[Abandoned] - Russian Revolution

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Re: Russian Revolution 5/9 p. 1

Postby iancanton on Wed May 12, 2010 4:49 pm

are u thinking of doing it conquest-style, with 8 (or 24) strategic positions to start?

ian. :)
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Re: Russian Revolution 5/9 p. 1

Postby Industrial Helix on Thu May 13, 2010 12:18 pm

I'm thinking 8 strategic starting positions (the commanders) with the remaining territories open to random deployment.

I have a few considerations in mind at the moment:

1) The high population zone... should it start with 4 men on each territory and 3 men on each normal territory (or perhaps 3 High pop, 2 low pop)?
2) The points that a commander attacks: should they start at a low number or perhaps neutral 1 or no difference at all?
3) Should the high population zone also have starting neutrals to make it an even deployment: I bump it up to 24 high population zones and each player gets 3 territories in the high pop zone.
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Re: Russian Revolution 5/9 p. 1

Postby AndyDufresne on Sun May 16, 2010 12:04 am

Industrial Helix wrote:I'm thinking 8 strategic starting positions (the commanders) with the remaining territories open to random deployment.

I have a few considerations in mind at the moment:

1) The high population zone... should it start with 4 men on each territory and 3 men on each normal territory (or perhaps 3 High pop, 2 low pop)?

What are the main pros for higher values vs lower values?


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Re: Russian Revolution 5/9 p. 1

Postby Industrial Helix on Sun May 16, 2010 1:28 pm

I think I know what you mean but let me know if this doesnt answer your question.

In the higher population zones, there's more people. Therefore it seems logical to me that they should have more armies to start with. This also serves the purpose of preventing a player from getting a first turn advantage as it makes it difficult to take away a bonus form another person (unless I up the bonus for high pop zones to 4 and give everyone three territories). It also makes the area more dense and more difficult to execute a quick strike early in the game. On the downside, given that a player has so many men in the area, the commanders might lose value, save for Trotsky, and come into play only after the initial battles in the high pop zones have been won.

The advantages of the lower numbers are that it allows for rapid movement in the lower populated areas, true to the military history of the war, and this is especially true if there are only two men on each territory rather than 3. It also gives the commanders outside of the high pop zone a place to build men and counter more central commanders, such as Trotsky or Deniken.
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Re: Russian Revolution 5/9 p. 1

Postby AndyDufresne on Sun May 16, 2010 4:23 pm

From what you've described, I think I'd see myself falling on the lower-value side of support.


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Re: Russian Revolution 5/9 p. 1

Postby jasnostj on Mon May 17, 2010 7:22 am

I like this, but that shouldn't come as a surprise to you, Comrade!

One small thing: I wouldn't crop Poland and the Baltics in the west. Looks a bit messy.
And I would do the high population territories in a different way than with that orange border, for example a darker shade of brown. Before reading the key I though it had to do with a communist zone of control or something.
But I understand these graphics are only a draft anyway (quite a good-looking draft!).
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Re: Russian Revolution 5/9 p. 1

Postby Dako on Mon May 17, 2010 7:35 am

I can help you with proper namings of the cities if you want. I don't know if it matters in GP, but PM me if you want some advices from a Russian CCer.

Cannot say anything on GP yet.
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Re: Russian Revolution 5/9 p. 1

Postby jasnostj on Mon May 17, 2010 2:54 pm

Looky here, a Russian on CC! Go and have a peek at the Stalingrad map in Final Forge. That thing has a whole bunch of mistakes that I told the mapmaker (the legendary Cairns) about but he won't correct them. Says he doesn't think many Russians visit this site. Prove him wrong!

I saw one here too: Vologda (the city) misspelled "Volgada".
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Re: Russian Revolution 5/9 p. 1

Postby Dako on Mon May 17, 2010 3:15 pm

Vologda is the correct name. But Nijny was named Gorky at the tiems of war (we still have the old name on railway tickets tbh).

PS - posted at Stalingrad map :).
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Re: Russian Revolution 5/9 p. 1

Postby jasnostj on Wed May 19, 2010 9:04 am

Nizhny (with a y) Novgorod ("Lower Newcity") was called Gorky from 1932, so not during the civil war.
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Re: Russian Revolution 5/9 p. 1

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed May 19, 2010 3:24 pm

Hey guys, i appreciate the help with the names. I already PMed Dako about the names and expect I should be getting a list sometime in the future. Just keep posting the revisions here and I'll hit them up with an update when I get the chance... I just wanted you to know I was reading and paying attention ;) Thanks again!
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Re: Russian Revolution 5/9 p. 1

Postby theBastard on Wed May 19, 2010 3:29 pm

Helix, what about add High population also to any regions in Ukraina? I think Kiev Oblast, Kharkovskij, maybe Chernigov should have it...
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Re: Russian Revolution 5/9 p. 1

Postby Evil DIMwit on Wed May 19, 2010 3:51 pm

A) Please put the latest version of the map in the first post. I almost listed a bunch of things for you to fix that you've already addressed.

B) I think however you plan deployment on the high-population territories you can't prevent the first player from having a dramatic advantage in those areas. This is just a problem that plagues collection bonuses. The usual solution is to have specific neutral-starting territories that unlock the collection bonus (that's what they did in Napoleonic Europe, and Ian and I suggested it for Switzerland). So, for example, start the commanders neutral and only let a player get the high-pop bonus if they hold a commander. Or start the cities neutral and only let players get benefit from high-population territories if they own a city in that or a neighboring territory.

C) There doesn't seem to be a way to reach the British Navy.

D) Please put the railroads in the legend somewhere.
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Re: Russian Revolution 5/9 p. 1

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed May 19, 2010 10:06 pm

@ thebastard... In general I agree. But I'm stuck cause Ukraine has its own bonus... I dunno, I need to figure this out. Any suggestions appreciated.

@Evil Dim

1) Damn... sorry about that
2) Good idea... I will try to figure something out for this then.
3) ... Good point.
4) Will do.
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Re: Russian Revolution 5/9 p. 1

Postby lt_oddball on Tue May 25, 2010 4:00 am

I will like this map.

a) Though I question why the two british invasion troops should be awarded (relatively) high bonustroops.
Their actual numbers were first of all small (non effective fighting/occupation/control forces on territory scale), and secondly they were never renewed or refreshed. So the idea of making those two points an auto- bonus area is a bit un-historical.
Game-map-wise it does fill a need and makes the map interesting.

Maybe you should consider the auto-bonus of the two british forces only effective when some other territory is under the player's control (like "player should control "british admiralty AND 6th battalion to receive +1 bonus" or "player should control BOTH british navy AND 6th battalion to receive +1 on both locations per turn).


b) There are railway lines on the map.
The railways were already a very important asset in those campaigning days.. can't you incorporate some bonus / effect in your map regarding this aspect ?


c)
jasnostj wrote:Looky here, a Russian on CC! Go and have a peek at the Stalingrad map in Final Forge. That thing has a whole bunch of mistakes that I told the mapmaker (the legendary Cairns) about but he won't correct them. Says he doesn't think many Russians visit this site. Prove him wrong!

That had more to do with the very late timing of you and the other russian bloke in the game design process.
Also because many english translated russian names (or Thai, or chinese for that matter) are always disputable.
There is no absolute consistency globally.
At least in this map you are involved early, here you can have a positive effect.
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Re: Russian Revolution 5/9 p. 1

Postby natty dread on Tue May 25, 2010 5:19 am

It's been a while since I've taken a good peek at this... looking good so far! However I'd like the cities to be more important in the gameplay.

Currently you need 5 of them to get a bonus. That makes them the hardest bonus to acquire... you could easily increase their bonus a bit. I'd suggest making a dynamic scale bonus for the cities - similar to seas on my lunar map. Something like:

+3 for 5 cities
+7 for 10 cities
+11 for 15 cities
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Re: Russian Revolution 5/9 p. 1

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:32 pm

Hmm... i see what you mean. I think that I am stuck with a problem of wanting the cities to be very important to the map but then I have troubles with people starting with bonuses.

I hear you on this one and I'll play with it some. The trouble with a scale bonus is I don't have room! I'll see what I can do.

@It_oddball

1) You're right the British didn't do a whole lot except sit there. But they had the major potential to supply the whites, which the whites didn't take advantage of. But the idea is that this is where British Supplies are being dropped off, so you have to first obtain them (conquer the neutral) and then move them into the field of operations, ie reinforcements. So that's my thinking/reasoning on that, what do you think?

2) Well, i want the railways to illustrate a) the importance of Moscow in terms of connections and b) the fact that many of the white armies simply rode the railways into red territory and fought a battle rather than marched their way to the battle.

Something in terms of territory connections could be done to illustrate the connections, ie stretches of land extending in place of rail lines, but this would decrease the vital role that cities played. It would also make the land and marching, versus moving via rail, to be the same thing. Which is not what I wish to convey.

3) I'm gonna stick to as close an interpretation as possible given, hopefully, by Russians on the site. I'm not opposed to changing names even in Beta process.

@Jastnostj - The thing with Poland is that I don't want to get the Russo-Polish war too involved in the map, so hence the crop. I want to have it there to show that the Poles had an influence over the outcome of the war, but not enough to make Poland a major player in the map.

@ Evildim - The problem I have with using the commanders to unlock the high pop bonus is that I don't want commanders to start neutral. I want a player to be assigned a commander and take on that role the commander had during the war. But its a good point and one I shall think on... there's got to be a way to figure this out.

Other changes to the new version that I ought to mention: Ukraine is now a double dip bonus as it is high population territory as well. If a player takes the Ukraine nationalist route and succeeds in uniting the country against the Soviets, its gonn apay off big time, especially considering the British are there supplying as well.

One downside of this though is that the Ukraine might become the core area of conflict, rather than high pop zone Russia... perhaps they will be both equally an area of conflict. I dunno till Beta I suppose. Alternatively, it might portray the Ukrainian dilemma. Once a player looks to gain major troops for uniting the Ukraine, most players will gang up on that Ukrainian player... presuming they are astute enough. Then again, other players might just be dumb... thus reflecting the error a commander could have made about the Ukraine during the war. All in all, I think its a fair set up though, like all games, a lot depends on the player's ability.

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Re: Russian Revolution 5/9 p. 1

Postby lt_oddball on Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:36 am

Industrial Helix wrote:.... So that's my thinking/reasoning on that, what do you think?




I am glad you give all aspects (design, gameplay, historical relevance) a very good thinking. I see the map is in skilled hands :mrgreen:
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Re: Russian Revolution 5/9 p. 1

Postby iancanton on Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:51 am

Industrial Helix wrote:2) The points that a commander attacks: should they start at a low number or perhaps neutral 1 or no difference at all?

Industrial Helix wrote:Hmm... i see what you mean. I think that I am stuck with a problem of wanting the cities to be very important to the map but then I have troubles with people starting with bonuses.

Industrial Helix wrote:@ Evildim - The problem I have with using the commanders to unlock the high pop bonus is that I don't want commanders to start neutral. I want a player to be assigned a commander and take on that role the commander had during the war. But its a good point and one I shall think on... there's got to be a way to figure this out.

let each region that a commander attacks be called an hq. for the cities or the high-pop areas to give bonuses, we can require that any commander-plus-hq combination is held.

since the 8 commanders are start positions, with open deployment elsewhere, each player is likely to have a slightly different total number of troops in the high-pop area. i cannot immediately see a way round this, unless we specify which regions start with each commander - many mapmakers like chance to have a greater role at the start. the imbalance in total troops might be the lesser of two evils, as long as each player starts with the same bonus.

a historical note: before 1954, crimea was part of russia, not of ukraine. perhaps u can exclude crimea from the ukraine bonus and have the british navy supply odessa instead of crimea?

The agenda of the session of the Presidium of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, which took place January 25, 1954, contained a question about the delivery of the Crimean region to the structure of the Ukrainian SSR. The discussion of the question took only 15 minutes. The participants of the meeting approved the decree, and the region was given away to Ukraine for free.

http://english.pravda.ru/russia/history/19-02-2009/107129-ussr_crimea_ukraine-0

ian. :)
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Re: Russian Revolution 6/2 p. 3

Postby Industrial Helix on Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:45 pm

1) I like it... I'll see what I can do about working it into the map.

2) Well, one possibility I was thinking of was that I could set the High Pop zone as having starting positions, that way it gets sorted at the beginning of the game evenly and outside the rest of the map. But then this presents a problem... the starting positions for the commanders would get grouped in with the high pop zone, destroying the each player gets a commander concept. I wish there was XML for creating specific starting positions for players :(

So regarding the High Pop zone, are the gameplay mods willing to accept that each drop will not be the same and there will be some variance?

I think that if themap stays as it is in regards to this, I can lower the high population zone reward and lower further the Low Pop zone reward so as to emphasize the Commanders, which each player gets a very equal distribution of. Would this be a fair compromise?

3) Interesting note about the Crimean... I'll make the change.

@It_Oddball - Thanks for the support!
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Re: Russian Revolution 6/2 p. 3

Postby iancanton on Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:55 am

Industrial Helix wrote:2) The points that a commander attacks: should they start at a low number or perhaps neutral 1 or no difference at all?

when doing all that cut-and-paste stuff, i didn't paste my answer to this question: neutral-1!

Industrial Helix wrote:So regarding the High Pop zone, are the gameplay mods willing to accept that each drop will not be the same and there will be some variance?

I think that if themap stays as it is in regards to this, I can lower the high population zone reward and lower further the Low Pop zone reward so as to emphasize the Commanders, which each player gets a very equal distribution of. Would this be a fair compromise?

in combination with neutral-1 starts for each hq and underlying neutral start positions for the commanders (so that no-one can start with a commander-and-hq pair, while the underlying neutrals stop someone from having more commanders than his opponents), i believe that lowering the high-pop and low-pop initial troops will lead to a start that is better, or at least no worse, than in dust bowl. i assume that the normal +1 for every 3 regions does not apply (the legend isn't clear on this).

ian. :)
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Re: Russian Revolution 6/2 p. 3

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:19 pm

1) ok.. that sounds good.
2) +1 for three regions does apply in the brown regions, see the middle left rule in the lower legend.

The next version of the map is gonna have some numbers on it to make the initial start obvious, stay tuned.
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Re: Russian Revolution 6/2 p. 3

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:15 pm

Alright, here's the new version:

The ONLY starting positions are the commanders. Each player gets one.
I also removed the Ukraine from double dippin in the high pop bonus... their regional bonus should be enough.

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Russian Revolution map for ConquerClub [07/20/11]: viewtopic.php?f=241&t=116575
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Re: Russian Revolution 6/2 p. 3

Postby MarshalNey on Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:40 am

I don't have much to say other than... holy crap I moan to think that I'll have to wait months to play this map. The gameplay is looking very good.

I do have one question, more historical than anything I guess... the Czech Legion seized trains and used them to get around, or am I wrong? I'm basing this off of a vague memory of seeing an old photo of the Czechs with guns sprouting out of railcars. If that's correct, shouldn't they at least connect to a railroad somewhere?

EDIT: One other thing... it's a bit odd now that I think about it, that the Czechs seem to be less important than the British on this map, even though historically the British had far less impact on the actual fighting.
Last edited by MarshalNey on Thu Jun 17, 2010 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Russian Revolution 6/2 p. 3

Postby theBastard on Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:51 am

MarshalNey wrote:I do have one question, more historical than anything I guess... the Czech Legion seized trains and used them to get around, or am I wrong? I'm basing this off of a vague memory of seeing an old photo of the Czechs with guns sprouting out of railcars. If that's correct, shouldn't they at least connect to a railroad somewhere?


the question is from which year/years are this map. CzechoSlovak legion seized Transiberian rail, but mostly from Ural to Vladivostok.

EDIT: maybe there could by one way attack CzechoSlovak legion to Orenburg...?

Helix, just to know, are cities part of region bonuses? for example: Wilno in Poland, Kiev in Ukraina, Moscow in high population?

about Volhynia - I like your idea in German/Italian Unifications where "striped" territories are bonuses for two regions. did you think to do bonus for Poland/Ukraina +1 for both with Volhynia?
or Poland includes Volhynia, Ukraina, Ukraina includes Volhynia?
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