4 Star Meats [17 March 2013] v29 pg40

[dana1971]

Wow where to start.

Natty Dread: I will fall off my chair if you ever like this map, because at it's core it is a simple dissection of a cow that tells people where their meat comes from.
But maybe one day I'll meat your approval. "No pun intended"

let me state clear that I have also talked seriously with Lackattack and he is ok with this map if developed in the right way with the help of the CAs.

There has never been an intention to make a butcher shop map, the idea was and I believe approved, to make a map of a cow in a butcher shop setting. Please correct me if I'm wrong Thenobodies.

Fantastic comments from Koontz1973, I can work with those and especially like the chalk board idea listing the bonuses as prices.
I don't fully agree with all your suggestions but I like most of them, so I'll take it one step at a time and do what I can in the next draft.

In terms of the colors, the reason I put them in is so that you could tell what regions you needed, to get the bonuses clearly.
The cow itself needs to be clear and graphic so it's easy to play on. So I've stayed away from making it look photo-real.

Great comments from Bison King, and Gillipig too, and as always thanks for the help Thenobodies.
In fact thanks to everyone who has given me constructive feedback.

I was thinking of replacing the flies with a symbol of a delivery truck, like a logo for the people who made the map.
Replace the poo with a few bottles of milk, and I don't think having grass on the map is unrealistic. Consider it a little garnish to give the image that free range goodness ranchers want us consumers to have.

It terms of making it more butcher shop looking, There is one very easy thing you all seemed to over look that I could do to let people know the map was on the wall of a butcher shop.
Drum roll please..... Rename that map "Butcher Shop" or Butchers wall"

I will try thenobodies idea of adding a meat counter in the foreground, maybe some hanging meat too, but I don't want to clutter the map to much with window dressing just to sell the idea that it's in a butcher shop when the title will tell players all they need to know.

Anyway, a lot to think about.

Best Wishes,
Dana

[natty dread]

Natty Dread: I will fall off my chair if you ever like this map, because at it's core it is a simple dissection of a cow that tells people where their meat comes from.
But maybe one day I'll meat your approval. "No pun intended"

You'll "meat" my approval simply by making a map with a consistent theme, that isn't just an excuse to have a map about a cow. A map where the gameplay and graphics are consistent with the theme.

The cow itself needs to be clear and graphic so it's easy to play on. So I've stayed away from making it look photo-real.

It doesn't have to be photo-real, but it should look like a cow. You can make it look like a cow while still making it clear and easy to play on.

I was thinking of replacing the flies with a symbol of a delivery truck, like a logo for the people who made the map.
Replace the poo with a few bottles of milk, and I don't think having grass on the map is unrealistic.

Ok, these ideas are all just more of the same - trying to do some cosmetic changes to keep the same basic map you have unchanged.

Nobodies called you the most open-minded mapmaker he's seen, and now's the good time to show it - show that you're open to feedback, open to making changes and not just sticking to what you have because you think it's perfect already. Show us that open-mindedness you were so lauded about.

Why would there be a piece of grass on a poster about cow cuttings in a butcher shop? "Free range" is a poor excuse - it's not something that's immediately obvious or intuitive to the players, it's just a bit too far-fetched. It's not immediately associable - players are not going to go "aha, the grass is there because it's free range, how clever", rather they'll be "grass, wtf is it doing in a butcher shop"?

As for bottles of milk - since when is milk being sold at a butcher? Butchers sell meat products. Have a meat counter there with sausages and such, those would be theme-appropriate. You'd have to make some gameplay changes to fit them in but you're going to have to do those anyway, because there's just no way you're going to keep the gameplay the same if you're going to properly develop the theme for this map.

Symbol of a delivery truck - that just seems too abstract. If it was an actual delivery truck, if you could somehow represent it as being outside the butcher shop, then it'd be ok. But you'd have to draw more of the butcher shop for that to work, and it'd mean making the map bigger. You may end up having to do that anyway, but a truck may be just a bit unfeasible.

It terms of making it more butcher shop looking, There is one very easy thing you all seemed to over look that I could do to let people know the map was on the wall of a butcher shop.
Drum roll please..... Rename that map "Butcher Shop" or Butchers wall"

Ok yeah, that's fine and all, but that alone is not going to cut it. If you have to label something for people understand what it's about then you've failed - think of poorly made political cartoons.

You should be able to convey to players that the map is about a butcher shop even without them reading the title. The map should speak for itself, so to speak.


Anyway, looking forward to seeing some real progress on this one. I'm not against this map, but I want to see it developed properly, with a theme that is strong enough to stand on it's own, without relying on the novelty of "ha ha, there's a cow on this map".

[dana1971]

Natty, as open minded as I am it is impossible to work in everyone's comments, and you are not the only one with comments, but I'll do what I can, and I have no expectation of being able to make everyone happy. All in all it has to be something I'm happy with.

In terms of your comment on the title explaining the butcher shop theme. Remember a door is just a door, until you put words on it like "office" or "rest room" then you know exactly where it goes and are able to put it into context.


Best wishes
Dana

[thenobodies80]

thenobodies80 wrote: let me state clear that I have also talked seriously with Lackattack and he is ok with this map if developed in the right way with the help of the CAs.


There has never been an intention to make a butcher shop map, the idea was and I believe approved, to make a map of a cow in a butcher shop setting. Please correct me if I'm wrong Thenobodies.

Lackattack is ok with the subject of the map, leaving to the CAs the decisions about the development of the map in the right way following the current Foundry Guidelines/Standards.
What I asked to Lackattack is: "Are you ok with a map that have as subject a cow?"

The context/development wasn't discussed with him because it's up to the CAs to follow this and ensure that all the maps follow the same procedure/stadards/guidelines.
In fact we're discussing it right now, because it's in this way that the foundry should work.

Btw dana, check your inbox I've sent you a PM with a quick and ugly sketch.

Nobodies

[Gillipig]

One of the most important things you need to focus on is how you can get rid of the things that can't be on this map because it's now set in a butcher shop, without making the gameplay unbalanced with a lot of bottle necks. The cow pat, flies and grass needs to be replaced or we need to figure out another way of making it a balanced map!
I don't think you can realistically find "butchery" things to replace all of them! I think you need to set it up differently this time!
Here's a suggestion;
Bring in butcher knifes. Place these knifes on strategic places where you need another border and add a little comment in the legend describing how the knifes connects to each other. You would get the borders you want and it would fit the theme.
Another suggestion is to put blood stains on the places you want to connect. Same principle as the knifes only blood stains this time.
Or you could integrate them both .
Just some suggestions .

[dana1971]

I agree to make the map balanced I need something like the fly swarm, cow pat, and grass. Someone mentioned replacing the grass with a sale sticker, I may do something like that.
Perhaps several special offer stickers will do the job.

I like the idea of blood stains but that goes against other comments asking for a clean realistic butcher shop that you may buy meat from.
In terms of the knives, I have an idea of how they could work to replace the fly swarm, but not sure it will work.

Best Wishes,
Dana

[dana1971]

Hi all,

Still lots to do but here's the latest. I decided to concentrate on a general layout that helps establish the theme.
I probably don't need so many chalk boards but you get the idea.

Also think I may need to cut down on the artwork around the playable area, so the map is more compact.

Still to add bonuses, and mark out regions with color.

I've got a special offer sticker instead of the grass. The idea is that there is a special offer on Tongue and hoofs, so it acts as a portal to those regions, but the special offer resets itself every round because it's a limited offer.

Thought the map logo/title could replace the flies, and there is now a loyalty reward sticker to replace the poo which can be one way attacked from the company logo/title because that's where you would get you loyalty points. The points can only be used to attack the back hoof. You can also attack loyalty points from the tail, because the shop is having a sale on the tail, and is giving away extra loyalty points if you buy the tail.

Click image to enlarge.

Best Wishes,
Dana

[DoomYoshi]

It needs more colour coding of different regions, methinks.

[koontz1973]

dana, wow, really going in the right direction now and it is still a cow map.

Can I get you to do 2 things for me. Add 88's to the board (just to make sure they fit in all regions with space as you have to do the small one as well) and get the GP rules onto the board. You might have trouble with that (the space) you have is very small now. If you do have trouble, you could move the map left or right and haave one larger black board for the rules at the side instead of 3 small ones.

Graphically speaking, the photos you have used for the meat and counter will not get the graphics stamp as is, so start looking at the ways you can improve these now. No need to wait for later. Also, the font for the legend/prices needs to have a more for a written feel to it. Less neat but not messy. Have a look over at dafont for some.

Good luck.

[Oneyed]

I like your last version. nice idea with butcher

some colours would help to bonuses.

Oneyed

[Flapcake]

Dana, this looks real nice. This bucther theme match the poster greate and you have build every thing in real nice, the price bord are outstanding as bonus legend.

Only one thing but thats cosmetic and easy to solve, the meat hanging from the ceiling are kind of blurry or out of focus, but you probably know that,

greate work, thumbs up

[Gillipig]

Nice !

[natty dread]

I'm a bit worried that some territories are too small for army numbers when scaled to the small version.

The small version should be about 70-80% the size of the large...


As for gameplay, the special offer only attacks tongue and hoof... it doesn't seem very useful from a gameplay perspective. Especially since it's a killer neutral.

I think a better idea would be to use the butcher knives as special territories that attack various points on the map.

[AndyDufresne]

I'm a bit worried that some territories are too small for army numbers when scaled to the small version.

The small version should be about 70-80% the size of the large...

Mmhm. It might be worthwhile expanding the playable region further to the left and bottom, since right now it is only aesthetic flair that it would be replacing.

Look forward to seeing this idea further develop.


--Andy

[The Bison King]

Hey alright! this is looking good. Obviously it needs color. I like the Special offer, that's a nice touch.

Also think I may need to cut down on the artwork around the playable area, so the map is more compact.

Well I think it would be better to increase the size of the playable area a bit.

However why "4 Star Meats"? is there some connection I'm not making? where did this title come from?