jricart - Secret Diplomacy [warned] BG

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jricart - Secret Diplomacy [warned] BG

Postby chapcrap on Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:55 pm

Accused: jricart

The accused are suspected of: Conducting Secret Diplomacy

Game number(s): Not sure. Here are the two games that they played together:
Comments: I just happened across this because I was going to write on smack on a friend's wall. If you look at the wall of jdbush, jricart wrote this:
you better fort your troops. I need a card spot, or I'll kill 3 to get it. Thx.


Seems like secret diplomacy to me. I don't see anything from jdbush on jricart's wall. I have a screen shot if it's needed.
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby The Voice on Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:15 pm

It's from the first game. Here's the in game chat: 2013-01-16 11:10:08 - jricart: JDBUSH, please fort so I can card.

I imagine this happened first, but the time stamps give the same time.

Now, is telling someone to move for a card spot SD in the first place? I'm not sure. I can't read jricart's mind, but I'm assuming with the clutter of chat typical in royale's, he thought it had a better chance of being seen on his wall (after, of course, disclosing it in game chat).

I suppose it's a moot point because jricart clearly sates his request in the gamechat. It took me all of 5 seconds to find this Chap. I'm very disappointed you thought it wise to present this "case" w/o giving all of the details at your disposal.

I could probably find something that makes you look pretty bad if I present it out of context, but I won't waste my time.
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby jricart on Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:06 pm

Hey Chap:

Im really disappointed that you didn't do your homework before posting this.

First of all, as you can see on the game chat, I asked jdbush on the game chat to fort the troops:

From Game Chat - jricart wrote:2013-01-16 08:10:08 - jricart: JDBUSH, please fort so I can card


He didn't do it, so I thought that since he is freemium, he might not have scripts installed (ChatgLove) and the game is a Battle Royale, so the main window become too long for somebody to scroll all the way down to see the chat. That was the main reason why I walled him.

Secret diplomacy will be if I send him a PM asking for that, but I did it on both the game chat and the wall.

Now, in regards of the second game, I dont see any issues with that. So please clarify why you are referring to Game 11675469?

I thought you know me enough since I been around here for quite a few years now, and I been part of TeamCC for a few more years too. My reputation has been and will be good, and you can ask other players and TeamCC members to confirm that.

I know that sometimes I throw "F-Bombs" as most of the players do, but I will never conduct a secret diplomacy. I dont need to do that to win a game as I have enough experience.

This is my part of the story.
Thank you.

JRT


P.S.: I found some typos and I corrected them, thats the reason of the edit.
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby IcePack on Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:16 pm

I can't speak for chapor why its posted, but could be he missed the in game chat.

I think he refers to both games bcuz it's te two youve played w jd and could be the only two games you were receding to via wall. And if he didn't see chat in either of the games, the report would make sense.

But it does appear to be covered in chat. Like I said, possible mistake on chap part? Can't speak for him though. Just saw this now.
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby jricart on Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:20 pm

IcePack wrote:.....And if he didn't see chat in either of the games, the report would make sense...


Exactly! before making this type of mistakes, you need to do your homework and read the chat!
My reputation is more important than points, rank, winning games or anything else.

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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby IcePack on Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:02 pm

jricart wrote:
IcePack wrote:.....And if he didn't see chat in either of the games, the report would make sense...


Exactly! before making this type of mistakes, you need to do your homework and read the chat!
My reputation is more important than points, rank, winning games or anything else.

JRT


What I meant was, perhaps he read chat but missed the line / your comment. Again, im just speculating. I can't imagine chap wouldn't have checked first.
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby swimmerdude99 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:28 pm

I'm a little confused... How is it Secret diplomacy if it is stated in game chat? As far as I know you can say anything you have backed up in chat so that other people know your intentions? Also is that really even SD? Asking for a card? If a ban comes out of this I would be very surprised and also insanely confused!

Any form of diplomatic discussion between opponents must be posted in the game chat in English or in a language that all opponents understand. Diplomacy includes, but is not limited to: proposing truces, negotiating alliances, and coordinating assaults. Secret diplomacy can be hard to prove, but if you suspect it you should leave the players in question appropriate ratings. If you feel certain about players engaging in secret diplomacy consider reporting them in the Cheating & Abuse Reports forum by posting a new topic.


First off, the first part that I highlighted was definitely complied with. Jricart posted in chat and told him to move for a card. he complied with the need to post in chat if this is counted as diplomacy.

Secondly the second highlighted part explains what some of diplomacy is.
- He didn't propose a truce he is threatening the player to move or he is going to hit the guy and hurt them both because in a BR, a 3 is a lot of troops sometimes.
- This isn't an alliance, its a threat.
- They aren't coordinating assaults.

And how is this cheating anyways? its not like they are teaming up on anyone to hit anyone, he is warning the opponent he is going to hit him and it is public. Also the second game listed has no bearing on this case. This is a very... ummm petty report.
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby king achilles on Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:05 am

Any form of diplomatic discussion between opponents must be posted in the game chat in English or in a language that all opponents understand. Diplomacy includes, but is not limited to: proposing truces, negotiating alliances, and coordinating assaults.

http://www.conquerclub.com/public.php?mode=rules

you better fort your troops. I need a card spot, or I'll kill 3 to get it. Thx.


These kind of talk should only be limited in the game chat. It doesn't say that once you post in the game chat, you can also say the same thing on the wall, in live chat, or anywhere else for that matter. If you only said, please read game chat or something like that, then that is allowed, but not to literally tell/advise him on what to do on his next move. Strictly leave that in the game chat.
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Re: - Secret Diplomacy

Postby deuces wild on Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:40 am

LOOK and Listen if any one needs secret diplomacy in a singles game Then they are not as good as they thing they are only time there should be Diplomacy is when its a team game

The game is 80% luck :D
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby The Voice on Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:55 am

king achilles wrote:Any form of diplomatic discussion between opponents must be posted in the game chat in English or in a language that all opponents understand. Diplomacy includes, but is not limited to: proposing truces, negotiating alliances, and coordinating assaults.

http://www.conquerclub.com/public.php?mode=rules

you better fort your troops. I need a card spot, or I'll kill 3 to get it. Thx.


These kind of talk should only be limited in the game chat. It doesn't say that once you post in the game chat, you can also say the same thing on the wall, in live chat, or anywhere else for that matter. If you only said, please read game chat or something like that, then that is allowed, but not to literally tell/advise him on what to do on his next move. Strictly leave that in the game chat.


Okay, but it doesn't not say that. See what I mean? I won't debate the silliness of this, but I do think a 2nd line stating something akin to "No diplomatic discussion can be made anywhere else" would help clarify this rule. It may seem redundant and perhaps it is, but w/o it, I had no idea reposting what was said in game chat somewhere was disallowed.
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby greenoaks on Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:00 am

king achilles wrote:Any form of diplomatic discussion between opponents must be posted in the game chat in English or in a language that all opponents understand. Diplomacy includes, but is not limited to: proposing truces, negotiating alliances, and coordinating assaults.

http://www.conquerclub.com/public.php?mode=rules

you better fort your troops. I need a card spot, or I'll kill 3 to get it. Thx.


These kind of talk should only be limited in the game chat. It doesn't say that once you post in the game chat, you can also say the same thing on the wall, in live chat, or anywhere else for that matter. If you only said, please read game chat or something like that, then that is allowed, but not to literally tell/advise him on what to do on his next move. Strictly leave that in the game chat.

it also doesn't say you can't post on someone's wall

if what you post on a wall has already been posted in the game's chatbox then it is not a secret and can't be considered Secret Diplomacy.
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby nicestash on Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:01 am

king achilles wrote:Any form of diplomatic discussion between opponents must be posted in the game chat in English or in a language that all opponents understand

This was complied with in the in game chat.


king achilles wrote:
These kind of talk should only be limited in the game chat. It doesn't say that once you post in the game chat, you can also say the same thing on the wall, in live chat, or anywhere else for that matter. If you only said, please read game chat or something like that, then that is allowed, but not to literally tell/advise him on what to do on his next move. Strictly leave that in the game chat.
.
I have read nothing that say you can't also say the same thing on the wall- this type of ruling is more strict than the new rules on Wall Street!
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby darth emperor on Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:41 am

nicestash wrote:
king achilles wrote:
These kind of talk should only be limited in the game chat. It doesn't say that once you post in the game chat, you can also say the same thing on the wall, in live chat, or anywhere else for that matter. If you only said, please read game chat or something like that, then that is allowed, but not to literally tell/advise him on what to do on his next move. Strictly leave that in the game chat.
.
I have read nothing that say you can't also say the same thing on the wall- this type of ruling is more strict than the new rules on Wall Street!

Well, I always understood it the way KA, said. Mostly because I read it somewhere (few times) (probably from KA :lol: )but I can't find it. Anyways, considering that we are talking about a BR, should be considered different....
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby swimmerdude99 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:50 am

darth emperor wrote:
nicestash wrote:
king achilles wrote:
These kind of talk should only be limited in the game chat. It doesn't say that once you post in the game chat, you can also say the same thing on the wall, in live chat, or anywhere else for that matter. If you only said, please read game chat or something like that, then that is allowed, but not to literally tell/advise him on what to do on his next move. Strictly leave that in the game chat.
.
I have read nothing that say you can't also say the same thing on the wall- this type of ruling is more strict than the new rules on Wall Street!

Well, I always understood it the way KA, said. Mostly because I read it somewhere (few times) (probably from KA :lol: )but I can't find it. Anyways, considering that we are talking about a BR, should be considered different....


I think you bring up a good point darth. It is a BR and the chat gets cluttered so that is obviously got something to do with why he posted on the wall of the player. Also as many others have said, the rules don't say you can't post on someone's wall. It just states you must post it in chat. Which he did to a certain extent. Not the same wording obviously, but he did say it in chat already. So it isn't really secret because everyone is able to read it.
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby chapcrap on Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:21 am

Ok, even he posted the exact same thing (which he didn't), allowing things like that on walls is a bad precedent, IMO because then he'll get a response on his wall from someone who doesn't know any better...

In any case, a couple of flaws with what jricart is saying:
jricart wrote:First of all, as you can see on the game chat, I asked jdbush on the game chat to fort the troops:

From Game Chat - jricart wrote:2013-01-16 08:10:08 - jricart: JDBUSH, please fort so I can card

Ok, but that is not the same thing you said on his wall. You threatened an attack on his wall.

jricart wrote:He didn't do it, so I thought that since he is freemium, he might not have scripts installed (ChatgLove) and the game is a Battle Royale, so the main window become too long for somebody to scroll all the way down to see the chat. That was the main reason why I walled him.

First of all, being freemium makes no difference whether or not someone has chatglove. Second of all, he wasn't even freemium then. I know because I'm friends with him in RL and I know he had premium in January. So, there goes your 'main reason.'
jricart wrote:Secret diplomacy will be if I send him a PM asking for that, but I did it on both the game chat and the wall.

You did different things in gamechat and on the wall.
jricart wrote:Now, in regards of the second game, I dont see any issues with that. So please clarify why you are referring to Game 11675469?

I listed both games, because I have no way of knowing which game you were actually referring to on his wall. He probably didn't know what you were talking about either.
jricart wrote:I thought you know me enough since I been around here for quite a few years now, and I been part of TeamCC for a few more years too. My reputation has been and will be good, and you can ask other players and TeamCC members to confirm that.

I know that sometimes I throw "F-Bombs" as most of the players do, but I will never conduct a secret diplomacy. I dont need to do that to win a game as I have enough experience.

I don't have a problem with you as a person and I really don't know your reputation that well. I don't think you have a bad one. If you think most players throw F-bombs, I think I'd like to see some statistics to back that up, but that doesn't have to do with this case, so do what you want with the erroneous information.



The rules say any form of diplomatic discussion has to be in gamechat. That's why I filed. Is breaking the rules ok if it's small? I don't think so. You can call the report petty if you want, but breaking the rules is the same no matter how big or small. There is a punishment scale for it all. You can't just let all the small broken rules float by. The rules are the same for everyone, in every game. Why would this be any different?
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby jricart on Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:52 am

Come on Chap! really?

chapcrap wrote:You threatened an attack on his wall.

Why is that a secret diplomacy? As you said, I threatened him, not asking for any kind of alliance!

chapcrap wrote:You did different things in gamechat and on the wall.

I said pretty much the same thing,

chapcrap wrote:I listed both games, because I have no way of knowing which game you were actually referring to on his wall. He probably didn't know what you were talking about either.

Again, Do your homework the proper way.
From Game Chat 12192207 - jricart wrote:2013-01-16 08:10:08 - jricart: JDBUSH, please fort so I can card
From jdbush wall jricart wrote:on Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:10 am:
you better fort your troops. I need a card spot, or I'll kill 3 to get it. Thx.

Game 11675469 ended on "2012-09-21 11:59:53" as you can see in the log, and Game 12192207 which you are referring as the "Secret Diplomacy Issue" started on "2013-01-15 03:29:12" , so I dont see any connection.



chapcrap wrote: The rules say any form of diplomatic discussion has to be in gamechat. That's why I filed.

I did it as you can see in the game chat. There is no rule against posting on someone else wall.

JRT
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby Koganosi on Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:22 pm

king achilles wrote:Any form of diplomatic discussion between opponents must be posted in the game chat in English or in a language that all opponents understand. Diplomacy includes, but is not limited to: proposing truces, negotiating alliances, and coordinating assaults.

http://www.conquerclub.com/public.php?mode=rules

you better fort your troops. I need a card spot, or I'll kill 3 to get it. Thx.


These kind of talk should only be limited in the game chat. It doesn't say that once you post in the game chat, you can also say the same thing on the wall, in live chat, or anywhere else for that matter. If you only said, please read game chat or something like that, then that is allowed, but not to literally tell/advise him on what to do on his next move. Strictly leave that in the game chat.


Didnt you guys read this post? Like he said game talk on the wall you did, thats for game chat. If you dont think he saw it, "read game chat of game: ..... plx!!!".

swimmerdude99 wrote:I
Any form of diplomatic discussion between opponents must be posted in the game chat in English or in a language that all opponents understand. Diplomacy includes, but is not limited to: proposing truces, negotiating alliances, and coordinating assaults. Secret diplomacy can be hard to prove, but if you suspect it you should leave the players in question appropriate ratings. If you feel certain about players engaging in secret diplomacy consider reporting them in the Cheating & Abuse Reports forum by posting a new topic.


Secondly the second highlighted part explains what some of diplomacy is.
- He didn't propose a truce he is threatening the player to move or he is going to hit the guy and hurt them both because in a BR, a 3 is a lot of troops sometimes.
- This isn't an alliance, its a threat.
- They aren't coordinating assaults.

And how is this cheating anyways? its not like they are teaming up on anyone to hit anyone, he is warning the opponent he is going to hit him and it is public. Also the second game listed has no bearing on this case. This is a very... ummm petty report.


Did you read it? The whole thing? I highlited and made the part of the thingie you I think didnt read crossed.

You should have posted this stuff in game chat and just posted read game chat on the wall. Its a clear case of SD, there was a topic few months ago about the same case. The guy also got warned for it.

To lazy to go through everything.

urs

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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby jricart on Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:28 pm

I did posted on the Game Chat, so there should be no issue. There is no rule against re-posting on the players wall!

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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby Koganosi on Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:40 pm

jricart wrote:I did posted on the Game Chat, so there should be no issue. There is no rule against re-posting on the players wall!

JRT


So wich one of the 2 came first? Its the same time stamp for me.

And anything about the game should be discussed in game chat ONLY!!!

Rule #2: No secret diplomacy

Any form of diplomatic discussion between opponents must be posted in the game chat in English or in a language that all opponents understand.


Or am I mistaken with this? Or are there different rules for Mods, which I am not aware of?

Urs

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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby rishaed on Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:49 pm

I think the cases i've read through where similar things have happened with similar reasonings, got warned noted whatever. The mods here have been pretty constant with this kind of ruling.
aage wrote: Maybe you're right, but since we receive no handlebars from the mod I think we should get some ourselves.

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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby jricart on Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:50 pm

I understand rishaed, but I have not break any rules so far.

Koganosi, FYI this has nothing to do with Mods, and Im not trying to get away just because Im a TeamCC member. If I broke any rule, I'll be fine with any punishment against me. As far as I see, I have NOT break any rule.

Can you tell me where in this site says that it should be discussed ONLY ON GAME CHAT?

I followed rule #2 as I posted on Game Chat First, in English, and when I saw no response from him, I posted on his wall.

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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby Funkyterrance on Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:03 pm

Chapcrap is RIGHT.

Jricart wrote this in the game chat:
2013-01-16 11:10:08 - jricart: JDBUSH, please fort so I can card


And he wrote this on jdbush's wall:
you better fort your troops. I need a card spot, or I'll kill 3 to get it. Thx.

Note the discrepancy between the two. There is also a potentially threatening tone to the wall comment which is absent from the game chat. The wall comment is suggesting intent that jricart will attack JD if he does not fort and the game chat does not show this intent. So the other players are unaware of this diplomacy while jricart and JD are. This is what makes this a definite case of SD. Your message and intent on the wall must be exactly the same as the one in game chat and in this case it obviously isn't.
Chapcrap has found a case of SD and I don't think it's fair for all these people to be trying to brush it off or make Chap look bad for pointing it out. Also, the reputation/site affiliation of a player should not ever be entered into a C&A case for the sake of equality.
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby nicestash on Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:34 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:Chapcrap is RIGHT.

Jricart wrote this in the game chat:
2013-01-16 11:10:08 - jricart: JDBUSH, please fort so I can card


And he wrote this on jdbush's wall:
you better fort your troops. I need a card spot, or I'll kill 3 to get it. Thx.

Note the discrepancy between the two. There is also a potentially threatening tone to the wall comment which is absent from the game chat. The wall comment is suggesting intent that jricart will attack JD if he does not fort and the game chat does not show this intent. So the other players are unaware of this diplomacy while jricart and JD are. This is what makes this a definite case of SD. Your message and intent on the wall must be exactly the same as the one in game chat and in this case it obviously isn't.

Honestly funky. To quote Preston "I really think Funky has gone.... well... Funky".
The rule was put in place in order to ensure that opponents are away of all diplomacy going on. In this case, all diplomacy is very clearly in the game chat. In the business world, if I give a presentation at an investor conference (which is all recorded and put online), and then sit down with an important investor for a 1v1 discussion with one of the investors to answer questions (which is also recorded), I will NOT be accused of insider trading. Jricart has done the exact same thing here. He has posted all of the information on the game chat for all the "investors" (players in game) to see, and then had a 1v1 that WAS STILL VISIBLE for anyone to see who was curious.
Furthermore, I'd like to reiterate that this is a battle royale- who is going to care? I have trouble figuring out where I am and who I can eliminate, much less what other people are doing in the game. With 50 people in 1 game, it's impossible to watch everyone, and diplomacy has a minimal, if any, effect on the game (early on at least).


Funkyterrance wrote:Also, the reputation/site affiliation of a player should not ever be entered into a C&A case for the sake of equality.

In the court of law, people testify for and against your character. If you think that creates inequality, I suggest you bring it up the the Supreme Court of the United States of America. Good luck ;)

Edit: By punishing jricart (as much as normal people who commit secret diplomacy), you are giving reason for players to message each other through pms, not wall posts. Had jricart done this, nobody would've ever cared because as I said earlier: it doesn't matter.
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy [pending] BG

Postby BGtheBrain on Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:54 pm

jricart has been WARNED for secret diplomacy

If you want to post on someones wall "Please read game chat in xxxxxxxxx" that is fine, but thats as far as you can go, anything further will be considered secret diplomacy.
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy [warned] BG

Postby EagleofGreenErth on Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:58 pm

>_>
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