last when a player has the objectives and don't win the moment someone else start their turn (yes, there is odd cases when I don't have my laptop to spam B, but rarely).


What a lame response really. Just from the game samples above (there are far more) 126 players have lost points due to the allegiance - and here I should use the word conspiracy - that pre-exists between you and Kiron before each game, so let's not talk about what is detrimental to the site eh? You don't join these games together for the fun of each other's company - heck you don't even call each other by name, preferring to use colours to refer to each other to further veil the collusion. Simple fact is you each aim to take the Objective - and here it could be argued there's nothing wrong with that as it's the quickest way to win a game - but where it infringes the rules is that one of you becomes complicit in the other's achievement, i.e. it would not be possible unless aided and abetted by a non-disclosed ally. You effectively play doubles in a singles game, so it goes way beyond a simple 'truce'.

Secret alliance and deliberate game throwing - the evidence is in the logs of the games I've listed.

p.s. they aren't using a script or a weight on the B button as too many seconds elapse between one ending his turn and the 'winner' taking his. They're either sitting side-by-side or on Skype or similar.
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Re: Kiron & xiangwang

Postby MoB Deadly on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:24 pm

Chariot of Fire wrote:p.s. they aren't using a script or a weight on the B button as too many seconds elapse between one ending his turn and the 'winner' taking his. They're either sitting side-by-side or on Skype or similar.


Looking at the games that went K/X/K, it looks like it is a 3-4 second time lapse between X's last turn and K winning the game. Is this longer than usual? I dont play freestyle very often at all.
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Re: Kiron & xiangwang

Postby Qwert on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:24 pm

the more i read, then more i have oppinion that Kiron and xiangwei had create alliance before even games are start,and its look that they have plan,that in each game, they announce alliance so that they can not say that they brake a rules. But when you repeat these in 20-30-40 games,then you can see very good guess what they real plan ,who are build out of Game chat.
These will not be against rules if you play 2-3 times, but play team way in non teams games for 30-40 time for points benefit( i assume its plan to become conqueror in easy way and fast time) are definitly brake of rules.
CC need to build more game rules to prevent these.
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Re: Kiron & xiangwang

Postby jsnyder748 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:26 pm

a6mzero wrote:Damn all i need is a greasemonkey and i can make conquerer.


I thought that too. Its harder than it seems :(
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Re: Kiron & xiangwang

Postby freakns on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:30 pm

jsnyder748 wrote:
a6mzero wrote:Damn all i need is a greasemonkey and i can make conquerer.


I thought that too. Its harder than it seems :(

yes, you also need a friend who has greasemonkey
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Re: Kiron & xiangwang

Postby Chariot of Fire on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:32 pm

A pair of greasy monkeys
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Re: Kiron & xiangwang

Postby freakns on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:39 pm

they play with each other monkey? is that against the rules too?
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Re: Kiron & xiangwang

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:56 pm

xiangwang wrote:Regarding dovetail our turns, yes, it helps that in RL i know when kiron is taking his turn, but people on the site can coordinate that too. There are many games that I seen players do it. To ban two players from playing with each other because they are friends in RL and can coordinate turns easier, well, that's absurd because that is something that the site CANNOT control. To ban every RL friend from playing each other bc they can coordinate turns easiers is absurd and would be detrimental to the site as a whole.


Coordinating when you take your turns, in a non-team game, is secret diplomacy regardless of whether you're doing it on or off the site. Anyone who was coordinating turns without explicitly announcing every single step in game chat would also be in violation of the rules. How can you not see that sitting next to your mate and taking your turns together is secret diplomacy?
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Re: Kiron & xiangwang

Postby Rodion on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:06 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:Coordinating when you take your turns, in a non-team game, is secret diplomacy regardless of whether you're doing it on or off the site. Anyone who was coordinating turns without explicitly announcing every single step in game chat would also be in violation of the rules. How can you not see that sitting next to your mate and taking your turns together is secret diplomacy?


Wait a second.

I can understand that if one roomate says "let's play our freestyle CC turns now".

But the way you're phrasing it, if two roommates are watching TV in the living room and one of them open his notebook and logs into CC without so much as a word being spoken between the two of them, the other is forbidden to do the same or else it would be secret diplomacy?
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Re: Kiron & xiangwang

Postby Bones2484 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:10 pm

Rodion wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:Coordinating when you take your turns, in a non-team game, is secret diplomacy regardless of whether you're doing it on or off the site. Anyone who was coordinating turns without explicitly announcing every single step in game chat would also be in violation of the rules. How can you not see that sitting next to your mate and taking your turns together is secret diplomacy?


Wait a second.

I can understand that if one roomate says "let's play our freestyle CC turns now".

But the way you're phrasing it, if two roommates are watching TV in the living room and one of them open his notebook and logs into CC without so much as a word being spoken between the two of them, the other is forbidden to do the same or else it would be secret diplomacy?


I don't read it that way at all. Mets clearly says "coordinating turns" which implies doing it on purpose.
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Re: Kiron & xiangwang

Postby mc05025 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:32 pm

LOL. First of all they are not roomates.

As I have played many games with both of them I think I know better that anyone how they are playing and in addition I know how to play third crusade freestyle. So from my experience these two players are playing very well and I am not really surprised from their score.

But they do play very friendly to each other. For exmple they are ready to backstub anyone to gain an advandage but never each other. If one can not win he is helping the other one a lot. On the other side I have never notice at my games a clear pass of the game to each other even if it might have happened when I am not in.

At the last game with them they helped each other so much that I told them that they are cheating and I will not play again with both of them at the same time.

But it is completely imposible to provide evidence for two reasons

a) there was fog
b) what they were doing was not extremely obvious. A weak player might have done the same not in purpose but just because he is not playing well. But from my experience of how good their gameplay is I know that when someone couldn't win he was helping the other in purpose and not because he does not know how to play
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