CLASSIC CITIES: Sydney [Quenched]

[cairnswk]

With the new layout above,

I count 72 territs...
less 6 Neutrals on 3 or less regions:
La Perouse
Marrickville
Sydney
Narrabeen
Blue Mtns N.P.
and Marramarra N.P. North
= 66 (Golden number) ?

[pamoa]

66 is acceptable
but 71 is better
maybe you should code all those 3 territories regions as starting position
having so much territories neutral at the start is always a pity on a "normal" gameplay map

[cairnswk]

66 is acceptable
but 71 is better
maybe you should code all those 3 territories regions as starting position
having so much territories neutral at the start is always a pity on a "normal" gameplay map

Would it then have classic gameplay?

[pamoa]

coding them as starting position is only there to ensure no drop bonus
but the gameplay is perfectly normal

[nolefan5311]

I've run the bonus spreadsheet on the latest version of the map and this is what I came up with.

The bonus for SE Suburbs needs to be reduced from 4 to 3.

The bonus for Southern Beaches needs to be reduced from 2 to 1. There's only 1 region (2 attack points) to defend.

The bonus for Northern Beaches needs to be reduced by at least 1, possibly 2. You might also want to extend the border of Palm Beach and Kuringal all the way so they meet. It's slightly confusing how they border right now.

National Parks needs to be reduced from 4 to 3.

Also, you may wish to add an impassable (probably some of those mountains) between Leura and Jamison Valley (it's incorrectly spelled on the map, I've seen it spelled Jamison Valley and Jamieson Valley, but not the way you have it). The spreadsheet is suggesting that bonus be a +3, but ian is hesitant to increase it, so adding the impassable between Leura and Jamison Valley would solve that problem.

And let me know what you want to do about coding some of those positions as starting neutrals, but in all likelihood, we're going to suggest it to you anyway once I've run the bonus drop spreadsheet. Makes it easier on me to know that the following continents automatically won't be dropped bonuses, and will probably make it easier on you since it appears you're already willing to code these start positions as neutral:

Eastern Suburbs (La Perouse, though you will probably need to change this to Bondi)
SE Suburbs (Marrickville)
Sydney - City
Northern Beaches (Narrabeen)
Blue Mountains National Park - (bonus of same name)
National Parks - Marramarra N.P North

[chapcrap]

The latest update is good for seeing the bonuses better. I'm still not the biggest fan of the raised numbers that are the same color as their background. But, it is better.

I think the whole background on the left would be better if it wasn't that shade of blue/green. Perhaps you can have something that represents Syndey being the background in that section.

[cairnswk]

I've run the bonus spreadsheet on the latest version of the map and this is what I came up with.

The bonus for SE Suburbs needs to be reduced from 4 to 3.

The bonus for Southern Beaches needs to be reduced from 2 to 1. There's only 1 region (2 attack points) to defend.

The bonus for Northern Beaches needs to be reduced by at least 1, possibly 2. You might also want to extend the border of Palm Beach and Kuringal all the way so they meet. It's slightly confusing how they border right now.

National Parks needs to be reduced from 4 to 3.

Done.

Also, you may wish to add an impassable (probably some of those mountains) between Leura and Jamison Valley (it's incorrectly spelled on the map, I've seen it spelled Jamison Valley and Jamieson Valley, but not the way you have it). The spreadsheet is suggesting that bonus be a +3, but ian is hesitant to increase it, so adding the impassable between Leura and Jamison Valley would solve that problem.

yes there are mountains which Leura sits atop and there is a cable car into the Jamison Valley.
However, i have created mountains to make the Jamison Valley look like there is a valley there, but i'm not in favour of the impassable mountains there, so have created a link between the dam territory and Jamison Valley so it is easier to assault in there, and the impassable is now between Jamison Valley and Blue Mnts N.P.

And let me know what you want to do about coding some of those positions as starting neutrals, but in all likelihood, we're going to suggest it to you anyway once I've run the bonus drop spreadsheet. Makes it easier on me to know that the following continents automatically won't be dropped bonuses, and will probably make it easier on you since it appears you're already willing to code these start positions as neutral:

Eastern Suburbs (La Perouse, though you will probably need to change this to Bondi)
SE Suburbs (Marrickville)
Sydney - City
Northern Beaches (Narrabeen)
Blue Mountains National Park - (bonus of same name)
National Parks - Marramarra N.P North

Neutral starts are placed as above.
thanks for yours and ian's work on this.

The latest update is good for seeing the bonuses better. I'm still not the biggest fan of the raised numbers that are the same color as their background. But, it is better.

I think the whole background on the left would be better if it wasn't that shade of blue/green. Perhaps you can have something that represents Syndey being the background in that section.

chapcrap...i'm not infavour of loosing that green left side as the background of the legend since it represents the combined colour of the Blue Mnts and the Gum leaves.

I have however, re-organised some legend for you and there are now 4 iconic images of Sydney on the map.
One needs no explanation.
The Opera house is not going on this map as it already on the Sydney Metro map.

Version 11.



CB Version 11 added to front page
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... 11S_cb.jpg

[army of nobunaga]

I like this old school classical risk map feel.

This is another map I need to look at more hours to get an idea on gameplay

[cairnswk]

I like this old school classical risk map feel.
...

Cool.

Are there any other comments re gameplay then?

[pamoa]

I would suggest you change the following neutrals
as I think it is better if key connecting point are "active"
else they become blocking point
and can give a big advantage to some player with a good concentrated drop

Eastern Suburbs = Bondi
SE Suburbs = Marrickville
Sydney = City
Northern Beaches = (Narrabeen) Palm Beach is better as it is not blocking the access to the kayak line
Blue Mountains National Park = (Blue Mountains National Park) Jamison Valley is better as BMNP is an hot point
National Parks = Marramarra National Parks North

[nolefan5311]

I would suggest you change the following neutrals
as I think it is better if key connecting point are "active"
else they become blocking point
and can give a big advantage to some player with a good concentrated drop

Eastern Suburbs = Bondi
SE Suburbs = Marrickville
Sydney = City
Northern Beaches = (Narrabeen) Palm Beach is better as it is not blocking the access to the kayak line
Blue Mountains National Park = (Blue Mountains National Park) Jamison Valley is better as BMNP is an hot point
National Parks = Marramarra National Parks North

Good points, though I would probably prefer that Manly start neutral rather than Palm Beach as Palm Beach is the only Northern Beaches territory that borders National Parks. Also, cairns, have you thought about extending the border of Palm Beach to Kuringal all the way and removing that little speck of water? It would clarify the borders a little more.

And I don't see any problem making Jamison Valley the neutral either. BMNP is a pretty centrally located region to start as a neutral.

[cairnswk]

...Also, cairns, have you thought about extending the border of Palm Beach to Kuringal all the way and removing that little speck of water? It would clarify the borders a little more.
...

i already have extended that border but am not in favour of extending it all the way because there is a bay in there...nobody would know of course unless they checked another map, but doesn't seem right to me when i think it is clear that Palm Bach borders Kuringai-Chase N.P.

The other suggestions above re changing positions for the neutral starts i am happy to do.

[nolefan5311]

...Also, cairns, have you thought about extending the border of Palm Beach to Kuringal all the way and removing that little speck of water? It would clarify the borders a little more.
...

i already have extended that border but am not in favour of extending it all the way because there is a bay in there...nobody would know of course unless they checked another map, but doesn't seem right to me when i think it is clear that Palm Bach borders Kuringai-Chase N.P.

The other suggestions above re changing positions for the neutral starts i am happy to do.

Ok, cool. Maybe just extend the straight horizontal line of the border between Palm Beach and Narrabeen all the way to Kuringal, cutting off that little triangle of St Ives Chase might be an option too. I wouldn't say it's unclear right now, but it's confusing just a little.

Also, I've run the bonus drop probabilities and they're very low, which is good. I'm running it by ian right now, should hear back from him in the next day or two. Would you be opposed to adding one more starting neutral? I've asked him what he thinks about lowering the start positions from 66 to 65, decreasing the golden number to 21, which would lower the probabilities even more, but then we may have an issue with the 21 starting regions and getting your opponent below 21 (and possibly even 18) too easily first turn in a 1v1. Hold off on changing anything right now until either he posts in the thread and I've posted what he's told me. Regardless, you're pretty close the Stamp, so hang tight

[pamoa]

65 not good at all in 1vs1 and 3 players games

[nolefan5311]

cairns, further review by Ian and myself indicates that you may need to lower the bonuses for Lower B.M, Upper B.M, BMNP, and Northwest Highlands even more. As is, a person can hold Parr State, Wilberforce, Winmalee, and Warragamba (4 regions) for a +12 bonus, or they can hold Winmalee and Warragamba (2 regions) for a +9.

What you may need to do is reduce each of the bonuses by 1, or perhaps combine the Upper BM and Lower BM bonuses into one continent at a +5 or something like that. That is, unless you're opposed to adding some sort of long range connection into the region, but I know you strive for geographic authenticity.. Maybe there can be a one way attack from Sydney to the Dam region, since you said that the dam is the sole provider of power to Sydney? Just an idea, let me know how you'd like to proceed.