[Abandoned] - Zombie Invasion!

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Re: Zombieland- Version 1.2

Postby MarshalNey on Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:08 pm

Top Dog wrote:I like how you are showing the zombies in the streets, even though not through territories, but through graphics. Maybe even try adding more, just to really represent the mass of zombies...


It could use a few more, couldn't it? I'll get on that.

Top Dog wrote:I'd say you could try making the street connections a red, although I think the pink/purple would work too...

b00kw0rm wrote:Make them red. Then it'll look like trails of blood


Yes... I think maybe trying to make the connections into blood trails rather than purplish veins might work. I'll see what I can whip up.

Top Dog wrote:I just now noticed the blood spatters... I like the idea but maybe they could be worked on a bit... not anything big... just something I noticed... I was thinking more like blood smears... maybe try adding a few inside an entrance of some of the buildings... just an idea of course...


You just noticed the blood spatters? Oh dear, I'll have to use more :twisted:

If I make the connections into blood trails, then having a smear lead inside would only be natural- I'll see how it looks.

Top Dog wrote:I'll take a look later and see if there's anything I can nit-pick on lol... It sounds mean but nit-picking is what get's stuff done...


Truer words were never spoken. Thanks for taking the time to nitpick, keep it coming.
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Re: Zombieland- Version 1.2

Postby MarshalNey on Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:15 pm

DukeWellington wrote:Awesome map! I can't wait to play it!


Ah, Duke... thanks for popping in and taking a look. Is there anything specifically that you like about the map? If I could only keep one thing, what would your vote be?

I really appreciate the feedback and hope to hear more of your opinions (hopefully in the near future :))
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Re: Zombieland- Version 1.2

Postby b00kw0rm on Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:28 pm

I notice that there's a room called Fire Escape in the bottom-center. You could make the fire-escape one of the exits to connect that building to the bottom-right.
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Re: Zombieland- Version 1.2

Postby MarshalNey on Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:26 pm

Yes.... you're right, that's a perfect spot for an entrance. I originally had one there in fact, then took it out ages ago. Guess I might end up adding it back in... whoops #-o
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Re: Zombieland- Version 1.2

Postby Memnon on Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:12 pm

Marshal, I've read all the notes here and think you're on the right track. A few points I'd like to touch on, and maybe some help on names...

1. Stategos - while I didn't originally have any issue with the name, after someone else mentioned it, I don't like it much either. It's supposed to be the academy building yes? So here's a few name options. Professors, Mad Scientists (you find more of these than mad doctors, but then you're finding another name for them...meh), Nerds! (admit it...we all are), The engineers? Just a few thoughts for you to mull and take you in a different direction than staregos...

2. Don't think about Bad/Good groups, I agree with TD in the fact that they should remain in the gray and not take the road to Disney.

3. Helicopter pad - I like the helicopter idea, but bigger. I know scale is all wrong, but I'd like to see a chopper that takes up the space of 1/4 of the pad. You know, about as big as one section, but maybe positioned in between two, like the middle of the bottom section would be a good spot to drop one. Good luck on the graphical end of that...I'm no help there.

4. More zombies on the street - I couldn't agree more. You say it's too busy, and cramped Marshal, I disagree. I think if you added a few more here and there it would be fine. Maybe give us an example (do you still have the old paint file laying around?). More zombies, more blood. It doesn't feel like a horde yet - more like a small gaming group gone wrong.

5. The building walls are fine in my opinion. I've seen some maps before where the defining lines were difficult and I couldn't tell if I could be attacked or not. Here, you can tell. I think attempting to redefining the walls would be overly critical at this point. (But gods do something about that purple line in the streets! We hates it precious)

Ok Marshal, you've convinced me once again to put time and effort into the map your designing. This is what I can give you for now, I'll check back in later.

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Re: Zombieland- Version 1.2

Postby MarshalNey on Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:03 am

Memnon wrote:...So here's a few name options. Professors, Mad Scientists (you find more of these than mad doctors, but then you're finding another name for them...meh), Nerds! (admit it...we all are), The engineers? Just a few thoughts for you to mull and take you in a different direction than staregos...


'Staregos'? Sounds like a futuristic brand of snack food.... mmmmm... pass the staregos, honey. :lol:

Anyway, you're right of course. "Strategos" was sort of a fill-in name to get the idea across, until the creative juices came up with something better. Unfortunately, my juices aren't flowing like they ought....

"Professors" and "Nerds" don't sound mighty enough to win against a pack of arthritic nuns, let alone a horde of undead... I dunno. "Intellectacons" is my best brainstorm idea... sure, they might come from outer space, but they're more than meets the eye (sigh)

Memnon wrote:2. Don't think about Bad/Good groups, I agree with TD in the fact that they should remain in the gray and not take the road to Disney.


Duly noted, I concur... it was just a novel thought that tickled me.

Memnon wrote:3. Helicopter pad - I like the helicopter idea, but bigger. I know scale is all wrong, but I'd like to see a chopper that takes up the space of 1/4 of the pad. You know, about as big as one section, but maybe positioned in between two, like the middle of the bottom section would be a good spot to drop one...


Hmmm... I'll put it on my list of' possible to do's... I'm really not as concerned about the graphical polishing as getting the concept and general look first, so this will probably wait until I get the zombies themselves positioned to everyone's satisfaction.

Memnon wrote:4. More zombies on the street - I couldn't agree more. You say it's too busy, and cramped Marshal, I disagree. I think if you added a few more here and there it would be fine. Maybe give us an example (do you still have the old paint file laying around?). More zombies, more blood. It doesn't feel like a horde yet - more like a small gaming group gone wrong.


Heh, gaming group you say? I guess one of them found the Necronomicon and decided to use it for LARPing...

Anyway, I get that Helix, et al., want the streets flooded with zombie territories. I just like how the gameplay stands right now, and I'd hate to mess around with it just for looks- after all, isn't that what graphics are for? If I knew that these suggestions were for gameplay reasons, rather than image, I'd be more inclined to yield on this point. On the other hand, as I pointed out in a previous post, I really can't increase the territories as dramatically as Helix wanted, because most of them would serve almost no gameplay purpose whatsoever and would sacrifice a great deal of potential flavor.

At best, I could perhaps double the number of zombie territories in the streets and still keep some semblance of flavor and gameplay.

I'm working on adding flavor graphics with bloody trails for routes and small depictions of zombies, although it's going slowly so I may have to just sumbit a revision that is less than decent just to keep everyone in the loop.

If anyone cares to comment on the sample that I posted, at least as far as the format goes (too small, too confusing, not enough, etc.) I would be most grateful.

Memnon wrote:Ok Marshal, you've convinced me once again to put time and effort into the map your designing. This is what I can give you for now, I'll check back in later.


Much appreciated, M-non. Thanks for the specific feedback. May I suggest that you check out some other maps while you're strolling the forum? All of the mapmakers here are pretty receptive to any kind of comment (except for "you suck," I suppose, but that's hardly surprising ;))
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Re: Zombieland- Version 1.2

Postby Memnon on Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:37 am

whoops -

I only read the first page, then noticed just after I hit submit that there were 3 pages of notes, one of which was your updated "zombie" look. Too small in my opinion. In the blown up picture you can barely see what they are, some people play on screens smaller than my 22" monstrosity, so I can't imagine them getting the graphical beauty from those tiny zombies.

I'm not asking you to put in dozens of zombies in between like Helix, I agree that would take too much away from game play - especially since you're making them killer neutrals (and then zombie neutrals later on....oh what problems you'd have then...eek!). But double might be something to play around with. It's not exactly game-play related, but not just graphical either....more map flavor I suppose. Like I said, it doesn't have the "zombie hordes" feel yet - game-play wise.

Staregos....I'm not allowed a typo from time to time?

I'd love to see the current sample (and maybe the old one?? via email??) - and don't use "intellectacons", oof; let's see if we can come up with something better first, like dork butt central - anything is better than Intellectacons.
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Re: Zombieland- Version 1.2

Postby b00kw0rm on Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:39 am

How about "Tacticians"?
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Re: Zombieland- Version 1.2

Postby TaCktiX on Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:02 am

b00kw0rm wrote:How about "Tacticians"?

I like it, I like it! [/self-effacingcomment]

As for the new zombie horde, I don't think there are enough. Have the horde surrounding the entire army circle and it should be good.
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Re: Zombieland- Version 1.2

Postby CaronylKluster on Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:46 pm

I think your making precise improvements that polish the map. I hope to see this in the queue soon.
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Re: Zombieland- Version 1.2

Postby MarshalNey on Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:45 pm

Sorry that I've been so long to post- the map has been slow going this week.

An updated version is now posted at the beginning of the thread, along with a new set of questions.

Changes:
1) Street routes are now red... and sort of blood-trail-esque
2) Added in 4 zombie hero pictures. They might be a bit too tiny to appreciate. I swear, though, at 2x magnification they look okay. 8-[
3) Added in little zombie shades around the street territories. There's an alternate version on the Killing Zone in the lower lefthand corner.
4) Changed "Strategos" to "Tacticians"... it's the better of the two I think, more direct.
5) Added some rough highlights to the item names.
6) Increased the Faction name font size.
7) Redid a few walls and army circle positions (fiddling)

Questions:
1) Number of zombie territories- acceptable with graphics? (they can be improved)
2) Zombie pictures- good, bad, what do they need?
3) Street connections- good or bad? I left different styles of trails into the buildings, some go all the way, some stop before entering, etc. Which (if any) is best?

Thanks everyone for your advice and interest so far.

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Re: Zombieland- Version 1.2

Postby MarshalNey on Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:49 pm

CaronylKluster wrote:I think your making precise improvements that polish the map. I hope to see this in the queue soon.


Whoa, CK, how'd I miss this post? Sorry to take so long to respond...

Thanks for the vote of confidence- is there something specific that you like? What would you consider the 'essence' of this map (so far) and what could be changed/discarded?

Any advice, criticism or opinion you might have is much appreciated.
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Re: Zombieland- Version 1.2

Postby natty dread on Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:19 am

Click image to enlarge.
image


I like the blood trails... this map is really getting somewhere. I think this should be moved to gp workshop by now.

The buildings look a bit out of place... they are so bright and clean, while the outside is dark and grungy. The contrast is a bit too heavy... Perhaps darken the buildings a bit, also could add some "rubble" in them, stuff like bullet holes or something.

Anyway, nice work.
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Re: Zombieland- Version 1.2

Postby b00kw0rm on Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:47 am

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Re: Zombieland- Version 1.2

Postby 00iCon on Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:38 am

Excellent work so far =D>

Here's my two cents:
You could make the helicopter park a secure zone instead. It is also quite large and has wasted space. Try to move the legend, maybe add more territories inside. A circle of barbed wire would probably work best, but you could use a hexagon or octagon depending on the decided territories. This allows more space for zombie territories in the streets.
You could put military personnel in the compound fending off the horde(You draw better than I ever could). Capturing some of these territories may even allow bombardment of the streets.
Here are my suggestions as pictures done in paint in >5 mins.
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Re: Zombieland- Version 1.2

Postby GreysouIe on Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:58 am

Something that would be fun is if the zombies could win. Maybe I'm just an old b-movie fan, but if the zombies would have a possible win it would add a little flavor.
Overall I like the idea, my only thoughts is that the map is a little generic in terms of being like a box. It's sort of like a rubix cube side so you have 8 factions with everyone going for the middle.
Anyway, keep on fiddling. I think you have a good idea here.
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Re: Zombieland- Version 1.2

Postby MarshalNey on Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:33 pm

natty_dread wrote:I like the blood trails... this map is really getting somewhere. I think this should be moved to gp workshop by now.

The buildings look a bit out of place... they are so bright and clean, while the outside is dark and grungy. The contrast is a bit too heavy... Perhaps darken the buildings a bit, also could add some "rubble" in them, stuff like bullet holes or something.

Anyway, nice work.


Thanks Natty. The contrast between the buildings and the outside is of course intentional, to emphasize the relative "security" of the indoors, but I like what you're suggesting here. The buildings are simple and unadorned right now, and certainly extra stuff won't make the map look less busy, but there's no harm in seeing what some battle damage could add... it might take me awhile to get to this, but I'll definitely try it out.

Hopefully you'll have the time to keep peeking in, you and Helix are great posters for maps and I really appreciate your feedback.

00iCon wrote:Here's my two cents:
You could make the helicopter park a secure zone instead. It is also quite large and has wasted space. Try to move the legend, maybe add more territories inside. A circle of barbed wire would probably work best, but you could use a hexagon or octagon depending on the decided territories. This allows more space for zombie territories in the streets.
You could put military personnel in the compound fending off the horde(You draw better than I ever could). Capturing some of these territories may even allow bombardment of the streets.


Okay this is a nice concrete suggestion (thanks for the diagram, btw). Moving the legend into the middle was actually on my original MS Paint concept sketch, but in practice I need a lot more room than the center can provide. The map is nearly at the maximum size at 840 x 765 pixels, and I still have to make a legible 'small' version. There simply won't be room for the legend and a gameplay objective, and I really want a gameplay objective in the middle (for now anyway).

Also, the idea for taking the gameplay objective is that it would allow a faction to 'escape'. The zombie hordes are supposed to be effectively endless- there's just too many zombies and too few bullets/grenades/shells. As long as I'm continuing with this thematic idea, I need there to be an escape vehicle in the center- namely helicopters.

On the other hand, I like the idea of a military-type compound- maybe a fenced off 'checkpoint' that a militia/national guard established downtown and then got overrun or abandoned? That would make the presence of the helipad make more sense, certainly. I might try adding in military hardware elements, maybe abandonded tanks and stuff. Saving space might be possible by trimming the corners, but I'll have to think about whether added zombie zones will actually add to the gameplay. After all, the zombie zones need to form linear paths, or they won't function as gauntlets and the superfulous zones will just get bypassed (see 2 pages back for the full discussion).

Good point about the center, though, I'll definitely work on upgrading it with the idea of a military outpost.

Thank you for peeking in on this thread from time to time. I hope you stick with me to the end ;)

GreysouIe wrote:Something that would be fun is if the zombies could win. Maybe I'm just an old b-movie fan, but if the zombies would have a possible win it would add a little flavor


I agree!

This map is designed partly with the Zombie Neutrals feature in mind. Zombie Neutrals are aggressive neutrals that will attack surrounding non-neutral territories. Unfortunately, until that suggestion is implemented- and it may be quite some time- it just isn't possible to have the neutrals take over the map. Sorry.

However, you could always voice your support for implementing the Zombie Neutrals as the next CC upgrade, in the Suggestions Forum.

GreysouIe wrote:Overall I like the idea, my only thoughts is that the map is a little generic in terms of being like a box. It's sort of like a rubix cube side so you have 8 factions with everyone going for the middle.
Anyway, keep on fiddling. I think you have a good idea here.


...hmmm 'generic'. Oof. Any thoughts on what you'd like to see? The layout is still flexible since this is in the Melting Pot, but I'm fairly committed to the idea of 8 starting positions (CC guidelines require every new map to support 8 players). Is there some other arrangement you had in mind?

Anyway, thanks for the support and feedback, Greysoule. Keep it coming!


NOTE: I'm updating my map with a few small changes (added in 1 zombie tert and an entrance to the Ghetto) and updated my to-do list with your suggestions. Without your feedback, this map would in limbo, so please continue to post :)
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Re: Zombieland- Version 1.2

Postby MarshalNey on Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:28 pm

Also, just to let everyone know, the current number of player territories is 63. I would like to bump that total up to 70 or 71 for much fairer drop distributions.

So far, my best idea is to add some territiories to the Helipad and some safe zones in the streets.

If anyone has any ideas about this, let me know.
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Re: Zombieland- Version 1.2

Postby 00iCon on Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:02 am

MarshalNey wrote:
00iCon wrote:

Okay this is a nice concrete suggestion (thanks for the diagram, btw). Moving the legend into the middle was actually on my original MS Paint concept sketch, but in practice I need a lot more room than the center can provide. The map is nearly at the maximum size at 840 x 765 pixels, and I still have to make a legible 'small' version. There simply won't be room for the legend and a gameplay objective, and I really want a gameplay objective in the middle (for now anyway).

Also, the idea for taking the gameplay objective is that it would allow a faction to 'escape'. The zombie hordes are supposed to be effectively endless- there's just too many zombies and too few bullets/grenades/shells. As long as I'm continuing with this thematic idea, I need there to be an escape vehicle in the center- namely helicopters.

On the other hand, I like the idea of a military-type compound- maybe a fenced off 'checkpoint' that a militia/national guard established downtown and then got overrun or abandoned? That would make the presence of the helipad make more sense, certainly. I might try adding in military hardware elements, maybe abandonded tanks and stuff. Saving space might be possible by trimming the corners, but I'll have to think about whether added zombie zones will actually add to the gameplay. After all, the zombie zones need to form linear paths, or they won't function as gauntlets and the superfulous zones will just get bypassed (see 2 pages back for the full discussion).

Good point about the center, though, I'll definitely work on upgrading it with the idea of a military outpost.

Thank you for peeking in on this thread from time to time. I hope you stick with me to the end ;)

I've been following rather closely, and I see your point.
Barbed wire around the helipad would probably be sufficient to make sensse for the helipad. Pehaps including a waiting helicopter would add to the graphical intensity.
Keeping to the topic of graphics, this map lacks a border. Again, blood or spray paint would work. Also the building's outlines are just... lines. Bricks and windows (some smashed) would look great if you can do it.
MarshalNey wrote:Also, just to let everyone know, the current number of player territories is 63. I would like to bump that total up to 70 or 71 for much fairer drop distributions.

So far, my best idea is to add some territiories to the Helipad and some safe zones in the streets.

If anyone has any ideas about this, let me know.

More helipad zones would be great and perhaps high neutral safe zones in the street should have a bonus to make them desirable.
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Re: Zombieland- Version 1.2

Postby Top Dog on Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:36 pm

00iCon wrote:More helipad zones would be great and perhaps high neutral safe zones in the street should have a bonus to make them desirable.


I always liked in the map "Space" how the wormhole and warp gate systems were kind of like a side bonus that connected the map. I like the idea of the safe zones, w/ a bonus... maybe make a "manhole system" acting just like the warp gate/wormhole systems in Space.

Just going out on a limb here... (if you haven't seen/played the map Space check it out first...) Maybe outside of 5 of the buildings we have a connected underground "dungeon system" running across the map (the symbol could be something like stairs heading underground). That would be worth maybe 3 or so for a bonus. Then outside the 3 other buildings have an underground "manhole system" that would be worth 2 or so...

They wouldn't have to be right outside of the building and there wouldn't have to be eight either but I think that would add to the zombie feeling a bit more.

It's kind of a ripoff of space's gameplay but that would be just one small aspect of zombieland. Lemme know if you like the idea marshal...
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Re: Zombieland- Version 1.2

Postby MarshalNey on Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:28 pm

Top Dog wrote: ...I always liked in the map "Space" how the wormhole and warp gate systems were kind of like a side bonus that connected the map. I like the idea of the safe zones, w/ a bonus... maybe make a "manhole system" acting just like the warp gate/wormhole systems in Space...

...It's kind of a ripoff of space's gameplay but that would be just one small aspect of zombieland. Lemme know if you like the idea marshal...


I do like it. In fact, I vaguely toyed with a less-developed idea when I was doing my original concept sketch.

The thing is... my map is reaching a saturation point. Maybe 00iconn is right, this really should be a sequence of 2 or 3 maps. Anyway, every new 'feature' of the map must be documented in the legend somewhere. When I go to the small version, players will need a microscope to read the instructions as it is.

There's also an additional problem. 'Warp gates' as a gameplay feature are directly in conflict with my core idea of 'Zombie gauntlets'. What's the point of wading through zombie territories when you can just skip over all of them?

Soooo, if I did implement a 'manhole system', it wouldn't really be a set of warp points, I'm thinking... probably just a group of territories that lead to an inset of a underground zombie gauntlet. In other words, it'd be an alternate set of paths to the streets, but you'd still have to run through zombies.

Overall I dunno, I have to think about it. There's certainly a fair amount of "wasted" space in this map. However, I already feel like it's too busy, so maybe cramming more into the map isn't a good idea.

It could be great, though. ;)
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Re: Zombieland- Version 1.2

Postby b00kw0rm on Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:11 am

Quick question... Are the zombie territories in the entrances to some buildings currently counted as part of that building for bonus purposes? If so, it would be impossible to collect their bonuses, as they would revert to neutral before you could collect the bonus.
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Re: Zombieland- Version 1.2

Postby natty dread on Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:05 am

Obviously they are not, then.
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Re: Zombieland- Version 1.2

Postby Memnon on Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:42 am

Time for my 3 cents again.

GreysouIe wrote:Something that would be fun is if the zombies could win. Maybe I'm just an old b-movie fan, but if the zombies would have a possible win it would add a little flavor.


While you can't have the neutrals actually take over at this point ol'Marshal my boy - what about a turn limit to represent this. Not sure if CC programming can support the idea, but what about

- If no team has won by turn ** - the game ends in a draw and the Zombies prevail.... :twisted: you have all died due to your inaction.:twisted: -

@Bookworm - I'm not sure on the fact that zombie terts are considered part of the building, but there is one point you have wrong. The bonuses are calculated before zombie neutrals revert (this according to an earlier post by Marshal I believe), therefore you could take a set of "bonuses" cash in extra troops, and loose them to zombies all in the same turn.

GreysouIe wrote:Overall I like the idea, my only thoughts is that the map is a little generic in terms of being like a box. It's sort of like a rubix cube side so you have 8 factions with everyone going for the middle.
Anyway, keep on fiddling. I think you have a good idea here.


Not sure I agree, but Marshal you seemed to slightly, so what if you took parts of the map and .... twisted? it so that you had crooked streets. I have 0 paint and photoshoppy type skills - lets take the rubics example. It would be like taking the rubics and breaking it so that instead of the bricks all being even, they'd look more like steps. Then your streets would end up looking more like zig-zags instead of straight lines.

[] []
[]

But squish the bottom box up half way .... am I coming across; or do I sound like some mental patient?

That's all for now
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Re: Zombieland- Version 1.2

Postby natty dread on Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:01 am

what about a turn limit to represent this.


impossible.
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