Czecho Slovak Fragmentation - name change, page 41

[Jippd]

Right but those are permanently placed neutrals. Could you code the neutrals that come up in a classic 1 v 1 game to be n2's instead of n3's since they are randomly dropped along with players starting territories?

[nolefan5311]

Thats a good point Jippd.

[natty dread]

No. 

[nolefan5311]

I know you're quite the accomplished mapmaker, natty, but us laymen might need a more thorough explanation on what can or can't be done.

[Oneyed]

I'm impressed of how you've managed to make a map complicated and diverse with so few tools! This is not a large map and at first glance it looks fairly simple, but it's actually a pretty hard map to truly get! And finding the perfect strategy will def take some time.

this your feeling was what I want to do with small map . I´m glad that you like it

Two things I'd like to bring up though. Why have you chosen such an impossible title ? "Fragmentation of the Czech and Slovak Federal Republic" Why not just " The fragmentation of Czechoslovakia"? Because that's what it is right ?

I could say you are right, but Czechoslovakia is short name for first republic, for socialist republic and also for federative republic after revolution... maybe I could go with "Fragmentation of the Czecho-Slovakia.

I also think you should go back at using a unison background colour instead of the road map. But this is just a matter of personal taste I guess. If I'm the only one who's complained about the background image then keep it !

there is no more this opinion the map wants be a board map used in schools and this background also helps to identify where Czechoslovakia lies - in central Europe.

thank you for comments

Oneyed

[Oneyed]

I find interesting debate here about neutrals. but still there is not clear what is possible. or not.

here is picture how will be neutrals code in 8 players game. and these will be permanent neutrals for each game:

Click image to enlarge.

so the questions are (using Trenčín as example):
1, is possible to code Trenčín as random deployed for players in 8 players game, but as neutral in 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1v1 games?
2, so is possible to code exactly which region of "not permanent neutrals" will be neutral?

Oneyed

[iancanton]

it's not possible to code trenčín as randomly-deployed for 8 players but as a starting neutral for games with 2 to 7 players.

one major difficulty with the town bonus that u have chosen is that +1 for 4 towns does not work well if u have 32 randomly-deployed territories (i avoid the word region because it has a different meaning on this map). this is because, in 4-player games, each player starts with 8 territories, so player 1 starts with a +2 town bonus and can reduce an enemy's town bonus to +1 if he conquers just 1 enemy territory. do u really want to have the town bonus? the map can work without it.

ian.

[Oneyed]

it's not possible to code trenčín as randomly-deployed for 8 players but as a starting neutral for games with 2 to 7 players.

at last we have clear here

one major difficulty with the town bonus that u have chosen is that +1 for 4 towns does not work well if u have 32 randomly-deployed territories (i avoid the word region because it has a different meaning on this map).

but map has 10 regions and 22 randomly deployed towns. hm, but 22 is still enough for possibility that one or more players will start with Town bonus...

this is because, in 4-player games, each player starts with 8 territories, so player 1 starts with a +2 town bonus and can reduce an enemy's town bonus to +1 if he conquers just 1 enemy territory.

as I mentioned there are also 10 regions - so it is more possible that player 1 starts with +1 town bonus. I think from his 8 starting territories will be at last 1 region...

do u really want to have the town bonus? the map can work without it.

we can do +1 for 5 Towns, or +2 for 6 Towns. the problem that one player will starts with any bonus is here also without Town bonus. as you wrote - in 4 players game each player starts with 8 territories. so here is still big chance that he can from start holds any Kraj bonus in Slovak Republic (SR). am I right?

ian.

thanks ian for comments. you are expert on gameplay, so I am looking forward on your help

Oneyed

[iancanton]

this is because, in 4-player games, each player starts with 8 territories, so player 1 starts with a +2 town bonus and can reduce an enemy's town bonus to +1 if he conquers just 1 enemy territory.

as I mentioned there are also 10 regions - so it is more possible that player 1 starts with +1 town bonus. I think from his 8 starting territories will be at last 1 region...

correct! i wrote down my comment too quickly. in 4-player games, each player starts with an average of 5 or 6 towns, which is good. in 2-player games, each player starts with an average of 6 to 8 towns plus 2 to 4 regions, which means the usual town bonus is +1, but +2 is also common.

in 4 players game each player starts with 8 territories. so here is still big chance that he can from start holds any Kraj bonus in Slovak Republic (SR). am I right?

the chance of starting with a slovak kraj is similar to the chance in classic of starting with oceania or south america. this is very low.

thanks ian for comments. you are expert on gameplay, so I am looking forward on your help

thanks, oneyed. please note that "experts" can make mistakes (see above!).

consider the suggestion from jippd to have n2 neutrals: in 1v1 games, many players ignore big neutrals such as n3 because they focus on assaulting the enemy. as natty said, it's not possible to have n2 for 1v1 and n3 for other game types, so u must have n3 for everything or n2 for everything. if u specify 32 start positions, with a maximum of 10 per player and underlying n2, then this will produce n2 neutrals for everything that does not belong to a player.

ian.

[Gillipig]

I think that you should be able to code it that the neutrals start with 2. That should not be a problem.

In Knights, for instance, all the "middle ground" territories were coded as n1's, and I've seen it done throughout several other maps as well. I think the issue comes into play when coding them as 2's for 1v1 games, but making them 3's for all the other game types like Oneyed wants.

Making the numbers of neutrals vary depending on the number of players isn't a feature we have today. But it would sure be nice to have that option in the future! Take notes lackattack

I could say you are right, but Czechoslovakia is short name for first republic, for socialist republic and also for federative republic after revolution... maybe I could go with "Fragmentation of the Czecho-Slovakia.

Here's where my history knowledge is limited . I'm concerned with the length of the title but if Czechoslovakia is the name for what came after the fragmentation, then of course you can't use that name . But yeah Czecho-Slovakia sounds good to me as long as it makes the title shorter !

[Oneyed]

correct! i wrote down my comment too quickly. in 4-player games, each player starts with an average of 5 or 6 towns, which is good. in 2-player games, each player starts with an average of 6 to 8 towns plus 2 to 4 regions, which means the usual town bonus is +1, but +2 is also common.

5 or 6 towns stll gives to player Town bonus from start...

the chance of starting with a slovak kraj is similar to the chance in classic of starting with oceania or south america. this is very low.

sounds good

thanks, oneyed. please note that "experts" can make mistakes (see above!).

mistakes are human

consider the suggestion from jippd to have n2 neutrals: in 1v1 games, many players ignore big neutrals such as n3 because they focus on assaulting the enemy. as natty said, it's not possible to have n2 for 1v1 and n3 for other game types, so u must have n3 for everything or n2 for everything. if u specify 32 start positions, with a maximum of 10 per player and underlying n2, then this will produce n2 neutrals for everything that does not belong to a player.

ian.

in 4 players game each one will has 8 territories.
in 3 players game this will be 8 territories and 2 more neutrals.
in 1 v 1 game each player will has 10 territories. there will be 12 more neutrals + 3 permanent neutrals. will not be 15 neutrals too many?

about neutral numbers. I more like idea n3. but maybe for Praha and Bratislava could be n5 everytime? maybe also Brno?

ian, it looks that your notice to kick off Town bonus could solve some problems. I do not (so much) like maps with simple and poor bonus structure. but I am ok with map without Town bonus.

Making the numbers of neutrals vary depending on the number of players isn't a feature we have today. But it would sure be nice to have that option in the future! Take notes lackattack

yes, this would be great. you have my voice for this

Here's where my history knowledge is limited . I'm concerned with the length of the title but if Czechoslovakia is the name for what came after the fragmentation, then of course you can't use that name . But yeah Czecho-Slovakia sounds good to me as long as it makes the title shorter !

after fragmentation came two independent states: Czech republic and Slovak republic. but Czechoslovakia was common name for state in 1918 - 1939 and also in 1945 - 1989 and also in 1990 - 1993.
but name Fragmentation of the Czecho-Slovakia should be used if long name is big problem.

guys thank you for help.

Oneyed

[nolefan5311]

I will post this info just for your review oneyed (this is just 1v1):

Town Bonus +1 for 4 - chances of dropping at least 4 towns is 99.7%. Chances of dropping 8 towns is 31.02%

Town Bonus +1 for 5 - chances of dropping at least 5 towns is 97.32%. Chances of dropping 10 towns is 1%.

Town Bonus for +1 for 6 - chances of dropping at least 6 towns is 87.03%. Chances of dropping 12 (all of your starting territories for a +2) is miniscule.

I agree with ian in that eliminating the town bonus would probably be the best option to make the gameplay more balanced. Increasing it to 5 would significantly lower the chances of a player dropping a +2, but the chances of dropping a +1 are so high (and the chances of dropping 7 is over 62%), that the first player could easily get the 8th town on his first turn for the +2 while also knocking down his opponents chances of getting the +2. That's a longwinded way of saying I think getting rid of the town bonus is the best bet.

[Dukasaur]

I will post this info just for your review oneyed (this is just 1v1):

Town Bonus +1 for 4 - chances of dropping at least 4 towns is 99.7%. Chances of dropping 8 towns is 31.02%

Town Bonus +1 for 5 - chances of dropping at least 5 towns is 97.32%. Chances of dropping 10 towns is 1%.

Town Bonus for +1 for 6 - chances of dropping at least 6 towns is 87.03%. Chances of dropping 12 (all of your starting territories for a +2) is miniscule.

I agree with ian in that eliminating the town bonus would probably be the best option to make the gameplay more balanced. Increasing it to 5 would significantly lower the chances of a player dropping a +2, but the chances of dropping a +1 are so high (and the chances of dropping 7 is over 62%), that the first player could easily get the 8th town on his first turn for the +2 while also knocking down his opponents chances of getting the +2. That's a longwinded way of saying I think getting rid of the town bonus is the best bet.

Why this big obsession with not letting someone drop a +1 bonus? People drop Downtown on the Montreal map all the time; doesn't make it any less playable. And in any case, the whole point of randomization is that over time, the great drops you get will balance out the bad drops you get.

[nolefan5311]

I will post this info just for your review oneyed (this is just 1v1):

Town Bonus +1 for 4 - chances of dropping at least 4 towns is 99.7%. Chances of dropping 8 towns is 31.02%

Town Bonus +1 for 5 - chances of dropping at least 5 towns is 97.32%. Chances of dropping 10 towns is 1%.

Town Bonus for +1 for 6 - chances of dropping at least 6 towns is 87.03%. Chances of dropping 12 (all of your starting territories for a +2) is miniscule.

I agree with ian in that eliminating the town bonus would probably be the best option to make the gameplay more balanced. Increasing it to 5 would significantly lower the chances of a player dropping a +2, but the chances of dropping a +1 are so high (and the chances of dropping 7 is over 62%), that the first player could easily get the 8th town on his first turn for the +2 while also knocking down his opponents chances of getting the +2. That's a longwinded way of saying I think getting rid of the town bonus is the best bet.

Why this big obsession with not letting someone drop a +1 bonus? People drop Downtown on the Montreal map all the time; doesn't make it any less playable. And in any case, the whole point of randomization is that over time, the great drops you get will balance out the bad drops you get.

The issue is not dropping a +1, it's dropping a +2. If the current bonus structure is kept, dropping +2 (for 8 towns) has a 31% chance of happening. At the very least, it should be 5 towns for the +1.

[Oneyed]

updated version. Town bonus is kicked off. some little graphics changes.

Click image to enlarge.

Oneyed