jricart - Secret Diplomacy [warned] BG

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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby jricart on Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:52 am

Come on Chap! really?

chapcrap wrote:You threatened an attack on his wall.

Why is that a secret diplomacy? As you said, I threatened him, not asking for any kind of alliance!

chapcrap wrote:You did different things in gamechat and on the wall.

I said pretty much the same thing,

chapcrap wrote:I listed both games, because I have no way of knowing which game you were actually referring to on his wall. He probably didn't know what you were talking about either.

Again, Do your homework the proper way.
From Game Chat 12192207 - jricart wrote:2013-01-16 08:10:08 - jricart: JDBUSH, please fort so I can card
From jdbush wall jricart wrote:on Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:10 am:
you better fort your troops. I need a card spot, or I'll kill 3 to get it. Thx.

Game 11675469 ended on "2012-09-21 11:59:53" as you can see in the log, and Game 12192207 which you are referring as the "Secret Diplomacy Issue" started on "2013-01-15 03:29:12" , so I dont see any connection.



chapcrap wrote: The rules say any form of diplomatic discussion has to be in gamechat. That's why I filed.

I did it as you can see in the game chat. There is no rule against posting on someone else wall.

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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby Koganosi on Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:22 pm

king achilles wrote:Any form of diplomatic discussion between opponents must be posted in the game chat in English or in a language that all opponents understand. Diplomacy includes, but is not limited to: proposing truces, negotiating alliances, and coordinating assaults.

http://www.conquerclub.com/public.php?mode=rules

you better fort your troops. I need a card spot, or I'll kill 3 to get it. Thx.


These kind of talk should only be limited in the game chat. It doesn't say that once you post in the game chat, you can also say the same thing on the wall, in live chat, or anywhere else for that matter. If you only said, please read game chat or something like that, then that is allowed, but not to literally tell/advise him on what to do on his next move. Strictly leave that in the game chat.


Didnt you guys read this post? Like he said game talk on the wall you did, thats for game chat. If you dont think he saw it, "read game chat of game: ..... plx!!!".

swimmerdude99 wrote:I
Any form of diplomatic discussion between opponents must be posted in the game chat in English or in a language that all opponents understand. Diplomacy includes, but is not limited to: proposing truces, negotiating alliances, and coordinating assaults. Secret diplomacy can be hard to prove, but if you suspect it you should leave the players in question appropriate ratings. If you feel certain about players engaging in secret diplomacy consider reporting them in the Cheating & Abuse Reports forum by posting a new topic.


Secondly the second highlighted part explains what some of diplomacy is.
- He didn't propose a truce he is threatening the player to move or he is going to hit the guy and hurt them both because in a BR, a 3 is a lot of troops sometimes.
- This isn't an alliance, its a threat.
- They aren't coordinating assaults.

And how is this cheating anyways? its not like they are teaming up on anyone to hit anyone, he is warning the opponent he is going to hit him and it is public. Also the second game listed has no bearing on this case. This is a very... ummm petty report.


Did you read it? The whole thing? I highlited and made the part of the thingie you I think didnt read crossed.

You should have posted this stuff in game chat and just posted read game chat on the wall. Its a clear case of SD, there was a topic few months ago about the same case. The guy also got warned for it.

To lazy to go through everything.

urs

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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby jricart on Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:28 pm

I did posted on the Game Chat, so there should be no issue. There is no rule against re-posting on the players wall!

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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby Koganosi on Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:40 pm

jricart wrote:I did posted on the Game Chat, so there should be no issue. There is no rule against re-posting on the players wall!

JRT


So wich one of the 2 came first? Its the same time stamp for me.

And anything about the game should be discussed in game chat ONLY!!!

Rule #2: No secret diplomacy

Any form of diplomatic discussion between opponents must be posted in the game chat in English or in a language that all opponents understand.


Or am I mistaken with this? Or are there different rules for Mods, which I am not aware of?

Urs

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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby rishaed on Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:49 pm

I think the cases i've read through where similar things have happened with similar reasonings, got warned noted whatever. The mods here have been pretty constant with this kind of ruling.
aage wrote: Maybe you're right, but since we receive no handlebars from the mod I think we should get some ourselves.

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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby jricart on Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:50 pm

I understand rishaed, but I have not break any rules so far.

Koganosi, FYI this has nothing to do with Mods, and Im not trying to get away just because Im a TeamCC member. If I broke any rule, I'll be fine with any punishment against me. As far as I see, I have NOT break any rule.

Can you tell me where in this site says that it should be discussed ONLY ON GAME CHAT?

I followed rule #2 as I posted on Game Chat First, in English, and when I saw no response from him, I posted on his wall.

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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby Funkyterrance on Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:03 pm

Chapcrap is RIGHT.

Jricart wrote this in the game chat:
2013-01-16 11:10:08 - jricart: JDBUSH, please fort so I can card


And he wrote this on jdbush's wall:
you better fort your troops. I need a card spot, or I'll kill 3 to get it. Thx.

Note the discrepancy between the two. There is also a potentially threatening tone to the wall comment which is absent from the game chat. The wall comment is suggesting intent that jricart will attack JD if he does not fort and the game chat does not show this intent. So the other players are unaware of this diplomacy while jricart and JD are. This is what makes this a definite case of SD. Your message and intent on the wall must be exactly the same as the one in game chat and in this case it obviously isn't.
Chapcrap has found a case of SD and I don't think it's fair for all these people to be trying to brush it off or make Chap look bad for pointing it out. Also, the reputation/site affiliation of a player should not ever be entered into a C&A case for the sake of equality.
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy

Postby nicestash on Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:34 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:Chapcrap is RIGHT.

Jricart wrote this in the game chat:
2013-01-16 11:10:08 - jricart: JDBUSH, please fort so I can card


And he wrote this on jdbush's wall:
you better fort your troops. I need a card spot, or I'll kill 3 to get it. Thx.

Note the discrepancy between the two. There is also a potentially threatening tone to the wall comment which is absent from the game chat. The wall comment is suggesting intent that jricart will attack JD if he does not fort and the game chat does not show this intent. So the other players are unaware of this diplomacy while jricart and JD are. This is what makes this a definite case of SD. Your message and intent on the wall must be exactly the same as the one in game chat and in this case it obviously isn't.

Honestly funky. To quote Preston "I really think Funky has gone.... well... Funky".
The rule was put in place in order to ensure that opponents are away of all diplomacy going on. In this case, all diplomacy is very clearly in the game chat. In the business world, if I give a presentation at an investor conference (which is all recorded and put online), and then sit down with an important investor for a 1v1 discussion with one of the investors to answer questions (which is also recorded), I will NOT be accused of insider trading. Jricart has done the exact same thing here. He has posted all of the information on the game chat for all the "investors" (players in game) to see, and then had a 1v1 that WAS STILL VISIBLE for anyone to see who was curious.
Furthermore, I'd like to reiterate that this is a battle royale- who is going to care? I have trouble figuring out where I am and who I can eliminate, much less what other people are doing in the game. With 50 people in 1 game, it's impossible to watch everyone, and diplomacy has a minimal, if any, effect on the game (early on at least).


Funkyterrance wrote:Also, the reputation/site affiliation of a player should not ever be entered into a C&A case for the sake of equality.

In the court of law, people testify for and against your character. If you think that creates inequality, I suggest you bring it up the the Supreme Court of the United States of America. Good luck ;)

Edit: By punishing jricart (as much as normal people who commit secret diplomacy), you are giving reason for players to message each other through pms, not wall posts. Had jricart done this, nobody would've ever cared because as I said earlier: it doesn't matter.
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy [pending] BG

Postby BGtheBrain on Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:54 pm

jricart has been WARNED for secret diplomacy

If you want to post on someones wall "Please read game chat in xxxxxxxxx" that is fine, but thats as far as you can go, anything further will be considered secret diplomacy.
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy [warned] BG

Postby EagleofGreenErth on Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:58 pm

>_>
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy [pending] BG

Postby greenoaks on Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:00 pm

BGtheBrain wrote:jricart has been WARNED for secret diplomacy

If you want to post on someones wall "Please read game chat in xxxxxxxxx" that is fine, but thats as far as you can go, anything further will be considered secret diplomacy.

you may have got this right, may but your understanding of the word "secret" is a problem.

can we get a ruling from rds on his interpretation of what a secret is?
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy [pending] BG

Postby nicestash on Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:03 pm

greenoaks wrote:
BGtheBrain wrote:jricart has been WARNED for secret diplomacy

If you want to post on someones wall "Please read game chat in xxxxxxxxx" that is fine, but thats as far as you can go, anything further will be considered secret diplomacy.

you may have got this right, may but your understanding of the word "secret" is a problem.

can we get a ruling from rds on his interpretation of what a secret is?

Yes please, this seems silly!
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy [warned] BG

Postby 40kguy on Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:10 pm

We are looking at this all wrong

the point of this site is to have fun and nothing is more fun than wining. Mods are here to make it fair and fun for everyone, because if someones cheating its not fun.

We were getting to the point were we were debating about the ruling over a sentence.

At the end of the day we need to ask ourselves "Did he make the game less fun for everyone else?" "Did he do something that wasn't fair?"

The answer to both questions is no. He posted in game chat, so everyone knew his plan (making it fair).
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy [pending] BG

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:26 pm

greenoaks wrote:
BGtheBrain wrote:jricart has been WARNED for secret diplomacy

If you want to post on someones wall "Please read game chat in xxxxxxxxx" that is fine, but thats as far as you can go, anything further will be considered secret diplomacy.

you may have got this right, may but your understanding of the word "secret" is a problem.

can we get a ruling from rds on his interpretation of what a secret is?


rds is the community manager. king achilles is the ultimate arbiter of rules violations, and he has posted his comments. They make sense, as the rule is quite clear. If people insist that we should make it "must only be posted in game chat" because they don't think the sentence is yet clear enough, we should do this. Nevertheless, it is grasping at straws. The rule says diplomatic discussion must be posted in game chat. jricart posted diplomatic discussion somewhere other than game chat. Open and shut.

And as for whether posting on someone's wall should be considered "secret" diplomacy, that's not relevant to this particular case.
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy [pending] BG

Postby TheForgivenOne on Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:36 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
greenoaks wrote:
BGtheBrain wrote:jricart has been WARNED for secret diplomacy

If you want to post on someones wall "Please read game chat in xxxxxxxxx" that is fine, but thats as far as you can go, anything further will be considered secret diplomacy.

you may have got this right, may but your understanding of the word "secret" is a problem.

can we get a ruling from rds on his interpretation of what a secret is?


rds is the community manager. king achilles is the ultimate arbiter of rules violations, and he has posted his comments. They make sense, as the rule is quite clear. If people insist that we should make it "must only be posted in game chat" because they don't think the sentence is yet clear enough, we should do this. Nevertheless, it is grasping at straws. The rule says diplomatic discussion must be posted in game chat. jricart posted diplomatic discussion somewhere other than game chat. Open and shut.

And as for whether posting on someone's wall should be considered "secret" diplomacy, that's not relevant to this particular case.


Seems people are always going to try for the loophole.
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy [warned] BG

Postby SaMejoHn on Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:07 pm

Instead of accusing people of exploiting loopholes..why don't you fix it? This can easily be fixed by making small tweak/addition to rule number 2. If this is sd then Im guilty of sd as well (just like many others) :lol: ...Also this is just so silly... first of all chap, get a life. 2nd you guys still haven't answered where the "secret" in secret diplomacy is applicable. I generally like to just read these things but you guys got me so passionate I'm wasting time writing. well done
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy [pending] BG

Postby swimmerdude99 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:49 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
greenoaks wrote:
BGtheBrain wrote:jricart has been WARNED for secret diplomacy

If you want to post on someones wall "Please read game chat in xxxxxxxxx" that is fine, but thats as far as you can go, anything further will be considered secret diplomacy.

you may have got this right, may but your understanding of the word "secret" is a problem.

can we get a ruling from rds on his interpretation of what a secret is?


rds is the community manager. king achilles is the ultimate arbiter of rules violations, and he has posted his comments. They make sense, as the rule is quite clear. If people insist that we should make it "must only be posted in game chat" because they don't think the sentence is yet clear enough, we should do this. Nevertheless, it is grasping at straws. The rule says diplomatic discussion must be posted in game chat. jricart posted diplomatic discussion somewhere other than game chat. Open and shut.

And as for whether posting on someone's wall should be considered "secret" diplomacy, that's not relevant to this particular case.

It needs to be stated somewhere in the rules that you may NOT POST on someones wall with game discussion and that all you can say is "Check the chat" Its not stated anywhere. If people haven't read this case then they won't know that rule, imo that is unfair.
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy [warned] BG

Postby Swifte on Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:26 pm

I don't get it. What's not clear about: "Any form of diplomatic discussion between opponents must be posted in the game chat in English or in a language that all opponents understand."

"See chat in this game, please" - no diplomatic content.

"move those three armies or i'm going to kill them." - diplomatic - should be in game only.

It's all covered by the rule.
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy [warned] BG

Postby jricart on Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:11 pm

Whatever!
This is one of the reasons CC sucks sometimes, its not democratic, and the leaders WANTS YOU to interpret the things the way they want, PERIOD.
There is no rule against posting on a wall. I posted on the chat and to be redundant I re-posted on his wall.

I'll accept the warning and try to stay away from this type of stupid discussions by following the CC Unclear rules!

JRT
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy [pending] BG

Postby greenoaks on Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:20 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
greenoaks wrote:
BGtheBrain wrote:jricart has been WARNED for secret diplomacy

If you want to post on someones wall "Please read game chat in xxxxxxxxx" that is fine, but thats as far as you can go, anything further will be considered secret diplomacy.

you may have got this right, may but your understanding of the word "secret" is a problem.

can we get a ruling from rds on his interpretation of what a secret is?


rds is the community manager. king achilles is the ultimate arbiter of rules violations, and he has posted his comments. They make sense, as the rule is quite clear. If people insist that we should make it "must only be posted in game chat" because they don't think the sentence is yet clear enough, we should do this. Nevertheless, it is grasping at straws. The rule says diplomatic discussion must be posted in game chat. jricart posted diplomatic discussion somewhere other than game chat. Open and shut.

And as for whether posting on someone's wall should be considered "secret" diplomacy, that's not relevant to this particular case.

he abided by the rules by posting in gamechat. Diplomacy is not forbidden, Secret Displomacy is and it is not a secret if it is posted in chat for all to see.

how hard is it too make rulings based on the current rules & start a discussion thread to determine what the community would like to change them to.
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy [warned] BG

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:27 pm

Clear cheating.
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy [warned] BG

Postby Funkyterrance on Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:29 pm

nicestash wrote:Honestly funky. To quote Preston "I really think Funky has gone.... well... Funky".
The rule was put in place in order to ensure that opponents are away of all diplomacy going on. In this case, all diplomacy is very clearly in the game chat. In the business world, if I give a presentation at an investor conference (which is all recorded and put online), and then sit down with an important investor for a 1v1 discussion with one of the investors to answer questions (which is also recorded), I will NOT be accused of insider trading. Jricart has done the exact same thing here. He has posted all of the information on the game chat for all the "investors" (players in game) to see, and then had a 1v1 that WAS STILL VISIBLE for anyone to see who was curious.
Furthermore, I'd like to reiterate that this is a battle royale- who is going to care? I have trouble figuring out where I am and who I can eliminate, much less what other people are doing in the game. With 50 people in 1 game, it's impossible to watch everyone, and diplomacy has a minimal, if any, effect on the game (early on at least).


Funkyterrance wrote:Also, the reputation/site affiliation of a player should not ever be entered into a C&A case for the sake of equality.

In the court of law, people testify for and against your character. If you think that creates inequality, I suggest you bring it up the the Supreme Court of the United States of America. Good luck ;)

Edit: By punishing jricart (as much as normal people who commit secret diplomacy), you are giving reason for players to message each other through pms, not wall posts. Had jricart done this, nobody would've ever cared because as I said earlier: it doesn't matter.

Since when is CC anything like "real life"? In real life I can be a bigot till the cows come home and nobody can do anything about it. Fortunately, we have set rules on cc that get upheld.
It sounds like you are actually suggesting that it is now the burden of the other players in any game to make sure people aren't using secret diplomacy? That's preposterous.
My earlier explanation showing SD as understood by the rules is using perfectly sound logic and there's nothing "funky" about it so you can give that borrowed quote back to whoever you stole it from.
jricart wrote:Whatever!
This is one of the reasons CC sucks sometimes, its not democratic, and the leaders WANTS YOU to interpret the things the way they want, PERIOD.
There is no rule against posting on a wall. I posted on the chat and to be redundant I re-posted on his wall.

I'll accept the warning and try to stay away from this type of stupid discussions by following the CC Unclear rules!

JRT

Dude, just take your medicine already and accept that you screwed up.
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy [warned] BG

Postby qwertylpc on Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:51 pm

clear cheating and secret diplomacy, i think the penalty was way to lenient, ask David Stern for a better one. I'm thinking $25k fine, 2 years in jail without parole, and a website perma-ban
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy [pending] BG

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:53 pm

swimmerdude99 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
greenoaks wrote:
BGtheBrain wrote:jricart has been WARNED for secret diplomacy

If you want to post on someones wall "Please read game chat in xxxxxxxxx" that is fine, but thats as far as you can go, anything further will be considered secret diplomacy.

you may have got this right, may but your understanding of the word "secret" is a problem.

can we get a ruling from rds on his interpretation of what a secret is?


rds is the community manager. king achilles is the ultimate arbiter of rules violations, and he has posted his comments. They make sense, as the rule is quite clear. If people insist that we should make it "must only be posted in game chat" because they don't think the sentence is yet clear enough, we should do this. Nevertheless, it is grasping at straws. The rule says diplomatic discussion must be posted in game chat. jricart posted diplomatic discussion somewhere other than game chat. Open and shut.

And as for whether posting on someone's wall should be considered "secret" diplomacy, that's not relevant to this particular case.

It needs to be stated somewhere in the rules that you may NOT POST on someones wall with game discussion and that all you can say is "Check the chat" Its not stated anywhere. If people haven't read this case then they won't know that rule, imo that is unfair.


Any reasonable reading of the rule should leave no doubt that posting diplomatic comments on someone's wall is a rule violation. Should we also say that people can't say diplomatic things in private message, or via Skype, or over e-mail? The list of ways that you can't discuss these things with people is quite long. We only need one rule that describes the one way you can discuss with people.
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Re: jricart - Secret Diplomacy [warned] BG

Postby BGtheBrain on Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:56 pm

If you guys would like to discuss having the wording of the rule changed, please head to the appropriate forum.

Thanks
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