Conquer Club

How to enforce the rules?

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How to enforce the rules?

Postby lackattack on Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:36 pm

The rules are important to me because they serve to create a positive player experience. If players feel cheated too often, they'll stop playing, and that is obviously a Bad Thing.

Unfortunately, investigating and dealing with cheaters is time consuming and difficult. Accusations arrive via this forum or via the contact form and I can only find time to investigate some of them.

Using public information in the games and non-public information (such as the email address and login history) I attempt to find evidence that Rule #1 or Rule #2 has been violated. If so, I send an email warning and ban the accounts from playing in the same game.

Too often the evidence is inconclusive and I don't know what to do. Two roomates may play from the same computer one after another. They may seem like multis but they are not. Are they collaborating offline? Who's to say? And if they do collaborate offline but are teammates in a doubles game, is that against the rules? Of course, players kilometers apart can make a secret alliance, but it's hard to tell if that suspiciously undefended border isn't by accident or by strategy.

Starting next month I'd like to develop a new fair play system with these characteristics:
    It will allow me to focus on improving the game instead of enforcing the rules.

    It will do something useful in situations where there is suspicion but the evidence is not clear.

    It will measure negative player experiences and use that as evidence.
Here's what I have in mind and I'd love to get the community's feedback:
    A complaint form. Use it to file a complaint on other players, specifying the nature of the accusation (e.g. Rule #1 or Rule #2) and providing evidence (e.g. game numbers). It will automatically send a notice to the accused and go on their record. I hope this will be enough to stop some first time cheaters who may be ingnorant of the rules. The form will not be anonymous and there will have to be limits in place to prevent abusive complaints.

    A fair play rating, so that you can tell if your opponent has many complaints or few, kinda like the stars on eBay.

    A disciplinary committee. A handfull of trusted premium players will investigate players with enough complaints filed against them and decide on corrective action. I will provide the committee members with tools to help their investigation.

How do you think we can make Conquer Club organically self-enforcing?
Last edited by lackattack on Fri May 26, 2006 8:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby SprCobra on Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:49 pm

Something like this could be implemented:
Accouts with the same ip should not be able to take a turn in one game twice unless its the same account with 15-30 mins

people with multis probaly cant be bothered waiting 15-30 minuts to cheat(unless they are evry dedicated but they rpobaly wont be)that would probaly reduce the number of multis

EDIT:The stars on ebay arent very effective once a person with 100% fiarnedd rating thing cheated someone on a deal
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Postby Famous Agent on Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:06 pm

Spr I'm not really sure if this what you are saying but making it so that two acounts with the same ISP cannot take a turn within 15 minutes of eachother is extremely unfair. There are many people at my school who play on the same ISP number and I'm sure that it is the same with many other people. Making such a rule would be extremely unfair and NTM pointless.
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Postby BigBadBob on Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:13 pm

Famous - Spr said "in one game" which does make sense I believe - I have 5 people on one IP and we typically log in together / one after the other....we have made a pact to NEVER play in the same game, so there should never be a problem with our situation and the fix SPR mentioned would not apply as we are not abusing the system.....you and your friends perhaps shouldn't be playing in the same individual games anyhow as you must be discussing the game and its options outside of the chat board, which is essentially against the rules, especially if you are conspiring....

There's my 2 cents...now I'm broke.
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Postby Famous Agent on Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:27 pm

Even so it would still be unfair. Many times we play against each other.
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Postby madeinchinain85 on Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:15 pm

You might want to consider finding moderators or the like to help you weed through all those complaints. I'm sure that kind of stuff is less tech intensive than others (able to find more capable people to help you) and I'm sure you can find a few volenteer's on this site that will help you do it (not me though :-p).
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Postby max is gr8 on Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:46 am

Lack even though I'm not a premium member can i be on the comitee I'm only 1/2 of what you want as I'm not a premium member :cry: But I am trustworthy. Unless sum1 calls me names bcoz i'm in a wheelchair
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Postby moz976 on Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:14 am

Sounds like a great idea Lack I'm sure complaints can get over whellming and we need you working on improving the site not catching cheaters.
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Postby SprCobra on Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:53 am

Famous Agent wrote:Spr I'm not really sure if this what you are saying but making it so that two acounts with the same ISP cannot take a turn within 15 minutes of eachother is extremely unfair. There are many people at my school who play on the same ISP number and I'm sure that it is the same with many other people. Making such a rule would be extremely unfair and NTM pointless.

I meant you can take turn everywhere you want but two accounts from one IP cannot take a turn within 15 mins of each to disencourage zerging(except maybe in doubles)
it was hard to explain
Actually proxys could really mess people up with that fix(unless ip scanner reads last numebrs of ip not first but i doubt that)
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Re: How to enforce the rules?

Postby mastersneeze on Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:58 pm

lackattack wrote:Here's what I have in mind and I'd love to get the community's feedback:
    A complaint form. Use it to file a complaint on other players, specifying the nature of the accusation (e.g. Rule #1 or Rule #2) and providing evidence (e.g. game numbers). It will automatically send a notice to the accused and go on their record. I hope this will be enough to stop some first time cheaters who may be ingnorant of the rules. The form will not be anonymous and there will have to be limits in place to prevent abusive complaints.

This system seems like a good idea but can be problematic. Will the accusation be public (like in the eBay feedback system)? If so, will the accused be allowed to publicly respond? Can accusations be cleared from an account upon review? Will there be an accusation history (once again, similar to eBay feedback)? I think there should be a minimum number of games or a minimum rank (or both) to file an accusation. This hinders a user from creating a "grief" account (although this can still be done but it would take more investment on the part of the griefer in terms of time.)

A fair play rating, so that you can tell if your component has many complaints or few, kinda like the stars on eBay.

I definitely think community ratings can be very beneficial and much thought should be given to how they are composed. Deadbeat records should go into this rating, as well as some metric based on accusations in the last month, and to a lesser degree 90 days, and to an even lesser degree since the account was created.

A disciplinary committee. A handfull of trusted premium players will investigate players with enough complaints filed against them and decide on corrective action. I will provide the committee members with tools to help their investigation.

I am highly opposed to disciplinary committees. Philosophically, premium players do not have enough invested in conquerclub.com to act completely objectively, as Lack does. Lack has too much invested to act selfishly in disciplining players. A committee member however if he/she is deemed (by Lack most likely) to be acting selfishly/arbitrarily too often, then this person will most likely only be kicked from the committee, and rarely, might be banned from the site (but this is drastic since they *are* a paying subscriber). Power must be balanced with responsibility and accountability and I just don't see this happening unless these premium subscribers also happen to be very close friends of Lack and really care about his image and business matters.

How do you think we can make Conquer Club organically self-enforcing?


Here is my "original" idea to add to the mix. Add social networking as a component to this site (like myspace.com). Add buddy lists, ignore lists, and player ratings to build a stronger feeling of community. If I could make a game that only people on my buddy list could join or only people of certain rating could join, my experience would be much improved. Also, it would be beneficial to see a player in the community and see what everyone in my network of friends thinks of this guy.. For example, maybe I've had no problems with a player, but about half of my friends have filed an accusation with him.. Chances are, I don't want to join any game this player is a part of, and I don't him him/her joining my games.

I'll stop at that for now.
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How to do this?

Postby Scarus on Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:25 pm

Sounds like you're on the right track lack. I've been involved with administrating online gaming groups for several years and it's definitely a learn as you go job. What is soooooo amazing for me is that there is always, always, always, drama.

One of the big problems at this site is that everyone automatically plays for rank so there is a big incentive for abuse.

I've always just played with friends and friends of friends, and never worried about rank. However, here, even I check my ranking and find that I start to get anxious if I lose a few games in a row....lol

I definitely think you do need help. It also helps to put the disciplinary decisions on someone else so that you personally don't have to take the heat when bad decisions are made, (and there will be some bad ones...lol).

The only constructive thing I really have to add is that I think that you should consider banning people playing with the same connection from playing in the same game unless it is a private game. This would cut out a lot of the nonsense with people using multi personas in the same game to cheat. It also would give all the college guys and such a chance to keep playing their friends as long as one of them could pony up $20 for a membership.

This type of thing has been done on other ladders and I think this would instantly eliminate at least half the bs that's going on here.

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Postby TDK on Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:43 pm

What is soooooo amazing for me is that there is always, always, always, drama.


Too true. I think it would probably be better to rely on good ol' fashioned peer pressure than appoint a special group of people to hand out punishments.

Then again I haven't gone up against any really bad cheaters yet. :wink:
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Postby Tr0y on Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:11 am

I like the ebay rating system idea.
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Re: How to do this?

Postby togura on Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:08 am

Scarus wrote:
The only constructive thing I really have to add is that I think that you should consider banning people playing with the same connection from playing in the same game unless it is a private game. This would cut out a lot of the nonsense with people using multi personas in the same game to cheat. It also would give all the college guys and such a chance to keep playing their friends as long as one of them could pony up $20 for a membership.

Scarus


For my tuppence-worth, this is an incredibly sensible idea. I am for the total banning of multiple players with identical IPs in *public* games for the following reasons:

    Even if the players are playing on separate computers via a router (computer labs/home nets), they are going to be in tight collaboration, which is almost never declared (and hence against the rules).

    Banning identical IPs will at a stroke eliminate the loathsome practise of one player creating multiple accounts and then playing both accounts in a game.

    Trust in, and respect of, the scoring system of ConquerClub is undermined when the general playing population believes results can be manipulated via game-rigging.


So yes, please, ban identical IPs from *public* games. It will make cheating much harder physically to accomplish, ergo it will cut down on the cheating accusations, which has got to be a good thing for you.
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Postby YP_Legend on Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:16 am

:shock: If you could reduce this problem 40 - 50% or so as Scarus has outlined, that is an awful big chunk of potential grief severed from the site you cant hardly overlook, to make this an easy, smoothe & working process. Stars as on ebay can be as good as they are bad & vica-vesa & can get complicated down the road with time. Discipline groups ect. can get messy & lead to harmful hateful forum content, that quite frankly turns many other people off & sends them packing, or just creates other hidden bs to emerge some day down the road on its own. If this big a chunk of the probs can be solved by doing connection restriction discussed, i think a community elected Umbudsman could handle the rest of it with your special tools lack, & do the complaint taking, investigating, reporting & filing of unbiased info in a very detailed & complete report for you to review weekly or whatever & do as neccissary for implementation of any punishments needed......Srry here lack.......but thats why you are getting the big bucks,as you be the MAN. With a person doing the footwork for you, chosen by the community on say a 3 mo basis, by a simple vote using your poll feature just might suffice. ( if you need more advice or input you feel for disciplinary actions on select cases you could call for an advisory council for a review & recommendation to you, then disband it afterwords.)Maybe you want the premiums for this type of position, & allow everyone at CC to vote, or do it by a nomination process, i dunno, but i think with a little work & polish this idea could run itself, be simple & accomplish the main objective. ===> Get rid of the burden that is on lack created by all this............Just some new thoughts to ponder at...........

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Postby hotgun on Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:16 pm

madeinchinain85 wrote:You might want to consider finding moderators or the like to help you weed through all those complaints. I'm sure that kind of stuff is less tech intensive than others (able to find more capable people to help you) and I'm sure you can find a few volenteer's on this site that will help you do it (not me though :-p).



I have a lot of free time... and I am hopfuley getting a member ship soon ...

And I Am good at finding cheaters :D

So I will be a mod to help you out if you want
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Postby togura on Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:37 pm

oh wow - a brainwave. in order to prevent bad blood, if you don't want to go down the route of *enforcing* a same-IP ban, why don't you give people the option of banning identical IPs from games that they create? i want to be able to specify that every player in my game is playing off a different address.

i've been reading over cheating allegations this last couple of days - players such as "seth" and "leighcifer", "icanfly" and "youcanfly", and *especially* "jesus christ" and "judas iscariot", and it's so obvious tha players playing off the same IP address are causing huge bad blood and potentially skewing the scoring system.

anyway, just a thought.
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Postby max is gr8 on Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:59 pm

But in egsample me n my sis used to play on the same P.c nd the school one is the same and a few of us use it. That is why I.P blocker shouldn't be used but good idea.
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Postby Baker89 on Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:55 am

My thoughts on this...

I, as you can see, am a new member to Conquer Club.

Once I joined I thought this was a really great site and suggested my brother join. We use the same computer and therefore the same IP.

If something like what some people are suggesting comes in I or my brother would be unable to play.

I don't like the idea of the complaint thing going on a record either. If someone gets peeved with you because you beat them in a game they might go and put in a report against you for no good reason!

However, as a webmaster myself, I understand some sort of control of real cheaters would have to come in. However, what has been suggested so far I think is ineffective.

I also think that financial members are not free from bias, as is the human nature.

Thats just my thoughts on the issue.

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BAD IDEA

Postby Blitzkreig on Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:35 pm

Ok, the whole group of trusted advisors thing wouldn't work because it would be too much power for the people to handle, there is little or no evidence in a case, and simply because a player is premium or has played a lot doesn't mean that they're trustable.

The unfortunate truth of the matter is that there will always be cheaters/abusers on the site. Sure you may be able to get rid of a few but more will always come. The fortunate thing is that you're not spending money (like an Ebay scam) so worse comes to worse you just have to wait until that particular game ends.
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complaint management

Postby wacicha on Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:56 pm

it would be a good idea to have a group to manage the complaints - hash thru them all and then pass it up to be taken care of at upper management and that's you LACK as we all know even the police have to be policed =-= what this means is maybe two groups first sorts thru all the complaints and figures out which ones are not absolutly not cheaters then passes what is left to the next level. they then determine - are these blatantly cheaters or people who are not up on the rules = who just wanna play so they creat two I D's just to be able to get into games. they can be talked to and determined if they want to change their ways!! and of the ones that don't they need to go to lack it's his site it looks like he can play with out bias but i would not even trust ME to make a decision about somebody without wondering if i'm being to lenient or to strick it is hard but only one should have that power lack and only lack == but the two management groups would free up his time to then take care of what needs done both working the site and making life changing decisions for people accused of cheating
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Postby lackattack on Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:17 am

Thanks to all of you for your feedback on this subject. Now that the server is stable and I've mostly caught up with the cheating allegations, I want to move forward on this.

I've learned that I can keep up with policing rule #1 by investigating complaints and random spot checks. My tools make it relatively easy to figure out if two players are the same person. I've also learned that it's too hard to pass judgment on someone accused of a secret alliance.

I agree with comments that a committee can be problematic with power abuse, bad blood, etc.. We could elect players for limited term, as suggested by YP_Legend, or pull random players up for jury duty, as suggested by NYMEX offline, but frankly I don't think a committee is really needed at this point.

I'm not convinced about banning same IP addresses from public games. But I won't rule it out for future consideration either.

I think mastersneeze is right on the money with a social networking type of solution. We should definitely have ignore lists so if you think someone is a cheater you put him/her on your list and the he/she is blocked from joining any game you are in. The idea of a buddy list is also interesting with respect to helping you find more bad guys to ignore.

We'd really need a good way for people to identify cheaters, so they can add the cheater to their list before becoming a victim. I'm considering...

Rating players from 1-5 as suggested here: Rating Players?.
Posting publicly viewable comments about players (you would be able to read the comments on their profile).
Showing the number of people currently ignoring each player.

As mentioned already, we want to minimize potential for abuse by griefers, and give people some sort of chance to change their ways before being ignored by everyone (especially if the orginal complaints were baseless!).

I'm going to spend the next week or so looking at other websites from eBay to MySpace for inspiration. If anyone has further feedback I'm all ears.
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Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:34 pm

I suggest that with the ratings of the users, and how many people ignore them currently, etc... that you also include any warnings or bans they have received. Just so you know what you might be getting into when in a game with whomever.

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Postby cybertech on Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:37 am

I like your plan lack i only have one concern: what if there is some jokester who likes damaging peoples "stats" would you have a way to stop them from needless 'smiting' like a regenerating stats bar or some limit to amount of people on your ignore list?

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Postby lackattack on Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:05 am

If we go with rating players, it should allow you to rate someone only if you played against them. That could limit the amount of damage a jokester can do.
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