Re: 1v1: Promontory Summit [10.3.14] BETA

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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:09 pm

danwar wrote:I would definitely try it out, but not sure if I would play it frequently if it's just luck-based. I am to scared to lose points :-|

thanks for commenting danwar....but is not everyone game on CC based on die and therefore luck based. I can understand you reluctant. :)
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:11 pm

codierose wrote:cool neut bashing i would try out for sure
would like a way to hit the other side a bit like a spy on arms race or a cross section where you attack them.

thanks for commenting codierose. :)
I like the positive involvement you've given...feedback on how to possibly improve the map, and i';ll do something towards implementing something in that realm. :)
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:13 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:Before I give my opinion on this one I would just like to say that I'm not a fan of rail maps but I understand that a lot of people are into these types and I'll do my best not to let my personal preferences affect my judgment.
I think the map is nice and easy to read/understand. Also I LOVE the idea of competing railroads/old west. If I were a fan of rail maps this would most likely be the one I would choose, mainly because of aesthetics/theme.

Funkyterrance wrote:I just realized I was only looking at half of the map lol!
I think this is a great idea, a rail map that is a race to one point! I don't play rail maps but is this the first time this has been done?
Cairns, I'll play you in this map once it's launched. :D

thanks for your comments FT. :)
once launched...i'm sure we'll get there...done deal! ;)
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby Oneyed on Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:38 pm

hmm, rare idea. looks interesting, but yes this game is much based on lucky. lets finish it and lets see how much it will be played...

autodeploy means that X-Y autodeploy? so no random deployment bonus?

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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby generalhead on Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:02 pm

I love the look of this map it is an uber cool concept.
I have a couple of comments though if you don't mind
The attacking in a straight line seems odd to me, but that might be that it is such a unique concept that I am not use to it.
can you make a map only 1v1 or will this be played 2,3,4,5,6,7 and 8 players too? How will game play for other than 1v1 be ok
There were no side rails on this railway that would give a few more options for optional bonus's? might make players to have to make a decision, go straight for the goal or try and pick up more bonus along the way.
I would not want another Route 66 just a thought to have a few up and down territories in a straight line to give you a +1 bonus
if this will be more than a 1v1 that might help balance out game play also.
The spy thing might be cool too to give one side a chance to bombard the other side to add to game play. That way there is a little more interaction and it is not just a race through the neutrals.
Didn't the transcontinental railroad go from east coast to west coast with more off shoot rails on the east coast or do I have the wrong railroad.
To end, I think new concept maps are great, I It seems like we have so many maps that have the same game play that it is refreshing to see a unique map here and there. New concept maps might be the hardest to get across to people though due to this is a new concept.
These are all mainly questions, you have a lot more experience with map making than myself. I know working on my 1 lonely map that I am working
on when people ask questions or make comments it might not be things that I will use but it my get the gears working in my head and give me a new way to look at my own map.
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby Catarah on Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:14 pm

interesting.

because you use autodeploy, with either chained or adjacent, it will be rather important how fast you conquer territs. it might be fun to have some higher and some lower deploy along the way, so the line will be like: +1, +1, +3, +0, +1,+2,+1,+2. then it becomes even more important if you decide to conquer more countries, or stay at the +3 for a while for extra supplies.
if you play with spoils you also have to worry about when you take spoils and when you use them.
third, it is very unfavorable to start attacking the golden spike itself, as you´ll be wasting troops on those neutrals, while your enemy can then waste his troops on you.

spies would also make the game a lot more interesting. have several of them along the route, and the more they are able to bombard, the higher their starting neutrals are, and the further along the route they are placed(and ofc. they're not on the main route, but diversions of the main route, so you can ignore them if you want).



other then that, i hope the xml supports 2-player games, i thought 2P games were counted as 3p games with 1 neutral player, so only 2 starting points would be too little.
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:50 pm

Oneyed wrote:hmm, rare idea. looks interesting, but yes this game is much based on lucky. lets finish it and lets see how much it will be played...
autodeploy means that X-Y autodeploy? so no random deployment bonus?
Oneyed

thanks for your comment Oneyed :)
Yes, it is somewhat luck based as are all CC maps...you can have all the strategy you want, but if you don't get the die to go your way top accompany that strategy, you're stuffed. So in that respect, this is no different except for minimal strategy options.
random deployment? i guess you mean the 3 troops deployed at beginning of your turn...at bottom of map...maximum deploy is +1, not +3....so you can only deploy +1.
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:00 pm

generalhead wrote:...can you make a map only 1v1 or will this be played 2,3,4,5,6,7 and 8 players too?

if there are only two starting terts and every other tert is neutral, then no there is not option for 3,4,5,6,7,8 players.

How will game play for other than 1v1 be ok
defunct!

There were no side rails on this railway that would give a few more options for optional bonus's? might make players to have to make a decision, go straight for the goal or try and pick up more bonus along the way.

from what i understand, no there were not other railways on the side.

I would not want another Route 66 just a thought to have a few up and down territories in a straight line to give you a +1 bonus

that's why this was devised as a 1v1 2 player map with autodeploy.

The spy thing might be cool too to give one side a chance to bombard the other side to add to game play. That way there is a little more interaction and it is not just a race through the neutrals.

Yes and i am working on the concept of spy and bombardment to lift the gameplay slightly.

Didn't the transcontinental railroad go from east coast to west coast with more off shoot rails on the east coast or do I have the wrong railroad.

Yes but that transcontinental wasn't enabled until this section of the railroad was built.
No you don't have the wrong railroad, but the wrong time frame, and i have used the wrong terminology in that i should not have used transcontinental. i will adjust that.

To end, I think new concept maps are great, I It seems like we have so many maps that have the same game play that it is refreshing to see a unique map here and there. New concept maps might be the hardest to get across to people though due to this is a new concept.
These are all mainly questions, you have a lot more experience with map making than myself. I know working on my 1 lonely map that I am working
on when people ask questions or make comments it might not be things that I will use but it my get the gears working in my head and give me a new way to look at my own map.

generalhead, i appreciate what you say, and by keeping an open mind you will enable the possibilities of creativity to be expanded. this is turn expands the pie.
but you have to learn the basics first and i see you are well on your way with that firwst map.
appreciate you commenting. :)
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:07 pm

Catarah wrote:interesting.

thank-you for dropping in Catarah... :)

because you use autodeploy, with either chained or adjacent, it will be rather important how fast you conquer territs.

very true...in that sense some strategy will be involved.

it might be fun to have some higher and some lower deploy along the way, so the line will be like: +1, +1, +3, +0, +1,+2,+1,+2. then it becomes even more important if you decide to conquer more countries, or stay at the +3 for a while for extra supplies.

yes, and at present towards that, there are the differing autodeploy bonuses on the map for differing sections, but i will keep in mind you idea for alternation. and if i forget, please don't hesitate to remind me.

if you play with spoils you also have to worry about when you take spoils and when you use them.

of course.

third, it is very unfavorable to start attacking the golden spike itself, as you´ll be wasting troops on those neutrals, while your enemy can then waste his troops on you.
in that sense the strategy would be to assault the golden spike when your opponent has least troops or no spoils to use.

spies would also make the game a lot more interesting. have several of them along the route, and the more they are able to bombard, the higher their starting neutrals are, and the further along the route they are placed(and ofc. they're not on the main route, but diversions of the main route, so you can ignore them if you want).

yes, devlopment of kind is happening for spies.

other then that, i hope the xml supports 2-player games, i thought 2P games were counted as 3p games with 1 neutral player, so only 2 starting points would be too little.

yes i would simply have to check that, but there can only be 3 divisor if there are 3 starting spaces, i think.
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [12.12.12] V2 - Draft

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:14 pm

Version 2.

I have added the concept of spies or sabateurs (bombardments) being able to destroy bridges.
Essentially this still becomes a race where you have to achieve the objective of the golden spike and holding all you railroad line, but your opponent can have a go at you to stop you.
Fort up those bridges when you reach them!
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby isaiah40 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:15 pm

Just a wild idea here cairns. What if you just had the autodeploy on Sacramento and Omaha as the only troops you get? This will replicate the bringing in of supplies and men. Also I know that the building of the RR had its problems. If I remember correctly, the Union Pacific had Indian raids while the Central Pacific had problems with land slides etc. Maybe you can add in some killer neutrals to replicate that? Oh maybe have 3 or 4 spikes at Promontory Point. If I remember from just recently reading on it, they used an iron spike, a silver one, the gold one and I can't remember if they used a fourth or not. Each spike represented something. Just my $0.02 rambling. It might make the game a little more interesting.
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:23 pm

isaiah40 wrote:Just a wild idea here cairns. What if you just had the autodeploy on Sacramento and Omaha as the only troops you get? This will replicate the bringing in of supplies and men. Also I know that the building of the RR had its problems. If I remember correctly, the Union Pacific had Indian raids while the Central Pacific had problems with land slides etc. Maybe you can add in some killer neutrals to replicate that? Oh maybe have 3 or 4 spikes at Promontory Point. If I remember from just recently reading on it, they used an iron spike, a silver one, the gold one and I can't remember if they used a fourth or not. Each spike represented something. Just my $0.02 rambling. It might make the game a little more interesting.

isaiah40, that's the sort of input that makes me smile...all creating further gameplay options....far more than $0.02 worth. thank-you.
not sure what i can use yet but let me think on it. :)
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [12.12.12] V2 - With Spies

Postby Jippd on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:40 pm

Not sure if I like the overall idea of a map that is as linear as this one is. Sure it is easy for people that don't want to use strategy and just roll some dice. To me that is not what risk is about though. It is about strategy and decision making with luck involved. I also don't like the idea of a map that is only playable for 1 v 1. Is there special coding in the site now that will not allow people to make this map anything but 1 v 1 if it did get released?

Also the bonus structure doesn't seem to make complete sense and could probably use some tweaking. I'd much rather start on the left and get +2 auto deploys to start for taking a n3 as opposed to starting on the right and getting +1 for killing n2. Especially in trench mode it would be very unbalanced.

This map reminds me of the st patricks day map and if any of you have played it we all know how fun and challenging that map is. (sarcasm)

Just my honest opinion.

If there were more dimensions as others have mentioned I think I would be more open to this idea
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [12.12.12] V2 - With Spies

Postby cairnswk on Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:54 pm

Jippd wrote:Not sure if I like the overall idea of a map that is as linear as this one is. Sure it is easy for people that don't want to use strategy and just roll some dice. To me that is not what risk is about though. It is about strategy and decision making with luck involved. I also don't like the idea of a map that is only playable for 1 v 1. Is there special coding in the site now that will not allow people to make this map anything but 1 v 1 if it did get released?

Also the bonus structure doesn't seem to make complete sense and could probably use some tweaking. I'd much rather start on the left and get +2 auto deploys to start for taking a n3 as opposed to starting on the right and getting +1 for killing n2. Especially in trench mode it would be very unbalanced.

This map reminds me of the st patricks day map and if any of you have played it we all know how fun and challenging that map is. (sarcasm)

Just my honest opinion.

If there were more dimensions as others have mentioned I think I would be more open to this idea

thanks jippd for those comments... :)
which of the other dimensions would you like to see implemented?
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [12.12.12] V2 - With Spies

Postby isaiah40 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:01 pm

cairnswk wrote:
Jippd wrote:Not sure if I like the overall idea of a map that is as linear as this one is. Sure it is easy for people that don't want to use strategy and just roll some dice. To me that is not what risk is about though. It is about strategy and decision making with luck involved. I also don't like the idea of a map that is only playable for 1 v 1. Is there special coding in the site now that will not allow people to make this map anything but 1 v 1 if it did get released?

Also the bonus structure doesn't seem to make complete sense and could probably use some tweaking. I'd much rather start on the left and get +2 auto deploys to start for taking a n3 as opposed to starting on the right and getting +1 for killing n2. Especially in trench mode it would be very unbalanced.

This map reminds me of the st patricks day map and if any of you have played it we all know how fun and challenging that map is. (sarcasm)

Just my honest opinion.

If there were more dimensions as others have mentioned I think I would be more open to this idea

thanks jippd for those comments... :)
which of the other dimensions would you like to see implemented?

All of them!! :lol:
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [12.12.12] V2 - With Spies

Postby Seamus76 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:16 pm

A map like this, you know, some times you just want to roll the dice, and not think about all the other stuff. Ahh, but there is other stuff...deciding when to attack, how much to attack, when to stop, etc. are all strategies. To say there is no strategy or this is just neutral bashing is like saying Treasures of Galapagos is the same way, which we all know it is not.
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [12.12.12] V2 - With Spies

Postby LLLUUUKKKEEE on Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:12 am

Seamus76 wrote:A map like this, you know, some times you just want to roll the dice, and not think about all the other stuff. Ahh, but there is other stuff...deciding when to attack, how much to attack, when to stop, etc. are all strategies. To say there is no strategy or this is just neutral bashing is like saying Treasures of Galapagos is the same way, which we all know it is not.

I agree totally, plenty of maps have killer nuetrals and people like them.
We do need a 1v1 map, i.e. a race. I understand your theme based on only 1 route to travel and it will work. Yes it will involve strategy as to say stack on Promontory Points or attack.

And I think auto deploy on sacremto and Omaha would be great.
I can see this being a great advantage to players who dont miss ther turn (purpose or not).

And i am sick of the complicated maps( waterloo, stalingrad etc). This is a quick fire fun map.

Well done cairnswk......................... again!
It's your turn...................................
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [11.12.12] V1 - Draft

Postby Oneyed on Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:29 am

cairnswk wrote:random deployment? i guess you mean the 3 troops deployed at beginning of your turn...at bottom of map...maximum deploy is +1, not +3....so you can only deploy +1.


no. I mean if you get +2 for Sacramento - Reno, or if each station gets +2 auto.

I agree that all maps are based on lucky. yes also strategy is important on some maps, but it is still lucky for example if you can not beat 3 troops with 11...

the bonus structure is unbalanced, I think. because this is 1v1 game and because strategy here has low role add to each player the same (or very similar) position.

Sacramento-Reno: 7 regions to beat, 21 neutrals. then you get +16 units.
Omaha-Chayenne: 8 regions to beat, 19 neutrals. here you get +9 units.

the big difference, I think.

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Re: Race to Promontory Point [12.12.12] V2 - With Spies

Postby koontz1973 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:41 am

Alright cairns, make sure you send a PM to nobodies for 1v1 approval then. Seems like a few want this in the stable of maps.
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [12.12.12] V2 - With Spies

Postby Funkyterrance on Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:50 am

If this was just another rail map I would totally agree that it would be a waste of energy but yeah this one looks very interesting/unique to me. Besides, there's this weird psychological thing about attacking neuts that makes you sometimes abandon your reason since they aren't actual players. It takes composure to fight neuts!
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [12.12.12] V2 - With Spies

Postby codierose on Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:37 am

not sure they had spies in them days could it be raiding Indians or train robbers just thoughts
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [12.12.12] V2 - With Spies

Postby cairnswk on Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:50 am

codierose wrote:not sure they had spies in them days could it be raiding Indians or train robbers just thoughts


Because of the nature of the way money was given to the companies building the railroad, they were sometimes known to sabotage each other's railroads to claim that land as their own.
- Perkins, J. R. (2003). "CENTRAL PACIFIC–UNION PACIFIC RACE". Encyclopedia.com. Retrieved 2010-04-24 for inclusion in Wikipedia

From the beginning, then, the building of the transcontinental railroad was set up in terms of a competition between the two companies...

Dangers and Difficulties

After General Grenville Dodge, a hero of the Union Army, took control as chief engineer, the Union Pacific finally began to move westward in May 1866. The company suffered bloody attacks on its workers by Native Americans--including members of the Sioux, Arapaho and Cheyenne tribes--who were understandably threatened by the progress of the white man and his "iron horse" across their native lands. Still, the Union Pacific moved relatively quickly across the plains, compared to the slow progress of their rival company through the Sierra. Ramshackle settlements popped up wherever the railroad went, turning into hotbeds of drinking, gambling, prostitution and violence and producing the enduring mythology of the "Wild West."

In 1865, after struggling with retaining workers due to the difficulty of the labor, Charles Crocker (who was in charge of construction for the Central Pacific) began hiring Chinese laborers. By that time, some 50,000 Chinese immigrants were living on the West Coast, many having arrived during the Gold Rush. This was controversial at the time, as the Chinese were considered an inferior race due to pervasive racism. The Chinese laborers proved to be tireless workers, and Crocker hired more of them; some 14,000 were toiling under brutal working conditions in the Sierra Nevada by early 1867. (By contrast, the work force of the Union Pacific was mainly Irish immigrants and Civil War veterans.) To blast through the mountains, the Central Pacific built huge wooden trestles on the western slopes and used gunpowder and nitroglycerine to blast tunnels through the granite.

http://www.history.com/topics/transcontinental-railroad
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [12.12.12] V2 - With Spies

Postby nolefan5311 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:00 am

Just a quick note cairns, the actual junction of the two railroads was called Promontory Summit.
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [12.12.12] V2 - With Spies

Postby cairnswk on Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:10 am

nolefan5311 wrote:Just a quick note cairns, the actual junction of the two railroads was called Promontory Summit.

yes i noticed, i'll change that :)
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Re: Race to Promontory Point [12.12.12] V2 - With Spies

Postby cairnswk on Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:10 pm

Seamus76 wrote:A map like this, you know, some times you just want to roll the dice, and not think about all the other stuff. Ahh, but there is other stuff...deciding when to attack, how much to attack, when to stop, etc. are all strategies. To say there is no strategy or this is just neutral bashing is like saying Treasures of Galapagos is the same way, which we all know it is not.

Yes, there's a couple of maps where neutral bashing is required, and i agree, there is some strategy involved.
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