Vertex/Austrum [Quenched]

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Re: Vertex/Austrum [1/12] V11 Page 1/5 [GP?]

Postby nolefan5311 on Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:49 pm

I honestly don't have many suggestions. For Vertex, is there a reason why there is no entry into Supernas from the outer land masses?

The bonus structure for both maps has me worried as well. It's almost a certainty that in any game type, especially 1v1, tbat multiple bonuses will be dropped, and these look like maps that will be played a lot in 1v1. For instance, the SE continent has 9 regions in it. There is 9 regions in that area, and if a player only needs 3 for the +1, there is a mathematical certainty that at least 1 player will drop a bonus there. I know you don't want to do the traditional continents, and programming too many neutrals is going to destroy the gameplay of the map. Even increasing it to a +1 for every 4 territories in a region won't solve the problem, at least not for a 9 region continent. Just a suggestion, but what about making 10 different 4 region continents, and make each one worth +1? That's the only thing I can think of right now, without programming a bunch of starting neutrals. You have any ideas?

And this might just be me since I am colorblind, but it is a little difficult to tell what area some regions belong to (Insula, Carlt, etc).
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [1/12] V11 Page 1/5 [GP?]

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:15 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:I honestly don't have many suggestions. For Vertex, is there a reason why there is no entry into Supernas from the outer land masses?

No reason what so ever apart from when I drew the map, that is how it turned out. Would you like one?

The bonus structure for both maps has me worried as well. It's almost a certainty that in any game type, especially 1v1, tbat multiple bonuses will be dropped, and these look like maps that will be played a lot in 1v1. For instance, the SE continent has 9 regions in it. There is 9 regions in that area, and if a player only needs 3 for the +1, there is a mathematical certainty that at least 1 player will drop a bonus there. I know you don't want to do the traditional continents, and programming too many neutrals is going to destroy the gameplay of the map. Even increasing it to a +1 for every 4 territories in a region won't solve the problem, at least not for a 9 region continent. Just a suggestion, but what about making 10 different 4 region continents, and make each one worth +1? That's the only thing I can think of right now, without programming a bunch of starting neutrals. You have any ideas?

nole, my original idea was to not have any territory reinforcements (you know the normal +1 for every three you own) and only rely on bonuses for the extra troops. So on both maps, you need to drop 4 lots of 3 to get the extra 1 troop. This is not on the map as I need to keep the wording down to the barest amount. Please advise. This did lead to larger than normal bonus regions so players have the ability to expand and grow armies quicker than a normal game. So if I put in the words with the troops circle (bottom left for both maps), what would you say?
How about:
Troops
+1 for every 3 territories in a ? (I currently have region here).
No region bonus.
This I should be able to fit in.
And this might just be me since I am colorblind, but it is a little difficult to tell what area some regions belong to (Insula, Carlt, etc).

This I find strange as I used colour blind friendly colours and both maps look good in the gimp CB filter. Which areas are you finding easy to see and which hard. So I know what to touch and what not to.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [1/12] V11 Page 1/5 [GP?]

Postby nolefan5311 on Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:25 pm

koontz1973 wrote:
nolefan5311 wrote:I honestly don't have many suggestions. For Vertex, is there a reason why there is no entry into Supernas from the outer land masses?

No reason what so ever apart from when I drew the map, that is how it turned out. Would you like one?


I think it would add some importance to that land mass, and not make it so difficult to get into the center from that side of the map.

koontz1973 wrote:
The bonus structure for both maps has me worried as well. It's almost a certainty that in any game type, especially 1v1, tbat multiple bonuses will be dropped, and these look like maps that will be played a lot in 1v1. For instance, the SE continent has 9 regions in it. There is 9 regions in that area, and if a player only needs 3 for the +1, there is a mathematical certainty that at least 1 player will drop a bonus there. I know you don't want to do the traditional continents, and programming too many neutrals is going to destroy the gameplay of the map. Even increasing it to a +1 for every 4 territories in a region won't solve the problem, at least not for a 9 region continent. Just a suggestion, but what about making 10 different 4 region continents, and make each one worth +1? That's the only thing I can think of right now, without programming a bunch of starting neutrals. You have any ideas?

nole, my original idea was to not have any territory reinforcements (you know the normal +1 for every three you own) and only rely on bonuses for the extra troops. So on both maps, you need to drop 4 lots of 3 to get the extra 1 troop. This is not on the map as I need to keep the wording down to the barest amount. Please advise. This did lead to larger than normal bonus regions so players have the ability to expand and grow armies quicker than a normal game. So if I put in the words with the troops circle (bottom left for both maps), what would you say?
How about:
Troops
+1 for every 3 territories in a ? (I currently have region here).
No region bonus.
This I should be able to fit in.


Honestly, I think I would almost prefer just the standard territory bonus instead of the cumulative bonus per region, but I don't know how you feel about that. The only issue with the way it currently is is because of the drop. If you can program starting positions to keep people from dropping say, 6 regions in one of the 9 region continents (and stop the +2 bonus from being dropped), then the issue is solved. The bonus structure itself is very balanced, it's just the drop that has me worried.

koontz1973 wrote:
And this might just be me since I am colorblind, but it is a little difficult to tell what area some regions belong to (Insula, Carlt, etc).

This I find strange as I used colour blind friendly colours and both maps look good in the gimp CB filter. Which areas are you finding easy to see and which hard. So I know what to touch and what not to.


It's not really a big issue, but I will need to look more closely to list specific issues (other than the ones I mentioned in my previous post, which are the main ones).
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [1/12] V11 Page 1/5 [GP?]

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:08 pm

Honestly, I think I would almost prefer just the standard territory bonus instead of the cumulative bonus per region, but I don't know how you feel about that. The only issue with the way it currently is is because of the drop. If you can program starting positions to keep people from dropping say, 6 regions in one of the 9 region continents (and stop the +2 bonus from being dropped), then the issue is solved. The bonus structure itself is very balanced, it's just the drop that has me worried.

If I left it as a normal region count bonus, do you not think that players would just go for territs. This would lead to no strategy and all up to the dice. This would be bad. Some form of a bonus does need to be in. Will post a map later toady to see what I come up with.
I think it would add some importance to that land mass, and not make it so difficult to get into the center from that side of the map.

Will add one.
It's not really a big issue, but I will need to look more closely to list specific issues (other than the ones I mentioned in my previous post, which are the main ones).

Will look into these two areas for you.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [1/12] V11 Page 1/5 [GP?]

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:02 am

Sorry for the double post.
Big things changed on Vertex.
Vertex
Changed wording for troops so now all players know bonuses are just that with no other troops coming. Is this OK or does it need another wording?
Added the sea route between Mona and Auster Supernas. Deforestation made this possible. ;)
Moved hte bridges in the centre going to Arctous so no matter where you go into the centre, you have to take 2 territs before you can attack Arctous.
Removed the sea route between Delos and Borras Boreus.
Changed the two areas that nole had trouble with. How is the colour looking to you now nole.
Click image to enlarge.
image

Austrum
Changed wording to be the same as Vertex in the troops part.
Click image to enlarge.
image


If the wording for troops is no good, can we all get some ideas on how to word it.
1 troops for 3 territs in a region with no normal reinforcements at all. If this cannot be found, and I am sure mine is good :mrgreen: now, will break up Vertex some more but this will cause problems with the CB filters and the overall look of the map so I really do not want to go down this route yet.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [2/12] V12 Page 1/6 [GP?]

Postby nolefan5311 on Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:53 pm

This still doesn't really solve the bonus dropping issue, which could be a problem. We'll have to see if ian and thenobodies are good with it as is.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [2/12] V12 Page 1/6 [GP?]

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:27 am

nolefan5311 wrote:This still doesn't really solve the bonus dropping issue, which could be a problem. We'll have to see if ian and thenobodies are good with it as is.

In fact it solves nothing I just realised when reading this and writing a detailed response to you about how it solves everything and a complete rant on why you cannot see my vision for the maps. :lol:

Right now I can see only two options now.
Option 1.
    Both maps because of the large territ count in all bonuses, starting positions to be programmed in (these will get added to the existing ones in Austrum). So on Vertex, each player gets a max of 2 SPs, so no bonus drops but a large amount of neutrals. I would programme these as 1 but a 2 would go into all ports. On Austrum, the same principle will apply but each one will be added to the current 12 for the ships and middle. This is a clean easy option making the maps like feudal. It can be done today and then we can move on. But this is really not the option I would like as it is not a game type I play.
Option 2.
    Going to change the wording back so we end up getting the 1 troops for 3 territs as well as the bonuses. But am going to split up the bonus regions some more to have less chance of the drop bonus. If I keep a continent with 5 or more territs in though, I will bung in a neutral to counter the bonus drops. This solves all issues and allows me to keep the maps I want.
Will post a map later today using options 1 and 2 later today.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [2/12] V12 Page 1/6 [GP?]

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:41 pm

Again a double post. What has come over with me today. :lol:

OK, been looking at the two options I posted earlier today, and both are utter rubbish. Option one is a game type I do not play and option two produces lots of bonus areas and neutrals. I hate neutrals and the rainbow looked awful on the maps. So I thought long and hard to try and find a third option, which I think is a complete winner. Lets me keep the maps as I would like, stops bonus drops and has the benefit of being a decent progressive bonus system. All that needed to be changed and this might be the part that might need to be changed is this, troops - +1 for 3 territories that are connected. I think this is a fan bloody tastic solution but can you lot let me know what you think. It might need to go up to say 4/5 connected.
Vertex
New troop text.
Added Nesser to top right legend.
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image

Austrum
Same bonus text.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [3/12] V13 Page 1/6 [GP?]

Postby nolefan5311 on Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:59 pm

Going to go ahead and sticky this for the GP stamp, but give it longer than 48 hours to make sure a headline can get posted and give the community plenty of time to give their input.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [3/12] V13 Page 1/6 [GP?]

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:51 pm

Thanks nole, I need to put a few things in like a missing bridge and a sea route but I will get that done on Thursday.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [6/12] V14 Page 1/6

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:06 am

Finally found the time to get these two updated.

Vertex
Added a missing bridge and a new sea route so one of the islands now connects to its main land.
Placed in neutrals so any territ that has more than 2 borders will start neutral. This will reduce the chance of a bonus drop.
Click image to enlarge.
image

Austrum
Placed in neutrals so any territ that has more than 2 borders will start neutral. This will reduce the chance of a bonus drop.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [6/12] V14 Page 1/6

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:15 am

Are your bridges placeholders, or are you looking to use that sort of design? In either case, some curvature or rounding might be a nice touch, since I think that would fit with the map's scope of view.


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Re: Vertex/Austrum [6/12] V14 Page 1/6

Postby nolefan5311 on Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:21 am

AndyDufresne wrote:Are your bridges placeholders, or are you looking to use that sort of design? In either case, some curvature or rounding might be a nice touch, since I think that would fit with the map's scope of view.


--Andy


This is a great idea.

Also koontz, I'm checking about the change in bonus structure, should have something soon.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [6/12] V14 Page 1/6

Postby koontz1973 on Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:38 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:Are your bridges placeholders, or are you looking to use that sort of design? In either case, some curvature or rounding might be a nice touch, since I think that would fit with the map's scope of view.


--Andy


This is a great idea.

Also koontz, I'm checking about the change in bonus structure, should have something soon.


Yep, they are place holders, still trying to get the final ones drawn but seem to of hit a road block in that area. Nothing I do seems to fit any better than what I already have, and I hate those ones now.

Thanks nole. Hopefully you can get an agreement soon.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [6/12] V14 Page 1/6

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:33 pm

koontz1973 wrote:Yep, they are place holders, still trying to get the final ones drawn but seem to of hit a road block in that area. Nothing I do seems to fit any better than what I already have, and I hate those ones now.

Thanks nole. Hopefully you can get an agreement soon.


Maybe one of these can inspire you to something:

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Re: Vertex/Austrum [8/12] V15 Page 1/6

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:00 am

New game play for both maps.
Hold 4 connected regions in a territory to grab a +1 bonus. So by holding 5 connected you get +2. Bonuses will not get big as the territories are not that big (blue territ will only give +6 or +7 when all is held). But this will give some funny combos to be had. This will lead to some very interesting games and unique strategies IMO.

Vertex
New bridges.
Left side islands have now gone to red to allow for the 4 connected territs.
Click image to enlarge.
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Austrum
New bridges.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [8/12] V15 Page 1/6

Postby Seamus76 on Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:24 am

I like the bonus structure, it should work pretty well. Can't say I like the new bridges though. They look like cars or catapults or something. The old ones, even though simple, looked better and fit the map better in my opinion.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [8/12] V15 Page 1/6

Postby cairnswk on Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:26 am

koontz. i'm just looking at the design of these maps...know it's not gfx time, but this is found visually counter-effective
you seem to have good symmetry happening on the Austrum map re the gold circles, the wind-blowers and the other outer etchings, althought the gold embelishments at the mid-edges are not centered...is all this deliberate?
on the Vertex map, the green leaf embelishments are not symmertrical and create the counter effect of the rest of the outer edges.
the only other thing are the bridges...they stand out too much and don't have that same pastel effect as the rest of the map.
wondering if these things are on your radar?
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [8/12] V15 Page 1/6

Postby koontz1973 on Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:36 am

Everything is on my radar. Yep, the bridges are testers, I started to dislike the older ones.
cairns, I agree will all of what you say and I am in the process of fixing the whole thing. Some things will not be centred though deliberately. The gold clips are centred for the map size but not to the map itself. This is one example of that. Things like the leaf will get to look like it was supposed to be centred but might be out a little (like a very old map that was drawn by hand). So things like the lines on the map and the gold circles will be identical and centred as they can be done by a stencil, but if it would of been freehand some little defects will go in.

Bridges have to go. Still not finding the ones I like which is bloody annoying. Andy posted a couple of jpegs which do nothing but I will need to keep trying. It might just be I need to lower the opacity to the new ones to let them blend in to the map more.

Christmas holidays are coming up so I will have plenty of time to get those fixed.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [8/12] V15 Page 1/6

Postby macbone on Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:34 pm

I like the feel of these maps. I'm kinda getting a Seafarers of Catan vibe from them. Looking good, man!
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [8/12] V15 Page 1/6

Postby iancanton on Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:23 pm

koontz1973 wrote:New game play for both maps.
Hold 4 connected regions in a territory to grab a +1 bonus. So by holding 5 connected you get +2.

requiring 4 connected regions is a big improvement on needing only 3 regions. be aware that, by holding 5 connected regions, it's possible in austrum to gain +3 from this bonus, since there are 3 possible combinations of 4 in asser (not necessarily a problem).

by territory, do u mean bonus zone? if so, then there are only 11 territories, therefore the winning condition in vertex, hold arctous and 10 territories, is so difficult to achieve that virtually all games will finish by all opponents being killed.

in austrum, the winning condition is reasonable, once each player realises what the exploratorum are!

each map has regions called delos and aegina. is this deliberate?

ian. :)
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [8/12] V15 Page 1/6

Postby koontz1973 on Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:13 pm

iancanton wrote:
koontz1973 wrote:New game play for both maps.
Hold 4 connected regions in a territory to grab a +1 bonus. So by holding 5 connected you get +2.

requiring 4 connected regions is a big improvement on needing only 3 regions. be aware that, by holding 5 connected regions, it's possible in austrum to gain +3 from this bonus, since there are 3 possible combinations of 4 in asser (not necessarily a problem).

The combonations of the 4s need to be looked at, but I have not seen any territory giving away excessive amount of bonuses.
by territory, do u mean bonus zone? if so, then there are only 11 territories, therefore the winning condition in vertex, hold arctous and 10 territories, is so difficult to achieve that virtually all games will finish by all opponents being killed.

Wording on my part will change. Territory to region so same vocab as troops legend.
in austrum, the winning condition is reasonable, once each player realises what the exploratorum are!

And the two ships in that part of the legend, next to the exploratorum name is not clue enough for payers?
each map has regions called delos and aegina. is this deliberate?

ian. :)

Not only deliberate, but wanted. Many things from the maps cross over to a sense of connection is had.

Vertex
Wording changed as stated above.
Removed neutral 2s from Dominica as the 4 in a row principle removes the requirement for it here.
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Austrum
No changes made.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [10/12] V15.1 Page 1/7

Postby nolefan5311 on Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:57 am

I think this latest update is probably good to go, so I'm putting a last call out there. If anybody has any remaining issues with the gameplay, now is the time to speak. Otherwise, this map will receive the GP stamp in 48 hours.
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [10/12] V15.1 Page 1/7

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:08 pm

Still looking good.


--Andy
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Re: Vertex/Austrum [10/12] V15.1 Page 1/7

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:28 pm

nolefan5311 wrote:I think this latest update is probably good to go, so I'm putting a last call out there. If anybody has any remaining issues with the gameplay, now is the time to speak. Otherwise, this map will receive the GP stamp in 48 hours.

Thanks nole. As soon as it is stamped, I will get the graphics polished up.
AndyDufresne wrote:Still looking good.


--Andy

Cheers.
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